Present Day Lutheran-Catholic Relations

[Tomyris]

There were some things left over from the last thread, on How I Learned to Love Luther AND the Bomb, or something like that (when I can, perhaps I will post a link, if I am not murdered by an enraged mob of CAF regulars by the time I make it through this OP ), that I think might be worth continuing discussion on. Let me list them, and things we should NOT discuss.

1. Why, when a number of popes have said the path to reconciliation is forgiveness, do Catholics persist in NOT forgiving Luther for, among other things, disobeying the Pope?

2.DO Catholics believe Lutherans when they say Pope Francis is not, personally, the anti-Christ? If you want to find someone who actually DOES say that sort of thing, there is always Google, if you need that in your life.

1. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need from each other for reconciliation to occur?
2. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need to do personally to effect reconciliation?
3. Do you need to personally ask for forgiveness from the other side for your behavior, attitude, thoughts, actions, etc., that are less than Christian perfection? This is Lent, so here I am helping you.
4. I know there are two number 4’s. Now there are three 4’s. . I LIKE the number 4. Now there are six 4’s.seven 4’s. (Stop that, Tomi!)

Things not to discuss:

1. Luther’s personal habits, comments, language, mental condition, or comments about the same or other things about Luther, personally, others have said about him. Personally, I don’t give a rip.
2. Posters who post exhaustively on #1.
3. The mental habits of someone who would write this OP.

There. Now I am going to run and HIDE.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/index.cfm

 

[Thorolfr]

1. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need from each other for reconciliation to occur?

For starters, I think Lutherans would need for the Catholic Church to renounce papal infallibility and papal supremacy.

 

[Magdalena59]

There were some things left over from the last thread, on How I Learned to Love Luther AND the Bomb, or something like that (when I can, perhaps I will post a link, if I am not murdered by an enraged mob of CAF regulars by the time I make it through this OP ), that I think might be worth continuing discussion on. Let me list them, and things we should NOT discuss.

1. Why, when a number of popes have said the path to reconciliation is forgiveness, do Catholics persist in NOT forgiving Luther for, among other things, disobeying the Pope?

2.DO Catholics believe Lutherans when they say Pope Francis is not, personally, the anti-Christ? If you want to find someone who actually DOES say that sort of thing, there is always Google, if you need that in your life.

1. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need from each other for reconciliation to occur?
2. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need to do personally to effect reconciliation?
3. Do you need to personally ask for forgiveness from the other side for your behavior, attitude, thoughts, actions, etc., that are less than Christian perfection? This is Lent, so here I am helping you.
4. I know there are two number 4’s. Now there are three 4’s. . I LIKE the number 4. Now there are six 4’s.seven 4’s. (Stop that, Tomi!)

Things not to discuss:

1. Luther’s personal habits, comments, language, mental condition, or comments about the same or other things about Luther, personally, others have said about him. Personally, I don’t give a rip.
2. Posters who post exhaustively on #1.
3. The mental habits of someone who would write this OP.

There. Now I am going to run and HIDE.

ncregister.com/daily-news/after-five-centuries-of-division-catholics-and-lutherans-consider-their-com/

lutheranworld.org/content/lutheran-roman-catholic-dialogue

 

[MaryT777]

For starters, I think Lutherans would need for the Catholic Church to renounce papal infallibility and papal supremacy.

Lutheran Church would need to denounce the Office of the Pope is anti Christ and the Lutheran Confessions changed to reflect as such.

Lutheran Church would need to accept the number of Sacraments the Catholic Church defines as such based on the Bible.

Lutheran Church (ELCA) would need to accept the morals of the Catholic Church; abortion as unacceptable and homosexuals called to a life of celibacy as supported by the Bible

Lutheran Church would need to accept (ELCA) that women ordination is contrary to the Bible.

It would be helpful if the Lutherans could resolve their own interLutheran conflicts over the above issues so that the Catholic Church could dialogue with one unified Lutheran Church.

Solo scriptura would need to be rejected. It’s been a dismal failure and contrary to the Bible.

There would need to be further discussion with the Confessional Lutherans LCMS
and Wels etc regarding coming to agreement on justification. They did not sign the JDDJ Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the LWF Lutheran World Federation.

Mary.

