Presbyters vs Elders

  • Thread starter Thread starter AnnettefromTX
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AnnettefromTX

Guest
I’m in a discussion with a co-worker regarding Confession to a Priest and one of the biblical examples I used was James 5:14 which states, “is there anyone sick among you? He should ask for the presbyters…” Today we would use the word “priest”. But he reads the KJV and it uses the word “elders” which to him changes the entire meaning.

Is this just a case of semantics (sp?)? Do I now have to change the discussion to which bible is authoritative?

Any suggestions?
 
40.png
AnnettefromTX:
I’m in a discussion with a co-worker regarding Confession to a Priest and one of the biblical examples I used was James 5:14 which states, “is there anyone sick among you? He should ask for the presbyters…” Today we would use the word “priest”. But he reads the KJV and it uses the word “elders” which to him changes the entire meaning.

Is this just a case of semantics (sp?)? Do I now have to change the discussion to which bible is authoritative?

Any suggestions?
Ask him what he thinks and elder is… just an old guy? In Rome, the Greek word presbyter was “Latinized” into praepositos which was the source of the Old English preost, which is now priest.

While the office has developed, there always has been a sort of ordination by the laying on of the hands. This is called the apostolic succession. Protestants, who call just about anybody in their specific church “elder” cannot “pas on” the charism of the spirit through the hands as the Catholic church does.

You will also find that the background and qualifications of the average Protestant elder is usually very low compared to a Catholic priest. In many Protestant denominations that I have had contact with, the elder generally does not know anything of Greek or Hebrew. They usually are only trained in bible study and the particular beliefs of the specific denomination.

Thal59
 
40.png
Thal59:
. In many Protestant denominations that I have had contact with, the elder generally does not know anything of Greek or Hebrew. They usually are only trained in bible study and the particular beliefs of the specific denomination.

Thal59
As a former Presbyterian elder who left the church for the Roman Catholic Church, I would say that your last sentence is correct.

And even that last sentence is a bit too kind in regards to what many elders know. I’ll be honest with you, people voted me onto the Session (i.e. group of elders in a Presby church) because of my last name (well known family in good standing in the community) and my age (they wanted someone “younger” on session- I was 32 at the time- while all the others were over 60).

I prepared for questioning (as they have a right to question me about matters of the faith)- but instead of doint that, they just put hands on me and made me an elder.

You see, in some protestant churches- particularly where attendence is not so good, it becomes a bit of a sham. I can say that with my own “Elder Ordination” it was a bit of a popularity contest… and it was a really small “fishbowl” to pick from.

They didn’t even make sure I knew even the Presbyterian beliefs, they just figured I’d already accepted Christ and agreed with Sola Scriptura and “probably” was “Calvinistic enough”.

Of course, not all protestant churches are like that, but some are.

I know one pastor at a non-denom “Mega-Church” in Pittsburgh who put a guy in a big leadership position who doesn’t even attend except on Christmas and Easter!

…although that man did donate several hundred thousand dollars last calendar year.

To be fair, there’s good, Bible believing Protestants out there who love the Lord, but as the pews empty, leadership is hard to come by… and many churches are desparate… or misled.
 
Clearly there are churches who don’t follow what scripture dictates for qualifications for an elder. But please don’t think all Protestant churches are so shallow as to elect elders simply because numbers are low, family name or because someone gives a lot of money. Scripture is very clear about elders and many of us are obedient to Titus 1.
 
40.png
thogg85:
Clearly there are churches who don’t follow what scripture dictates for qualifications for an elder. But please don’t think all Protestant churches are so shallow as to elect elders simply because numbers are low, family name or because someone gives a lot of money. Scripture is very clear about elders and many of us are obedient to Titus 1.
So does that mean you send for an elder, and he annoints you and forgives you of your sins?
Titus 1:8 - “For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain…”
So you guys have bishops?

Notworthy
 
We have an elder board comprised of men who meet the character qualifications in Titus 1 as well as 1 Tim. 3. We have a pastor who is also on the elder board. Yes the pastor and elders are available for anointing with oil. In Protestant churches they are the spiritual governing board. They deal with matters of running the local church as well as being the spiritual leaders. Since I am not Catholic I don’t know if there is a local spiritual governing board in the local parish church. As you know, Protestant churches do not have confessionals. Although often the pastor is confessed to by parishoneers. He speaks of repentance and God’s forgiveness during these times.
 
Todd Easton said:
Presbyter, elder and priest are synonyms. Check out the footnote for James 5:14 in the Contemporary English Version, a non-Catholic Bible.

