Present Day Lutheran-Catholic Relations

[Topper17]

Hi Mary,

Father K,

I really appreciate your comments on this thread. They are really informative and have cleared up a lot of what has been somewhat confusing to me about Lutheranism.

Mary,

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Tomyris]

Hi Mary,

I wholeheartedly agree.

For once I agree with you.

I think we tend to view Lutheranism through the lens of what we see in the USA, and not through any other mechanism. I appreciate the perspective.

 

[Topper17]

Hi Father,

Thanks for your response.

And moreso, if you do as WELS, and define some specific pope as the anti-Christ, that is bad enough in itself. But if you do as the LCMS, and define the papal office itself as the anti-Christ you are de facto condemning all popes, every individual pope, as an anti-Christ.

I appreciate the information. It seems that I am going to have to research the WELS position that some particular pope was the antichrist. But from my perspective, the positions of both the WELS and the LCMS on the pope are preposterous, and SHOULD cause people to ‘wonder’ about their authority to teach, period.

Given that the Augsburg Confession makes no such claim, it appears to me that the Formula represents Lutheranism completely gone off the rails.

God Bless You Father, Topper

 

[commenter]

For once I agree with you.

I think we tend to view Lutheranism through the lens of what we see in the USA, and not through any other mechanism. I appreciate the perspective.

I had heard legends that there were other places besides the USA, but I had always thought those stories were apocryphal. I’ll research this further. Do they have dragons, etc?

 

[Topper17]

Hi Sel,

I didn’t address this before, but your comment reminded about it. I think it’s very unlikely that there will be any kind of exodus to the WELS. To the ELS or perhaps a “new” synod is much more likely. The difference between WELS and LCMS are significant enough that they aren’t in altar and pulpit fellowship anymore. The most significant issue (that I can recall) is that the WELS don’t view the ministry as a Divine Call, but as a small “v” vocation.

I think it is amazing that these two ‘Formula Lutheran’ denominations won’t even commune with each other. Who is it that these two (WELS and LCMS) will actually commune with from among American Lutheranism? I think that maybe the answers is possibly – nobody.

I agree though that an exodus from a disintegrating LCMS to WELS is unlikely. They don’t communion with WELS, but then they don’t commune with the Church either, so I’m not sure where that will leave those who become dissatisfied enough to leave. Where could they ‘go’ without compromising their beliefs? I think that the answer might be – nowhere.

Lutheran Professor Eric W. Gritsch:

“In North America, Lutherans have a membership of about 7.5 million….The largest church is the ELCA, with about 4.7 million members…….The second largest church is the LCMS, which has about 2.4 million members. The third largest church is the WELS, with about 400,000. ……
**
[with] regard to religion, it could be said that whenever a religious group experienced internal strife, its conservative part left the main-line group, and founded another ‘denomination’ – simply stated, ‘Let’s leave rather than debate holy issues’. Lutherans are part and parcel of this American experience.” /B]Gristch, “A History of Lutheranism”, pg. 252

It seems to me that this is part of Luther’s personal ‘heritage’. As we know, Luther never compromised on a matter of doctrine, and rather than debate it, he was much more likely to simply state his position, and condemn as being evil all those who disagreed.

You don’t debate holy issues with people who have developed a less than holy position. You simply tell them what it right and what is wrong, but you don’t stoop to arguing with then about it. In order to maintain your own purity and credibility, you simply avoid them and then start a hopefully even more pure communion.

Possibly what will happen is that some portion of the LCMS will fracture off, adopt some new name, form their own synod, which of course will be represented as the ‘True Lutheranism’. Obviously that ‘True Lutheranism’ continues to be defined, by some at least, as a smaller and smaller percentage of Lutheranism overall, which worldwide has roughly 75 million ‘adherents’.

Gristch goes on to describe the 20th century rift between the LCMS and the United Lutheran Church in America and then describes the messy affair known as ‘Seminex’. He then goes on to quote:

“One of the main questions confronting confessional Lutherans currently is not their unity – the Missouri Synod to the contrary notwithstanding – but their particularity in the ecumenical scene. Lutheran unity, fifty years overdue, will come eventually because Missouri cannot forever escape the implications of its own confession. But meanwhile, a burden of concern rests upon those who see the ecumenical heart of the Lutheran Confession of the gospel as God’s Word to the whole world.” Nelson, “The Lutherans”, pg. 539-40

I think that the challenge facing the Church in its ecumenical efforts is determining who it should expend effort in dialoging with. Its kind of like trying to nail jello to the wall. Furthermore, if the LCMS and WELS refuses to commune with each other, how in the world could they realistically be expected to come to any kind of significant agreement on doctrine with the Catholic Church. Personally, I believe that unity with Lutherans is going to have to take place one soul at a time. This is not to say that the Dialogue isn’t worthwhile, but just that the expectations as to what it can reasonably be accomplished needs to be scaled WAY BACK.

