Present Day Lutheran-Catholic Relations

[total_Catholic]

We have a fine woman associate pastor in my church and LGBT people are welcome there as well. These are two reasons that I go to an ELCA church and I’m not the only refugee there from more conservative denominations. There are lots of people in my church who were raised LCMS and have found a home in the ELCA along with several Baptists that I know of (I was raised Baptist) and even some former Catholics. Thank God there is **more than one choice of church **for us to belong to

But in reality there isn’t. Christ said “I will build my church” not “I will build 50,000 different bodies of believers”. Sheesh. I will give the LCMS some credit for adhering to the Book of Concord as their interpretation of the Bible. ELCA claims to yet you guys have open communion with groups who in no way adhere even remotely to any Lutheran theology.

One day you will see all the unnecessary mess that Luther brought upon all of Christendom. Peace to you.

 

[Magdalena59]

For starters, I think Lutherans would need for the Catholic Church to renounce papal infallibility and papal supremacy.

I think what you are saying is allow Christians to stop following the Magisterium and interpret Scripture and Tradition on their own, as protestants do?

What would that look like? I think we can see. I think history and the position the protestant churches are in right now is what we would see, only on a grander scale. It would be chaos. It would mean every individual would believe what ever they think Scripture means or whatever they want it to mean and we would all be like children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Ephesians 4:14 :sad_yes:

Christ gave us his Church so we could be joined and knit together by every joint and working properly. Ephesians 4:16

God bless.

 

[Indifferently]

It all hinges (or should hinge, if Lutherans truly are Lutheran) on the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

 

[spedteacherita]

It would be helpful if the Lutherans could resolve their own interLutheran conflicts over the above issues so that the Catholic Church could dialogue with one unified Lutheran Church.

Solo scriptura would need to be rejected. It’s been a dismal failure and contrary to the Bible.

There would need to be further discussion with the Confessional Lutherans LCMS
and Wels etc regarding coming to agreement on justification. They did not sign the JDDJ Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the LWF Lutheran World Federation.

Mary.

My pastor has said many times that the LCMS tries to reach out to those Lutheran fellowships that do not accept the Bible as the inerrant and inspired Word of God,and allow actively gay men and women to be ordained as pastors,

That being said, I can’t imagine confessional Lutherans giving up the Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia or Sola fide (I think I spelled them right). I think, seriously, we’ll just have to be “separated” brethren co-existing in a messed up world. I look forward to Christ’s return…then we’ll be done with all of this…

Got to get off this computer…My fingers aren’t working and I’m going cross-eyed.

God bless all!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

But in reality there isn’t. Christ said “I will build my church” not “I will build 50,000 different bodies of believers”. Sheesh. I will give the LCMS some credit for adhering to the Book of Concord as their interpretation of the Bible. ELCA claims to yet you guys have open communion with groups who in no way adhere even remotely to any Lutheran theology.

One day you will see all the unnecessary mess that Luther brought upon all of Christendom. Peace to you.

Some credit!!! Come on, you can give us more than that!! The one thing the LCMS does not do well is to evangelize and share Christ. My local one visits newcomers and visitors from Sunday worship but, for me, I don’t like peeps just showing up at my door. That’s beside the point here…

The LCMS and WELS synods do and have done very well by adhering to our basic foundational doctrines.

 

[Tomyris]

Uh, the idea of the thread was what YOU, personally, could do to help, and what you, personally would need. I didn’t mean for it to go to the denominational level. I can’t change my church’s stance on anything. I don’t think you (singular) can do the same.

Maybe Catholics might learn to like jello mold desserts. I don’t know.

 

[total_Catholic]

Some credit!!! Come on, you can give us more than that!! The one thing the LCMS does not do well is to evangelize and share Christ. My local one visits newcomers and visitors from Sunday worship but, for me, I don’t like peeps just showing up at my door. That’s beside the point here…

The LCMS and WELS synods do and have done very well by adhering to our basic foundational doctrines.

I was in LCMS for a year and I will call bull on this one. The LCMS church I went to had a very outgoing ministry as it relates to prison, presenting a Saturday lunch to the less fortunate and Scripture was read and a sermon at every one of these events. These folks would show up for the stuff but never dart the door. People were flustered but as I told them, just keep doing what we’re doing and let God decide when and how.

I left the LCMS because of a potential falling out with a member on how to evangelize. Half the church, it seemed, wanted to be more evangelical aka fundamentalist, while the more liberal half were even wondering why I had gotten up a vigil one Friday night to pray at an abortion clinic. I got frustrated and left.

