Presbyters vs Elders

[Nicene]

allischalmers:

The Pastor or judge (people do get married by judges) acts as an agent of God to marry people. This is neccessary for legal reasons. God can not mail you a marrage certificate from heaven.
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Adam and Eve and their children needed marriage certificates?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Fiat]

allischalmers:

The Pastor or judge (people do get married by judges) acts as an agent of God to marry people. This is neccessary for legal reasons. God can not mail you a marrage certificate from heaven.
In the matter of forgiveness of sin, God has made it possible for us to confess our sins directly to God through pray. This is one of the great benefits of the cross.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Can you show us an example from the New Testament where a person received forgiveness of sins through his own prayer? I’m not trying to be flippant, here, but off the top of my head, I can’t think of any such example. I am aware of verses in Acts speaking of receiving baptism for forgiveness of sins, but I don’t recall any of the apostles saying that they should pray in order to be forgiven.

Fiat

 

[AnnettefromTX]

Fiat:

Can you show us an example from the New Testament where a person received forgiveness of sins through his own prayer? I’m not trying to be flippant, here, but off the top of my head, I can’t think of any such example. I am aware of verses in Acts speaking of receiving baptism for forgiveness of sins, but I don’t recall any of the apostles saying that they should pray in order to be forgiven.

Fiat

Actually, lesser sins can be forgiven directly by God through prayer…

“Anyone who sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, should petition God, and thus life will be given to the sinner. This is only for those whose sin in not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin; I do not say that one should pray about that. True, all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.” 1 John 5:16-17

But “deadly” sins (mortal) must be reconcilled through Confession to a Priest.

Annette

 

[NotWorthy]

Fiat:

Can you show us an example from the New Testament where a person received forgiveness of sins through his own prayer? I’m not trying to be flippant, here, but off the top of my head, I can’t think of any such example.

At the risk of being a wet noodle, would this apply?
Jesus turned around and saw her, and said, “Courage, daughter! Your faith has saved you.” And from that hour the woman was cured. (Mt. 9:22)

Notworthy

 

[Fiat]

AnnettefromTX:

Actually, lesser sins can be forgiven directly by God through prayer…

“Anyone who sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, should petition God, and thus life will be given to the sinner. This is only for those whose sin in not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin; I do not say that one should pray about that. True, all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.” 1 John 5:16-17

But “deadly” sins (mortal) must be reconcilled through Confession to a Priest.

Annette

Certainly, I agree. However, I don’t think the writings of St. Paul or the epistles promote so clearly this evangelical idea of praying a sinner’s prayer, for example, to receive forgiveness for all sins. Instead, it seems that in order to get the “clean plate” status for one’s soul, the apostles preached repentance and baptism, rather than a sinner’s prayer type of approach.

Plus, in the example from 1 John, the direction is clearly one of intercessory prayer and not the sinner himself praying for himself for his own forgiveness. (Again, I’m not saying that we can’t seek forgiveness through prayer for our venial sins…)

Fiat

 

[Fiat]

NotWorthy:

At the risk of being a wet noodle, would this apply?
Jesus turned around and saw her, and said, “Courage, daughter! Your faith has saved you.” And from that hour the woman was cured. (Mt. 9:22)

Notworthy

The woman’s faith healed her physically. There is no mention in the text of her spiritual healing, though I don’t deny that Jesus could not have done that. My point was simply that I don’t see the apostles preaching this sinner’s prayer type of forgiveness.

Fiat

 

[scriabin]

Wasn’t it the woman’s faith in combination with the act of touching Jesus that saved her?

If it was only her faith that healed her then why wasn’t she healed an hour before as she went to see Jesus?

How about 20 minutes before or 2 minutes beforehand? I mean, her faith was strong enough to bring her to Jesus, but it wasn’t until she *actually touched * our Lord that Jesus said, “Your faith has healed you.”

Was her faith qualitatively *different * after she touched Him than before she touched Him?

Maybe a strict literal meaning wasn’t what Jesus was saying, because a strict literal meaning just doesn’t quite fit in this story; in others, though, people don’t seem to do anything in conjunction with their faith.

 

[allischalmers]

1 John 1;9 “If we confress our sins, He (God) Is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.”
So i would say that I could stand in the middle of a corn field with nobody else around and cry with a loud voice to God for the forgivness of me sins and I am sure that God would forgive me all my sins, mortal or not, because that is what he has promised to do.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

(by the way the only deadly sin is rejecting Jesus Christ)

 

[AnnettefromTX]

scriabin:

… but it wasn’t until she *actually touched * our Lord that Jesus said, “Your faith has healed you.” …

I know this is going off in another direction, but I never put this particular scripture passage together with the Eucharist - we know our venial sins are forgiven when we receive Communion. We are praying for healing and forgiveness and actually touching Christ’s physical body. Then our faith heals us!!!

Way cool! I love this kinda stuff.

Annette

 

[Tom]

allischalmers:

If apostlic succession were true then you could only have one sucessor for each one of the twelve apostles and then only one successor for each of those twelve and then only one successor for each of those twelve and so on and so on, So after 2000 years there would still be only have twelve. Therefore today the Catholic Church would only have twelve priest.

Not true, but a good attempt. Remember in Acts, when the Lord appears to Saul? He Himself increases the number of Apostles, doesn’t He?
drbo.org:

Acts Of Apostles 9: 3 And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus; and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him. 4 And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad. 6 And he trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? 7 And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the city, and there it shall be told thee what thou must do. Now the men who went in company with him, stood amazed, hearing indeed a voice, but seeing no man.

He also gave to His Apostles the authority over His Church on earth:
drbo.org:

Matthew 16: 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

There are of course other Bible verses which tell of increasing the number of Bishops, you need them?

 

[Tom]

allischalmers:

1 John 1;9 “If we confress our sins, He (God) Is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.” So i would say that I could stand in the middle of a corn field with nobody else around and cry with a loud voice to God for the forgivness of me sins and I am sure that God would forgive me all my sins, mortal or not, because that is what he has promised to do.
forever Baptist
allischalmers
(by the way the only deadly sin is rejecting Jesus Christ)

God has given us the way to confess our sin and it’s not standing out “in the middle of a corn field with nobody else around and cry with a loud voice to God for the forgivness of me sins and I am sure that God would forgive me all my sins”. Read John 20,23 carefully. “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” It is only thru oral confession that they could retain sins. Jesus gives this authority to the Apostles, not every Christian, and not to ourselves.
drbo.org:

John 20 (Christ’s resurrection and manifestation to his disciples.) 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

 

[Elzee]

1

(by the way the only deadly sin is rejecting Jesus Christ)

You got it…but that begs the question of “how do you reject Jesus Christ”? What exactly does someone have to do or believe in order for him to ‘reject Jesus Christ’?