God Bless You Sel, Topper**

 

[Picky_Picky]

I had heard legends that there were other places besides the USA, but I had always thought those stories were apocryphal. I’ll research this further. Do they have dragons, etc?

Yep, it’s a sad business. There used to be millions of the beasts roaming the plains here in Britain, but then the Americans discovered us in 1492 and soon there were wagon trains going up and down the Great North Road shooting dragons by the thousand. Almost extinct now – just a few left in Wales.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yep, it’s a sad business. There used to be millions of the beasts roaming the plains here in Britain, but then the Americans discovered us in 1492 and soon there were wagon trains going up and down the Great North Road shooting dragons by the thousand. Almost extinct now – just a few left in Wales.

Well, where else would a self-respecting dragon choose to lair, other than Wales? Cornwall? Pleeeeease!

 

[KjetilK]

Yes, but the fact is that rather than being based on catholic and apostolic tradition, it was primarily based on Luther’s radical ideas, but then many of them were ‘de-emphasized’ so as to properly ‘sell’ the Confession.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. Luther has never had the level of authority that many non-Lutherans imagine he has, or had.

In addition, though, whereas Lutherans defined themselves as ‘belonging to the Church, together with Roman Catholics’, the Church, meaning the Catholic Church did not exactly see it that way.

And?

It would be one thing if the Catholic Church had agreed that the Augsburg Confessions Communions were part of the ‘Church overall’, but it did not. Shouldn’t that have been, and still be, a cause of concern?

Maybe, maybe not.

I understand, but how do you explain the huge doctrinal dislocation that occurred in the 16th century, which by all appearances was a huge departure from the faith of the Church from which Lutheranism sprung?

Can you be more precise?

Does this mean that any new ‘tradition’ can simply spring up and define ITSELF as being Catholic and Apostolic and that is the end of it? Is it completely meaningless as to whether the Church from which it sprung disagrees? This would seem to invalidate the authority of the Church to condemn the beliefs and teachings of ALL of the heresies of the prior 15 centuries?

No, and in Confessio Augustana pretty much every claim is backed up by reference to Scripture, the Fathers and/or the Canons.

With all due respect Father, I have seen a lot of people talk of the ‘primacy’ of the Bishop of Rome, but when you ask them what that means in concrete terms, it is ONLY a symbolic title, which means absolutely nothing.

He has primacy. But he does not have supremacy. A president has primacy in his nation, but he is not - or should not be - a supreme leader.

Are you saying that the supremacy of the Pope gives him some real authority over all of Christendom, or is it just that he deserves an infinitesimal amout of additional ‘respect’?

Primacy and supremacy is not the same thing.

 

[Selah_KY]

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. Luther has never had the level of authority that many non-Lutherans imagine he has, or had.

I don’t know whether to or just …

 

[KathleenGee]

In regards to the 95 theses of Luther and then the divisions within Lutheranism alone, and looking at so many different churches anyone can see down any street in America…that is how it is here…you either believe Christ instituted His visible Church or He did not. Any theology contradicting the Church appears to only lead to incohesion and disunity…and eventually the breakdown of Christian society.

 

[Topper17]

Hi Tom,

We have heard a lot on what Lutherans should do for reconciliation.

What are Catholics willing to change?

It seems to me that Protestantism thrives on the generalities and feelings, but fails when things get specific and exact. As an example, let’s explore what the Church ‘should do’ to on the issue of the number of Sacraments in it’s effort to reconcile with Lutheranism.

As you know the Church believes that there are seven Sacraments. Luther pared that number down to either two or three. That difference STILL divides the Church from Lutheranism.

So………what should the Church be willing to do to reconcile with the Lutherans? Should it offer to split the difference and jettison 2 or 3 of the Sacraments? If so, which ones would you personally suggest Tom?

Let’s say that in desperation to reunify with the Lutherans, the Church actually does ‘modify’ the number of Sacraments and proposes the number 5. Do you think that the Lutherans are going to be willing to ‘move up’ to 5 from 2 or 3 in order to reconcile with the Church?

Let’s say that Lutherans and the Church negotiate and agree on 5 Sacraments. Then what? What about all of those Protestant communions that insist that there are NO Sacraments, at least not in the way that the Church thinks of them? What should the then reunited Lutheran and Catholic communions do, specifically and exactly to placate those who hold that there are NONE? Should they then simply abandon the idea of Sacraments altogether? Should Christianity be governed by the principal of least common denominators? I ask because that seems to be exactly where Protestantism in general in headed.