 

[Thorolfr]

Lutheran Church would need to denounce the Office of the Pope is anti Christ and the Lutheran Confessions changed to reflect as such.

Lutheran Church would need to accept the number of Sacraments the Catholic Church defines as such based on the Bible.

Lutheran Church (ELCA) would need to accept the morals of the Catholic Church; abortion as unacceptable and homosexuals called to a life of celibacy as supported by the Bible

Lutheran Church would need to accept (ELCA) that women ordination is contrary to the Bible.

It would be helpful if the Lutherans could resolve their own interLutheran conflicts over the above issues so that the Catholic Church could dialogue with one unified Lutheran Church.

Solo scriptura would need to be rejected. It’s been a dismal failure and contrary to the Bible.

There would need to be further discussion with the Confessional Lutherans LCMS
and Wels etc regarding coming to agreement on justification. They did not sign the JDDJ Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the LWF Lutheran World Federation.

Mary.

I sure am glad that all my ancestors became Protestants several hundred years ago or I might be a Catholic now

 

[spedteacherita]

From the LCMS perspective:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran-Roman_Catholic_dialogue

The final paragraph:

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) has also participated in the first 9 discussions with the Roman Catholic Church and will also participate in the upcoming 11th round. Unlike the ELCA, however, the LCMS has not come to an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church due to what the LCMS considers to be crucial differences in the understanding of faith, grace, sin, etc. It was not invited to the 10th round of talks by the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

1. Why, when a number of popes have said the path to reconciliation is forgiveness, do Catholics persist in NOT forgiving Luther for, among other things, disobeying the Pope?

It is not up to us to forgive someone long dead for any personal sins. Luther and the 16th century Church each had their flaws.

2.DO Catholics believe Lutherans when they say Pope Francis is not, personally, the anti-Christ?

I am sure that most present day Lutherans do not believe such nonsense.

1. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need from each other for reconciliation to occur?

There are very serious differences on both faith and morals. Example: Seven Sacraments vs. Two. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches cannot compromise on matters of the Apostolic Faith.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Relations are improving, but there is still a ways to go.

 

[Dorothy]

Lutheran Church would need to denounce the Office of the Pope is anti Christ and the Lutheran Confessions changed to reflect as such.

Lutheran Church would need to accept the number of Sacraments the Catholic Church defines as such based on the Bible.

Lutheran Church (ELCA) would need to accept the morals of the Catholic Church; abortion as unacceptable and homosexuals called to a life of celibacy as supported by the Bible

Lutheran Church would need to accept (ELCA) that women ordination is contrary to the Bible.

It would be helpful if the Lutherans could resolve their own interLutheran conflicts over the above issues so that the Catholic Church could dialogue with one unified Lutheran Church.

Solo scriptura would need to be rejected. It’s been a dismal failure and contrary to the Bible.

There would need to be further discussion with the Confessional Lutherans LCMS
and Wels etc regarding coming to agreement on justification. They did not sign the JDDJ Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the LWF Lutheran World Federation.

Mary.

Thank you MaryT777 for listing the above. With God all things are possible!

 

[MaryT777]

Thank you MaryT777 for listing the above. With God all things are possible!

 

[commenter]

I am not sure we can really talk about a single “Lutheranism” anymore, except in a historical sense. In the USA, for instance, the largest Lutheran denomination, the ELCA, is evolving away from its historic roots in terms of doctrinal and moral absolutes, interpretation of scripture, tradition, and what I call the sense of the supernatural. It keeps evolving towards mainline, liberal Protestantism, so that it soon will be almost interchangeable with mainline Presbyterianism, Episcopalianism, United Church of Christ, and others. It is the “Lutheran Department” within the American Mainline denomination, rather than the liberal wing within Lutheranism. It follows the priorities of the media. The media hates the Catholic Church.

The ecumenical dialogues referred to have little relevance, because the ELCA is steadily moving away from Catholicism. The LCMS is different. The main interfaith connection is not ecumenical dialogues, which touch the lives of almost nobody, but things that touch the lives of millions of Christians and non Christians: prolife, family rights in education, religious liberty, the absolutes in doctrine and morality, the Natural Law, Holy Orders, and Scripture and Christian tradition as a guide, rather than trusting in the secular media. This interfaith connection with the LCMS may not be in the official ecumenical dialogues, it’s more important than the dialogues. Catholics and Lutherans standing side by side in the cold in front of the abortion clinic don’t get the media play like theologians gathering at a hotel for lectures and breakout sessions. But that’s where Christ would be.