I am more than thrilled now to be Catholic again but it just seemed to me that while very confessional to the Book of Concord, a lot of LCMSers have an identity crisis. Many would tell me, “Well, we’re not ELCA” yet when it came to my pro-life vigil, with some, you would have never known. That episode really bummed me out with that church.

 

[rfournier103]

It all hinges (or should hinge, if Lutherans truly are Lutheran) on the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

Interesting take on this. You may be right.

 

[MaryT777]

It all hinges (or should hinge, if Lutherans truly are Lutheran) on the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

That hasn’t panned out. The LWF signed the JDDJ with the Catholic Church coming to some agreement on justification between the two Church bodies. The LCMS and confessional Lutherans said it was a set back for Lutheranism.

Add that to the fact that Justification by faith alone hasn’t kept the Lutheran church unified by any mean. The confessional Lutherans don’t even have altar and pulpit fellowship with the ELCA.

Mary.

 

[spedteacherita]

That hasn’t panned out. The LWF signed the JDDJ with the Catholic Church coming to some agreement on justification between the two Church bodies. The LCMS and confessional Lutherans said it was a set back for Lutheranism.

Add that to the fact that Justification by faith alone hasn’t kept the Lutheran church unified by any mean.* The confessional Lutherans don’t even have altar and pulpit fellowship with the ELCA.*

Mary.

The bottom line for no altar or pulpit fellowship has to do with the ELCA straying from important doctrinal issues. As the Catholic Church doesn’t offer communion to other non-Catholic people we want to make sure people have a fundamental understanding our confessions. As I mentioned in another post we have other Lutheran Synods that do not hold the Bible as the inerrant and inspired Word of God. We understand that the Bible stories are true and actually happened while some other Lutherans do not. One example that my pastor told us was that one group believe that Jonathon and David as well as Ruth and Naomi were actually homosexual partners. That’s unacceptable according to our belief in the inerrancy of the Bible.

I hope I was clear enough…this day has been a crazy one.

Thanks, Mary!

God bless!

Rita

 

[Thorolfr]

We understand that the Bible stories are true and actually happened while some other Lutherans do not.

I must admit that I have to question the literalness of some Bible stories. For example, in Psalms 19:4-5 it says, “In the heavens he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy.”

I’m not sure I believe that the sun comes out of a tent. I also have doubts that Jonah really got swallowed by a giant fish.

 

[KjetilK]

It all hinges (or should hinge, if Lutherans truly are Lutheran) on the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

Why? It is an important question, but it is by no means the most important one. And you won’r find this over emphasis on justification in Confessio Augustana or the Small Catechism.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Why? It is an important question, but it is by no means the most important one. And you won’r find this over emphasis on justification in Confessio Augustana or the Small Catechism.

There’s nothing like having someone from another communion telling you what your communion really is… There is a lot of that around lately.

 

[spedteacherita]

I must admit that I have to question the literalness of some Bible stories. For example, in Psalms 19:4-5 it says, “In the heavens he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy.”

I’m not sure I believe that the sun comes out of a tent. I also have doubts that Jonah really got swallowed by a giant fish.

Hi!!

The Psalms are not a good example as they are poetry and songs. The example you provided in Psalm 19:4-5 really isn’t a good one…I’ve written poetry similar to this using imagery to explain something within my life.

As far as poor Jonah…I can’t help but believe it!! He must have been an awful irritant in that big fish’s stomach to have to “spew” him out. Our God is so amazing that we cannot limit the ability of Him to accomplish such an act as Jonah surviving 3 days in a big fish! We see this also in the resurrection of Lazarus and other people who had died and were brought back to life.

See OP? Even among Lutherans we cannot get together!! I totally don’t see any chance that there will be unity around many of the issues that abound. My thought is that we will need to be satisfied that we understand that Jesus Christ is the only “Way, Truth and Life.”

Have a blessed Sabbath, all!

Rita

 

[Tomyris]

Why? It is an important question, but it is by no means the most important one. And you won’r find this over emphasis on justification in Confessio Augustana or the Small Catechism.

Have you read McGrath’s Iustitia Dei? He makes the argument that Lutherans argue that justification is the most important argument.

He’s Anglican, so here we go again with someone in one Communion telling someone in another what they believe…

 

[Tomyris]

But in reality there isn’t. Christ said “I will build my church” not “I will build 50,000 different bodies of believers”. Sheesh. I will give the LCMS some credit for adhering to the Book of Concord as their interpretation of the Bible. ELCA claims to yet you guys have open communion with groups who in no way adhere even remotely to any Lutheran theology.

One day you will see all the unnecessary mess that Luther brought upon all of Christendom. Peace to you.