Check out Hebrews 8.1,2: “Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high PRIEST, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of Majesty in Heaven, a MINISTER in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord”. As you can see, the words priest and minister are also synonymous, with or without a protestant “footnote”. See also Ne 10:36,39, Ez 44:27,45:4, Joel 1:9,13. Paul was a minister with priesly duties. Romans 15.16. See also Col 1:23,25 and Eph 3:7 Tychicus was a minister(priest) Eph 6:21, Col 4:7, Epaphroditus was a minister(priest) Phl 2:25. Epaphras was a minister(priest) Col 1:7 as was Timothy. 1Tim 4:6.
In light of all this biblical evidence I asked a “Church of Christ” minister why his denomination’s ministers were not priests? He told me I didn’t know Greek so I didn’t know what I was talking about.Sorry Thal59. A church without priests is not a church at all. At least if you follow the teachings of scripture.
BTW. Why do protestants go to a man to get married if only God can join a man and woman together as husband and wife Mark 10:9, but they won’t confess their sins to a man because only God can forgive sins? Mark 2:7
 
40.png
threadkiller:
BTW. Why do protestants go to a man to get married if only God can join a man and woman together as husband and wife Mark 10:9, but they won’t confess their sins to a man because only God can forgive sins? Mark 2:7
The Pastor or judge (people do get married by judges) acts as an agent of God to marry people. This is neccessary for legal reasons. God can not mail you a marrage certificate from heaven.
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
“I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”

Baptism comes from God through the agency of a human.

“I now pronounce you man and wife”

Marriage comes from God throught the agency of a human.

God’s Holy Word comes directly to us through the agency/writings of Paul, John, Peter, etc.— mere humans.

"I forgive your sins in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Confession comes directly from God through a human.

God communicates His grace *directly * to us through others.
 
40.png
allischalmers:
The Pastor or judge (people do get married by judges) acts as an agent of God to marry people. This is neccessary for legal reasons. God can not mail you a marrage certificate from heaven.
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
By what authority does this pastor or judge act as an agent of God? Please give biblical citations. Also, you can’t pray to have your mortal or deadly sins forgiven. 1John 5:16-17. BTW. You’ve ignored the rest of my post. Where is your priesthood?
Do not presume to say I am “forever Baptist”. God can raise up Baptists from the stones on the ground. Matthew 3:9. That’s from one Baptist, John that is, to another.
 
40.png
allischalmers:
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.
It had always been possible to pray directly to God had it not? However, Jesus confers this authority, to forgive sins, to His Apostles, and thru Apostolic succession His Bishops and priests.
drbo.org:
John 20,19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
 
By what authority does this pastor or judge act as an agent of God? Please give biblical citations. Also, you can’t pray to have your mortal or deadly sins forgiven. 1John 5:16-17. BTW. You’ve ignored the rest of my post. Where is your priesthood?\QUOTE]

By the authority of the Word of God—Eph. 4:11-12 And He give some (to be) apostles; some, prophets; and some, evengelist; and some, pastors and teachers.
For the prefecting of the Saints, (thats Christians here on earth) for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ.(thats all christians)

I am forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
40.png
allischalmers:
The Pastor or judge (people do get married by judges) acts as an agent of God to marry people. This is neccessary for legal reasons. God can not mail you a marrage certificate from heaven.
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
So marriage is an act of the State? Doesn’t God’s ordinances precede the state?

Fiat
 
40.png
allischalmers:
By what authority does this pastor or judge act as an agent of God? Please give biblical citations. Also, you can’t pray to have your mortal or deadly sins forgiven. 1John 5:16-17. BTW. You’ve ignored the rest of my post. Where is your priesthood?\QUOTE]

By the authority of the Word of God—Eph. 4:11-12 And He give some (to be) apostles; some, prophets; and some, evengelist; and some, pastors and teachers.
For the prefecting of the Saints, (thats Christians here on earth) for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ.(thats all christians)

I am forever Baptist
allischalmers

Wow! You absolutely refuse to answer the question about authority and you won’t address any of my scripture citations, either in post # 8 or # 11. " But they cried out in a loud voice and STOPPED THEIR EARS…" Acts 7:57. All you can do is respond with Eph 4:11-12 which pertains to the unity of the “body of Christ”. Something you thumb your nose at anyway. So why cite scripture you don’t believe? Unlike you, we as catholics are called to believe every verse of scripture. Every verse is to be interpreted in light of all scripture.because Jesus said “scripture cannot be broken”. John 10:35. Like you did with Eph 4:11-12.
That’s why we know where Christ’s authority on earth abides.
Christ is speaking of the end times, which we are now in, 1John 2:18 when He says “It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and PUTS HIS SERVANTS IN CHARGE, each with his work, and commands the GATEKEEPER to be on watch”. Mark 13:34 I know where these servants are and who this GATEKEEPER(John 10:3) is. I wish you and all my Baptist brothers and sisters knew as well. I’ll give you a hint about how to find this GATEKEEPER. He’s the one with the 'keys" Matthew 16:19, and he’s been keeping watch through succession for two thousand years.
 
