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exnihilo
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by dominant, but the PCUSA is the largest Presbyterian body.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
Perhaps you’re right. With regards to doctrine, PCA is more Presbyterian than PCUSA. When I say that I mean that if you compare the two to what John Knox actually had in mind when he founded the Presbyterian Church, then you would find that the PCA is much truer to that understanding of Presbyterianism than PCUSA.
I have found that with almost every denomination of Protestant Christianity there is almost always a conservative (true to scripture) branch and an off-the-wall liberal branch.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
You’re right, there are different kinds of Lutherans. I actually attended an LCMS church before I decided to convert to Catholicism and I loved it, they really cared about the scriptures. Before that I had tried a WELS Lutheran church and found them rather kooky. I recall being in a Sunday School class around Easter where the pastor left it an “open question” as to whether the Jews deserved the holocaust because of their rejection of Christ. After he said that, I got up, walked out and never went back to that place. I don’t know if all WELS churches are like that; I hope not.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
Christ’s discourses do make it quite evident that marriage is between man and woman. ‘male and female God created them’ (paraphrasing).
Even with that, Christ wasn’t teaching specifically regarding homosexual situations. I think this is why more and more Protestant denominations are concluding that there isn’t an outright ban on homosexual marriage taught specifically in the Bible.
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SteveVH
Guest
So truth is determined by a democratic vote?
How very tolerant and understanding of them.
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Abu
Guest
Since when has a popular vote by the unqualified defined Christ’s teaching, or any teaching in the Sacred Scriptures? This alone should make all realise that such a sectarian approach in not of Christ who established His Church on St Peter to teach the fullness of His Truth.
Even with the clarity of Christ’s teaching on the reality of building His own Church on St Peter, Protestants ignore many of His mandates, so it is in keeping with that mirage that they ignore the stark biblical injunctions against homosexual behavior which automatically rules out such fake “marriages”.
Therefore,
The absurdity that God supports homosexual activity is easily dispelled as is the fantasy that there is a mere “version” of God, and of “obscure dictums” in the Christ’s own Church.
“And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words…shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10: 14-15). Not only is this perversion condemned in the Old Testament (Gen 19) but more than once Saint Paul lists this sin among those which will exclude someone from Heaven.
God was very clear: “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire . . .” (Jude 7).
Answer by Fr. John Echert on Nov-15-2002 (EWTN):
[Extracts]
‘The New Testament, consistent with the Old Testament, regards homosexual activity as a perversion and as spiritually life-threatening. In particular, St. Paul condemns in the strongest terms the behavior of pagans who failed to recognize the one true God and lapsed into sexual perversity, as we read in Romans:
1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
‘Furthermore, the Apostle lists among those who will not enter the Kingdom of God those who are actively homosexual:
‘6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor).’
‘Actually there are two words in the Greek behind the single RSV word “sexual perverts”, both of which regard homosexuality. The Greek language was able to distinguish between the passive partner of a homosexual union (acting as the female) and the active partner of that union, both of which are found in this text and stand behind the single designation, “sexual perverts” of the RSV.’
‘Hence, any claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was anything other than perverted homosexual behavior is contradicted by the Bible itself.’
tinyurl.com/ojvjnv3
Question
What is the real sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did the church stick to literary interpretation that is causing great suffering and divisions in family on issue of sexual orientation at the expense of historical interpretation?
Answer by Fr. John Echert on May-04-2009 (EWTN):
“The sin of these two cities was clearly homosexual activity and attempts to cast it otherwise are untenable. Not only is this perversion condemned in the Old Testament but more than once Saint Paul lists this sin among those which will exclude someone from Heaven. Sympathy for someone afflicted with this inclination must not extend to acceptance of the activity or fall short of urging someone in such a lifestyle to be freed from it.”
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_Abyssinia
Guest
34,000 Black Churches Break Ties With Presbytarian Church USA After Same-Sex Marriage Allowance
gospelherald.com/articles/54929/20150327/national-black-church-initiative-breaks-ties-with-presbyterian-church-usa-after-same-sex-marriage-allowance.htm
gospelherald.com/articles/54929/20150327/national-black-church-initiative-breaks-ties-with-presbyterian-church-usa-after-same-sex-marriage-allowance.htm
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rcwitness
Guest
I don’t know what is stranger… same sex unions, or “black churches”
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spedteacherita
Guest
Unfortunately that has left a schism in a very large church in our area. Many left because of this decision and started a mission church that is growing by leaps and bounds. It’s sad to see a relatively conservative fellowship hurt by this - many long-time friends and families had no choice but to leave because of this range of views and the falling away from the original doctrine taught within the Lutheran churches.
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Thorolfr
Guest
My own large and welcoming ELCA congregation is growing and is building a larger fellowship hall. Some congregations might lose people over this issue, but they also gain other new people as a result.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
And the idea of gaining new people who are only there because of the church’s socio-political stance, and affirming people in their sin, and have no interest in the actual faith delivered to the saints is a good thing…because?My own large and welcoming ELCA congregation is growing and is building a larger fellowship hall. Some congregations might lose people over this issue, but they also gain other new people as a result.
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Thorolfr
Guest
Believe it or not, but many progressive Christians don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin and we are welcoming LGBT people into our churches because we believe that this is what God demands of us.
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seanman611
Guest
No doubt, this will continue their fast decline into oblivion. I think it is only a matter of time before the mainline churches form a single “united” church of sorts, it’s the only way they can put off the inevitable. In fact, in TEC, I’ve noticed increased interest among the leaders to get into communion agreements. TEC currently has a full communion agreement with the ELCA and a priest sharing agreement with the United Methodists. TEC is also in serious talks with the PC(USA).
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Then you progressively do not believe the Scriptures have any authority for the life of the Christian and do not believe you are under obligation to obey its dictates. In this respect, progressivism is not Christian at all.
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Michael1978
Guest
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires . . . 2 Timothy 4:3
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Thorolfr
Guest
It’s not true that I think that Scripture has no authority, but there is considerable disagreement among scholars about how to interpret various passages of Scripture, including those passages that are traditionally used to condemn homosexuality. The meaning of the words in Greek and the historical context of the passages in question are not as clear as some people suppose. Whether they apply to modern people with SSA in committed relationships is open to dispute.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
Seems like into today’s society, the further removed we are from the time of Christ, the less sure we are of His message?
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Only among scholars who are seeking to justify the position that homosexuality is not sinful. It is amazing that Christians for 2000 years had no difficulty interpreting those passages of Scripture. There is nothing ambiguous about I Corinthians 6:9.
There is nothing confusing about arsenokoites.
There is no indication whatsoever that Scripture would allow for a “committed relationship” (whatever the heck that means) between homosexuals when the very act of sexual relations within the same gender is prohibited. By definition, one cannot erase the sinfulness of an action simply by saying “well, they’re committed.”
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Thorolfr
Guest
You’re right that we are less sure about much of what is in the Bible because we don’t live in the first century and the Greco-Roman or Jewish societies in which it was written. As the British writer L.P. Hartley famously wrote, “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there”. For all of us, looking back to the time of Jesus is like looking at a foreign country which had beliefs and customs we don’t completely understand.Seems like into today’s society, the further removed we are from the time of Christ, the less sure we are of His message?
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Michael1978
Guest
The Church is not unsure of Christ’s teachings, though the world certainly may be. Doctrine does not bend to cultural norms, nor do the teachings of Christ.
The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever. - Isaiah 40:8.
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