 

[benjohnson]

Catholics and Lutherans standing side by side in the cold in front of the abortion clinic don’t get the media play like theologians gathering at a hotel for lectures and breakout sessions. But that’s where Christ would be.

Amen!

 

[GKC]

I am not sure we can really talk about a single “Lutheranism” anymore, except in a historical sense. In the USA, for instance, the largest Lutheran denomination, the ELCA, is evolving away from its historic roots in terms of doctrinal and moral absolutes, interpretation of scripture, tradition, and what I call the sense of the supernatural. It keeps evolving towards mainline, liberal Protestantism, so that it soon will be almost interchangeable with mainline Presbyterianism, Episcopalianism, United Church of Christ, and others. It is the “Lutheran Department” within the American Mainline denomination, rather than the liberal wing within Lutheranism. It follows the priorities of the media. The media hates the Catholic Church.

The ecumenical dialogues referred to have little relevance, because the ELCA is steadily moving away from Catholicism. The LCMS is different. The main interfaith connection is not ecumenical dialogues, which touch the lives of almost nobody, but things that touch the lives of millions of Christians and non Christians: prolife, family rights in education, religious liberty, the absolutes in doctrine and morality, the Natural Law, Holy Orders, and Scripture and Christian tradition as a guide, rather than trusting in the secular media. This interfaith connection with the LCMS may not be in the official ecumenical dialogues, it’s more important than the dialogues. Catholics and Lutherans standing side by side in the cold in front of the abortion clinic don’t get the media play like theologians gathering at a hotel for lectures and breakout sessions. But that’s where Christ would be.

Well said.

GKC

 

[namax91]

The problem is, to answer some of your questions I would have to talk about Luther. I will only do it when necessary, and know that I’m not trying to insult him.

1. Why, when a number of popes have said the path to reconciliation is forgiveness, do Catholics persist in NOT forgiving Luther for, among other things, disobeying the Pope?

Are we Catholics not supposed to forgive Luther? I mean he hasn’t done anything to me personally, but sure, I will forgive him.

2.DO Catholics believe Lutherans when they say Pope Francis is not, personally, the anti-Christ? If you want to find someone who actually DOES say that sort of thing, there is always Google, if you need that in your life.

I don’t understand the question. Of course I don’t think Pope Francis is the antichrist. Are you saying that Catholics think that Lutherans think Pope Francis is the antichrist? Unfortunately, I’m going to have to mention Luther here in order to answer your question. Luther himself thought the Pope was the antichrist, or he at least thought Leo X was. law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/againstexecrablebull.html
I guess I never really thought about whether or not modern Lutherans think Pope Francis is the antichrist.

1. What do you Catholics and Lutherans need from each other for reconciliation to occur?

Well, Lutherans would need to realize that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, and that Jesus gave the Pope authority to speak infallibly. I mean, I don’t think Sola Scriptura is actually scriptural. I don’t need to get into a debate about this, because Jim Blackburn and others have already done it. catholic.com/magazine/articles/not-by-scripture-alone
However, apostolic succession and papal infallibility can both be proven by Scripture alone. Matthew 16:18 for the former, and multiple verses that describe the authority of Moses for the latter. (The authority of Moses was given to St. Peter.) youtube.com/watch?v=uMMCzoVC0JY

1. Do you need to personally ask for forgiveness from the other side for your behavior, attitude, thoughts, actions, etc., that are less than Christian perfection? This is Lent, so here I am helping you.

Only Catholics and Lutherans who personally have hurt one another by their behavior, attitudes, etc. need to ask forgiveness. I don’t think I’m responsible for the behavior of Pope Leo X, Tetzel, and others. I will admit that sometimes when I’m frustrated by something done by a modern Protestant I will associate that person with the bad behavior of Protestants in the past, and for that I’m sorry. When I’m thinking clearly, I am not really a believer in guilt by association.

 

[Memaw]

For starters, I think Lutherans would need for the Catholic Church to renounce papal infallibility and papal supremacy.