Should we simply reduce Christianity to the belief in the Trinity and have everybody commune with each other on the basis of that very much ‘simplified’ version of Christianity? Should the Catholic Church just jettison a lot of its beliefs in order to be ‘ecumenical’? For that matter, why stop with the Trinity? Why should the Unitarians be “left out”?

What is it specifically and exactly you think the Catholic Church should ‘do’ Tom in regards to the number of Sacraments? I am looking for a specific proposal that is going to ‘satisfy’ everyone. Unless you have a proposal that could actually work then possibly your question about what the Church ‘should do’ might not be the right question.

God Bless You Tom, Topper

 

[Topper17]

Hi Sal,

Thanks for your response.

I don’t know. Perhaps a new synod will be formed. No honest Lutheran is believing their particular synod is going to last forever.

That is exactly my point. Here you admit that Lutherans understand that their synods are simply creations of man, which means that the doctrines that differentiate them are also of man. What you are saying is that ‘honest Lutherans’ don’t really believe that their synods are being led by the Holy Spirit to teach what they teach. I happen to agree though. After all, I have never been able to get a coherent explanation as to why their various synods should be viewed as being superior, doctrinally, to all of those ‘other’ synods.

That already happened. There are Lutheran synods who are Lutheran in name only, and they accuse us similarly. We have seen ample evidence of that on this forum. Those synods are crashing and burning even faster than the confessional ones. I hope the implosion comes swiftly and decisively for them as well.

I agree. The further from the teaching of the Church, the faster the crashing and burning. The Confessional synods are ‘closer’ to the Mother Church, so they don’t ‘crash and burn’ at the same rate as those ‘others’ who are not so ‘Confessional’. The ‘Formula’ is in a whole differ category though.

Don’t know. I as a Lutheran do find Oriental Orthodoxy extremely attractive due to its stability and claims. I would perhaps opt in to an OO church if my particular synod decided to ordain homosexuals etc.

I hear that a lot. If you don’t mind my asking, which Lutheran communion do you belong to?

God Bless You Sal, Topper

 

[Tomyris]

Hi Tom,

Tom is a man’s name…

It seems to me that Protestantism thrives on the generalities and feelings, but fails when things get specific and exact.

Unsubstantiated opinion…

As an example, let’s explore what the Church ‘should do’ to on the issue of the number of Sacraments in it’s effort to reconcile with Lutheranism.

That’s not what I asked. What are Catholics willing to change? You seem more interested in what the Catholic Church is UNWILLING to do.

If you must, it’s Tomi. Short for Tomyris, pronounced To-mu-RISH. Look her up.

 

[Topper17]

Hi Sel,

Thanks for your response.

I can’t say that I agree. Only because no faith journey is ever a straight line. The Holy Spirit has a way of following people around and putting obstacles in their way to force them to look behind them.

I understand, but I wasn’t speaking of anyone’s individual faith journey, but rather the overall trend or direction of Protestantism overall. My point is that it is much ‘easier’ to move ‘down the scale’ to atheism from a place farther than nearer the Church. In other words, the distance from Unitarianism to atheism is much less than from Catholicism to atheism. The further you move down the scale, the less important doctrine becomes, and the less important doctrine, the closer you are to unbelief.

For a very long time I have struggled with WHY God would allow so much denominational disunity, but when I look at the settling of America and how many of the new denominations of the 1800s were started, I see that they were necessary to keep the faith moving westward. Granted, that came from my place as a Protestant. Some of those first shoots off of the Methodist and Presbyterian churches, came because the mother church couldn’t supply their pastoral need. If those settlers would have been Catholic, would they have had the same struggle? In any case, their actions DID bring revival to the mid-south and changed our history. If it reminded people of Christ, I can’t see it as a bad thing.

First of all, there were European Catholics in New Mexico long before Jamestown or Plymouth Rock, so it wasn’t ‘necessary’ for Protestantism to be the faith which moved Christianity westward. Of course the ‘contributions’ of the Spanish to Christianity in the western states is largely ignored by the standard historical accounts.

I think a person’s impression of what has been going on within the synod is really dependent on who they know and where they live. I was happily oblivious until we started homeschooling. And even then, the divisions never impacted us personally. Until we moved here. The discord where we were was so thick you could feel it when you walked in the door. But the members will talk about every other problem EXCEPT this one that’s simmering, waiting to boil over.

As a long time Catholic Home Schooler, and I do mean LONG TIME, I will tell you that being a Catholic home schooler very much reinforced my beliefs as a Catholic, but then that would be a subject for another thread. Do you know many other Catholic Home Schoolers?