40.png
threadkiller:
Wow! You absolutely refuse to answer the question about authority and you won’t address any of my scripture citations, either in post # 8 or # 11. " But they cried out in a loud voice and STOPPED THEIR EARS…" Acts 7:57. All you can do is respond with Eph 4:11-12 which pertains to the unity of the “body of Christ”. Something you thumb your nose at anyway. So why cite scripture you don’t believe? Unlike you, we as catholics are called to believe every verse of scripture. Every verse is to be interpreted in light of all scripture.because Jesus said “scripture cannot be broken”. John 10:35. Like you did with Eph 4:11-12.
That’s why we know where Christ’s authority on earth abides.
Christ is speaking of the end times, which we are now in, 1John 2:18 when He says “It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and PUTS HIS SERVANTS IN CHARGE, each with his work, and commands the GATEKEEPER to be on watch”. Mark 13:34 I know where these servants are and who this GATEKEEPER(John 10:3) is. I wish you and all my Baptist brothers and sisters knew as well. I’ll give you a hint about how to find this GATEKEEPER. He’s the one with the 'keys" Matthew 16:19, and he’s been keeping watch through succession for two thousand years.
If you know the the Bible as well as you think you do then you would realize the even civil authority is given by God. That you would know the Bible tells us to obey those govenment officals that are over us. Would not that mean that judges are Gods agents.
Also it seems to me that it is Catholic that are not interpreting scripture in light of all scripture.
If apostlic succession were true then you could only have one sucessor for each one of the twelve apostles and then only one successor for each of those twelve and then only one successor for each of those twelve and so on and so on, So after 2000 years there would still be only have twelve. Therefore today the Catholic Church would only have twelve priest.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
40.png
allischalmers:
If you know the the Bible as well as you think you do then you would realize the even civil authority is given by God. That you would know the Bible tells us to obey those govenment officals that are over us. Would not that mean that judges are Gods agents.
Also it seems to me that it is Catholic that are not interpreting scripture in light of all scripture.
If apostlic succession were true then you could only have one sucessor for each one of the twelve apostles and then only one successor for each of those twelve and then only one successor for each of those twelve and so on and so on, So after 2000 years there would still be only have twelve. Therefore today the Catholic Church would only have twelve priest.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
It’s the apostolic ministry that has succession, not individuals.
(By the way, my dad is a huge allis chalmers fan. We still have several WD45s, a D19 and an XT190)

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
 
40.png
Fiat:
It’s the apostolic ministry that has succession, not individuals.
(By the way, my dad is a huge allis chalmers fan. We still have several WD45s, a D19 and an XT190)

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
I quess that would mean that all that are called of God to be pastors are of apostolic succession.

(By the way, the big thing around here is restoring old A-C’s)

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
40.png
allischalmers:
I quess that would mean that all that are called of God to be pastors are of apostolic succession.

(By the way, the big thing around here is restoring old A-C’s)

forever Baptist
allischalmers
Yes, but the phrase “man of God,” is used very specifically in the Bible and is in opposition to the ways most Funda-gelicals would understand the term. Contrary to scriptures, not every Tom, Dick and Harry is qualified to be an elder just because he believes he is.

(My brother and I aren’t sure what we’re going to do with my dad’s A-C’s when he’s gone. If you think you might be interested, we’ll have to keep in touch.)

Pace,
Fiat
 
40.png
Fiat:
Yes, but the phrase “man of God,” is used very specifically in the Bible and is in opposition to the ways most Funda-gelicals would understand the term. Contrary to scriptures, not every Tom, Dick and Harry is qualified to be an elder just because he believes he is.

(My brother and I aren’t sure what we’re going to do with my dad’s A-C’s when he’s gone. If you think you might be interested, we’ll have to keep in touch.)

Pace,
Fiat
Yes ! Not any one can be an elders but if God does call someone He will make them well aware of it.

Sorry I stopped restoring tractors about ten year ago. I have one Cub left. My old bones can not take it anymore but thanks for the offer.

forever Baptist
allischalmers (last post for today)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top