The retort here would be that one day you will see all the unnecessary mess that the popes have brought upon all Christendom.

So I would not use that as an argument if I were you.

 

[spedteacherita]

The ecumenical dialogues referred to have little relevance, because the ELCA is steadily moving away from Catholicism. The LCMS is different. The main interfaith connection is not ecumenical dialogues, which touch the lives of almost nobody, but things that touch the lives of millions of Christians and non Christians: prolife, family rights in education, religious liberty, the absolutes in doctrine and morality, the Natural Law, Holy Orders, and Scripture and Christian tradition as a guide, rather than trusting in the secular media. This interfaith connection with the LCMS may not be in the official ecumenical dialogues, it’s more important than the dialogues. Catholics and Lutherans standing side by side in the cold in front of the abortion clinic don’t get the media play like theologians gathering at a hotel for lectures and breakout sessions. But that’s where Christ would be.

 

[KjetilK]

Have you read McGrath’s Iustitia Dei? He makes the argument that Lutherans argue that justification is the most important argument.

He’s Anglican, so here we go again with someone in one Communion telling someone in another what they believe…

Yes, I know that many Lutherans, including Luther himself, taught that. But – as I never tire of repeating – Lutheran doctrine is not decided by asking what many Lutherans, or Luther himself, believes or believed. If you want to know Lutheran doctrine, or the doctrine of a given Lutheran Church, the place to go is the confessions.

The basic confessions are the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, Confessio Augustana, and Luther’s Small Catechism. Some Lutheran Churches, such as the LCMS, also hold to some other confessions (basically the rest of the Book of Concord), but they are not binding in the same way, and most European Lutheran Churches rejected them – especially the Formula of Concord.

The basic confessions – especially Confessio Augustana – do put emphasis on justification through faith, but you will not find in them the kind of emphasis that Indifferently insists on for ‘genuine Lutheranism.’

And as you see here and here, Indifferently doesn’t really know what Lutherans actually teach on justification, as he claims that we teach the calvinistic doctrine of imputed righteousness. The difference is basically that while Calvinists teach that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and that faith is not, Lutherans teach that faith itself is imputed or reckoned for righteousness, following St. Paul: “And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned [imputed] for righteousness.” (Rom 4:5) That basically means that Lutherans see faith as sufficient. But the faith in question is not any old faith, but an active faith, following St. Paul’s point, that the faith which “is of any avail” is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). That itself doesn’t necessarily mean that one must act — that would rule out people who cannot act — but it states that you also need love to be saved, the love of God “poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit” (Rom 5:5, cf. vv.1-11). This love must be lived out according to each person’s ability.

 

[commenter]

Yes, I know that many Lutherans, including Luther himself, taught that. But – as I never tire of repeating – Lutheran doctrine is not decided by asking what many Lutherans, or Luther himself, believes or believed. If you want to know Lutheran doctrine, or the doctrine of a given Lutheran Church, the place to go is the confessions.

The basic confessions are the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, Confessio Augustana, and Luther’s Small Catechism. Some Lutheran Churches, such as the LCMS, also hold to some other confessions (basically the rest of the Book of Concord), but they are not binding in the same way, and most European Lutheran Churches rejected them – especially the Formula of Concord.

The basic confessions – especially Confessio Augustana – do put emphasis on justification through faith, but you will not find in them the kind of emphasis that Indifferently insists on for ‘genuine Lutheranism.’

And as you see here and here, Indifferently doesn’t really know what Lutherans actually teach on justification, as he claims that we teach the calvinistic doctrine of imputed righteousness. The difference is basically that while Calvinists teach that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and that faith is not, Lutherans teach that faith itself is imputed or reckoned for righteousness, following St. Paul: “And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned [imputed] for righteousness.” (Rom 4:5) That basically means that Lutherans see faith as sufficient. But the faith in question is not any old faith, but an active faith, following St. Paul’s point, that the faith which “is of any avail” is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). That itself doesn’t necessarily mean that one must act — that would rule out people who cannot act — but it states that you also need love to be saved, the love of God “poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit” (Rom 5:5, cf. vv.1-11). This love must be lived out according to each person’s ability.

Thank you for this explanation.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Uh, the idea of the thread was what YOU, personally, could do to help, and what you, personally would need. I didn’t mean for it to go to the denominational level. I can’t change my church’s stance on anything. I don’t think you (singular) can do the same.

Maybe Catholics might learn to like jello mold desserts. I don’t know.

As the Lutheran denominations struggle and transform themselves into something less and less recognizable as orthodox Lutheran, we may discover that those of us “left behind” are, and have been, catholic to begin with.