I think Lutherans would need to recognize the Popes God given role in God’s Catholic Church in order to keep the faith United and True to the teachings of Jesus Christ and all Seven Sacraments. That would mean Unity of Truth. Prayers or true Unity. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Magdalena59]

Lutheran Church would need to denounce the Office of the Pope is anti Christ and the Lutheran Confessions changed to reflect as such.

Lutheran Church would need to accept the number of Sacraments the Catholic Church defines as such based on the Bible.

Lutheran Church (ELCA) would need to accept the morals of the Catholic Church; abortion as unacceptable and homosexuals called to a life of celibacy as supported by the Bible

Lutheran Church would need to accept (ELCA) that women ordination is contrary to the Bible.

It would be helpful if the Lutherans could resolve their own interLutheran conflicts over the above issues so that the Catholic Church could dialogue with one unified Lutheran Church.

Solo scriptura would need to be rejected. It’s been a dismal failure and contrary to the Bible.

There would need to be further discussion with the Confessional Lutherans LCMS
and Wels etc regarding coming to agreement on justification. They did not sign the JDDJ Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the LWF Lutheran World Federation.

Mary.

This. Yes.

I am not sure we can really talk about a single “Lutheranism” anymore, except in a historical sense. In the USA, for instance, the largest Lutheran denomination, the ELCA, is evolving away from its historic roots in terms of doctrinal and moral absolutes, interpretation of scripture, tradition, and what I call the sense of the supernatural. It keeps evolving towards mainline, liberal Protestantism, so that it soon will be almost interchangeable with mainline Presbyterianism, Episcopalianism, United Church of Christ, and others. It is the “Lutheran Department” within the American Mainline denomination, rather than the liberal wing within Lutheranism. It follows the priorities of the media. The media hates the Catholic Church.

The ecumenical dialogues referred to have little relevance, because the ELCA is steadily moving away from Catholicism. The LCMS is different. The main interfaith connection is not ecumenical dialogues, which touch the lives of almost nobody, but things that touch the lives of millions of Christians and non Christians: prolife, family rights in education, religious liberty, the absolutes in doctrine and morality, the Natural Law, Holy Orders, and Scripture and Christian tradition as a guide, rather than trusting in the secular media. This interfaith connection with the LCMS may not be in the official ecumenical dialogues, it’s more important than the dialogues. Catholics and Lutherans standing side by side in the cold in front of the abortion clinic don’t get the media play like theologians gathering at a hotel for lectures and breakout sessions. But that’s where Christ would be.

Agreed.

I think Lutherans would need to recognize the Popes God given role in God’s Catholic Church in order to keep the faith United and True to the teachings of Jesus Christ and all Seven Sacraments. That would mean Unity of Truth. Prayers or true Unity. God Bless, Memaw

Agree.

These comments from Mary, Commenter and Mema hit upon a similar thought and are very true.

It is we a humans that need to line ourselves up with God. We can’t expect God to change His Catholic Church because of our wants and desire for independence.

God bless.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There were some things left over from the last thread, on How I Learned to Love Luther AND the Bomb, or something like that (when I can, perhaps I will post a link, if I am not murdered by an enraged mob of CAF regulars by the time I make it through this OP ), that I think might be worth continuing discussion on. Let me list them, and things we should NOT discuss.

1. Why, when a number of popes have said the path to reconciliation is forgiveness, do Catholics persist in NOT forgiving Luther for, among other things, disobeying the Pope?

Is it possible to forgive Luther while vigorously opposing his doctrines as well as decrying the chaos which has resulted from them?

I think so.

 

[Thorolfr]

Lutheran Church (ELCA) would need to accept the morals of the Catholic Church;…homosexuals called to a life of celibacy as supported by the Bible

Lutheran Church would need to accept (ELCA) that women ordination is contrary to the Bible.

We have a fine woman associate pastor in my church and LGBT people are welcome there as well. These are two reasons that I go to an ELCA church and I’m not the only refugee there from more conservative denominations. There are lots of people in my church who were raised LCMS and have found a home in the ELCA along with several Baptists that I know of (I was raised Baptist) and even some former Catholics. Thank God there is more than one choice of church for us to belong to

 

[namax91]

Thank God there is more than one choice of church for us to belong to

If you became convinced that Jesus Himself only started one Church, would you want to become a member of that denomination?