God Bless You Sel, Topper

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This is a bit dated and I don’t know if there have been more recent joint declarations (Other than the one of Justification):

Roman Catholic/Lutheran Joint Commission Statement
on the Augsburg Confession

PREFACE

The Joint Roman Catholic/Lutheran Commission of the Vatican Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation has produced a statement on the Confessio Angustana (CA - Augsburg Confession.) This statement was unanimously approved by the members of the Commission. It is our hope that the unanimity expressed in it may hasten the hoped-for unity of our churches.

Augsburg, Feb. 23, 1980
HANS L. MARTENSEN
Bishop of Copenhagen,
Denmark GEORGE A. LINDBECK
Professor, Yale University
New Haven, USA

Excerpts:

Joint studies by Catholic and Lutheran theologians4 have shown that the contents of the statements of the Augsburg Confession in large measure fulfill this intention and to this extent can be regarded as an expression of the common faith.

This conclusion is reinforced by a whole series of recent studies and researches in a wide variety of disciplines, including a number of joint studies:

• Biblical and patristic studies have made us aware of the richness of our common Christian heritage; we are now better placed to judge the extent to which the arguments adduced from Scripture and tradition in the controversies of the 16th century were valid or are now in need of correction.
• Historical studies have thrown new light on conditions in church, society and economics at the time of the Reformation, showing us the extent to which political and economic factors also contributed to estrangement and division.
• Research into doctrinal history in the Middle Ages, the Reformation and, above all, the Confutatio, a refutation of the Confessio Augustana, composed at the Emperor’s request and the Augsburg union negotiations of 1530, has produced insights favorable to a more objective view of earlier controversies, to a defusing of mutual condemnations, and to a new evaluation of unions already achieved at that time.

Against the background of these studies researches, we are able to appeal to the Augsburg Confession when we say:
Together we confess the faith in the Triune God and the saving work of God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, which binds all Christendom together (CA 1&3). Through all the disputes and differences of the 16th century, Lutheran and Catholic Christians remained one in this central and most important truth of the Christian faith.

And

Honesty in our dialogue on the Augsburg Confession also compels us to admit that there are still open questions and unresolved problems, among them the following:

• The Confessio Augustana does not adopt a position on the number of the sacraments, the papacy, or on certain aspects of the episcopal order and the church’s teaching office.
• The Confessio Augustana naturally makes no mention of dogmas which have only been promulgated since 1530: the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Pope (1870); the gracious preservation of the Virgin Mary from original sin (1854) and her bodily assumption into heaven (1950).

 

[KathleenGee]

Tomyris…Yes you are a woman…sense it in your tone…but seeing all your various deep thinking and challenging questions to what we ought to do…what can you do for reunion among all Chrisitians?

Point is the Church has the full deposit of faith and the physical presence of Christ among us, and as well, the history and communion of saints, all the prayers and litanies and processional devotions…it would be hard for me to compromise any of these.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you must, it’s Tomi. Short for Tomyris, pronounced To-mu-RISH. Look her up.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris

Iran’s past, present and future are all filled with violence and bloodshed, aren’t they?

 

[Tomyris]

Tomyris…Yes you are a woman…sense it in your tone…but seeing all your various deep thinking and challenging questions to what we ought to do…what can you do for reunion among all Chrisitians?

Point is the Church has the full deposit of faith and the physical presence of Christ among us, and as well, the history and communion of saints, all the prayers and litanies and processional devotions…it would be hard for me to compromise any of these.

One thing I do outside this forum is challenge people when they make statements about Catholic belief that aren’t true or charitable. Or listen to someone who has left the Catholic Church for all the wrong reasons, and I will say something like ‘you should be here for the right reasons, not because you haven’t and won’t forgive so-and-so for such-and-such. Or because we have better music or a better youth program.’

That’s me. Catholic Apologist.

I think learning what the real issues of separation are, and what the real beliefs on both sides are is important, and recognizing there are sincere believers in Christ on both sides, brothers and sisters if you will, and working towards understanding are things I do, which is why I am here. I also try to explain to Catholics sometimes that what they think Protestants believe is not correct.

 

[Tomyris]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris

Iran’s past, present and future are all filled with violence and bloodshed, aren’t they?

That is the story of every country, though.

Cyrus conquered the Jews, and Tomyris killed Cyrus. Me taking the name is like Piglet calling himself Church Norris.

 

[Tomyris]

Point is the Church has the full deposit of faith and the physical presence of Christ among us, and as well, the history and communion of saints, all the prayers and litanies and processional devotions…it would be hard for me to compromise any of these.

I wasn’t thinking compromise.