Present Day Lutheran-Catholic Relations

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomyris
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Randy, this is out of character for you. You usually don’t discount the sincerity of fellow posters here.

When a Lutheran tells you that we have valid sacraments, feel free to argue theologically or logically with us. But I don’t think it’s chariatable to doubt our sincerity for we rely on God’s steadfast promises to His church.

My $.02 ( 0.16 kr )
Ben-

I don’t doubt his sincerity, and I have applauded his desire to serve the Lord repeatedly in this thread.

My issue is whether someone who believes in transubstantiation and desires to be a priest can serve the Lord best as a Lutheran pastor (with orders that are questionable) or as a Catholic priest (in full communion with the successor of Peter).

I mean, if you want to be a priest, be a PRIEST. 👍
 
Oh Oh, Randy. Now you’re on the list where your character is a topic of discussion
Not the subject.

Mary.
Mary,

I’ve gotten used to it…this is where a lot of these threads eventually wind up. 😉
 
=Randy Carson;12914431]That’s the public line, anyway. :rolleyes:
Hi Randy. My take is to take them at their word.
Which does not require bishops to attend each other’s ordination ceremonies, does it? :nope:
No, but it certainly lends to the unity the communion is intending to attain.
And that is where the rubber really meets the road.
Not surprising that this is a Catholic view. Sure, Lutherans would love for the Catholic Church to accept as valid our orders, and therefore our sacraments, but that fact that it doesn’t has no impact on our certainty regarding our clergy and sacraments.

Jon
 
Hi Randy. My take is to take them at their word.

No, but it certainly lends to the unity the communion is intending to attain.

Not surprising that this is a Catholic view. Sure, Lutherans would love for the Catholic Church to accept as valid our orders, and therefore our sacraments, but that fact that it doesn’t has no impact on our certainty regarding our clergy and sacraments.

Jon
Yep.

GKC
 
Oh…almost forgot.

I provided quite a bit of material in support of the papacy as you requested.

Any thoughts?
Yes. You have posted this MANY times before. It has been refuted and debunked and is not worth reading.

And there are Forum rules about this sort of thing.
Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2
Default Multiple consecutive posting
In the spirit of the rule: Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (including replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message) I’d like to suggest that no one be allowed to post multiple consecutive postings in order to get around the posting limit.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=134775
 
That’s the public line, anyway. :rolleyes:

Which does not require bishops to attend each other’s ordination ceremonies, does it? :nope:

And that is where the rubber really meets the road.

It’s true that folks have explained Porvoo to me with this same spin before, but that does not mean that I was mistaken or misrepresenting what the REAL purpose of Porvoo was all about.
Nasty and cynical. You must have the right explanation, which is that everyone is standing around waiting for Rome to speak.

News flash: we aren’t.
 
Final question: If Rome rules that the Church of Norway does not have valid orders (even after Porvoo), how will you respond?
By examining the arguments presented.
Acts 15
The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Notice in this passage that Paul and Barnabas examined the arguments presented by those who were teaching circumcision. In fact, not only did they examine the arguments, but they disputed and debated over them.

In the end, however, Paul and Barnabas did not simply decide to ignore the matter and go on about their way doing and teaching as they thought best. They submitted themselves to the central authority of the Church by travelling to Jerusalem. There, the matter was discussed, and Peter gave a final ruling.

Now, it is possible to pay no mind to the matter of the validity of CoN ordination - it’s been ignored for almost 500 years. But in light of the biblical precedent established in Acts 15, I don’t see how anyone can simply say that he would “examine the arguments” and then, I gather by inference, do as he deems appropriate if those arguments are not convincing. IOW, he would ignore the decision of Rome already reached and continue on as before.

Paul and Barnabas submitted to the Council of the Church and to Peter, the head of the Church, and it is my belief that these God-fearing men would have done so even if the Council had ruled against them regarding circumcision.

You would not do likewise?

And if not, isn’t this Protestantism at its core? 🤷
 
Hi Randy. My take is to take them at their word.

No, but it certainly lends to the unity the communion is intending to attain.

Not surprising that this is a Catholic view. Sure, Lutherans would love for the Catholic Church to accept as valid our orders, and therefore our sacraments, but that fact that it doesn’t has no impact on our certainty regarding our clergy and sacraments.

Jon
Everyone wants to be Catholic, Jon, but submitting to someone with real authority culls out the wannabes from the “will be’s”. 😛

But I cover a different angle in post #559.
 
Acts 15
The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Notice in this passage that Paul and Barnabas examined the arguments presented by those who were teaching circumcision. In fact, not only did they examine the arguments, but they disputed and debated over them.

In the end, however, Paul and Barnabas did not simply decide to ignore the matter and go on about their way doing and teaching as they thought best. They submitted themselves to the central authority of the Church by travelling to Jerusalem. There, the matter was discussed, and Peter gave a final ruling.

Now, it is possible to pay no mind to the matter of the validity of CoN ordination - it’s been ignored for almost 500 years. But in light of the biblical precedent established in Acts 15, I don’t see how anyone can simply say that he would “examine the arguments” and then, I gather by inference, do as he deems appropriate if those arguments are not convincing. IOW, he would ignore the decision of Rome already reached and continue on as before.

Paul and Barnabas submitted to the Council of the Church and to Peter, the head of the Church, and it is my belief that these God-fearing men would have done so even if the Council had ruled against them regarding circumcision.

You would not do likewise?

And if not, isn’t this Protestantism at its core? 🤷
Peter did not give a final ruling. The council did, under the leadership of James. That’s not to diminish Peter’s role. In fact, if one recognizes that the council had the final say, and that the leadership was someone other than Peter, that makes his statement all the more powerful.

Jon
 
Hi Randy. My take is to take them at their wo

Not surprising that this is a Catholic view. Sure, Lutherans would love for the Catholic Church to accept as valid our orders, and therefore our sacraments, but that fact that it doesn’t has no impact on our certainty regarding our clergy and sacraments.

Jon
But this seems to be the only thing you could say…it does not matter…and it goes against early church Tradition…that there be properly consecrated and ordained bishops and priests…at he least, you do not have bishops…and it goes what Ignatius of Antioch said…where be bishop is, there is the cc.
 
Nasty and cynical. You must have the right explanation, which is that everyone is standing around waiting for Rome to speak.

News flash: we aren’t.
Yes, you are not…because you have already a built in animosity towards the pope and rome…🤷

What matters is what you say…correct,
 
Peter did not give a final ruling. The council did, under the leadership of James. That’s not to diminish Peter’s role. In fact, if one recognizes that the council had the final say, and that the leadership was someone other than Peter, that makes his statement all the more powerful.

Jon
Jon…more animosity towards the pope…residual of the anti christ again…perhaps.

Be that as it may…may I suggest that you review acts 10 and 11…Pete had already pretty much decided the circumcision issue prior to the council.
 
But this seems to be the only thing you could say…it does not matter…and it goes against early church Tradition…that there be properly consecrated and ordained bishops and priests…at he least, you do not have bishops…and it goes what Ignatius of Antioch said…where be bishop is, there is the cc.
What it goes against is canon - regular order, rule - but it is not unprecedented. Presbyter ordination is a. valid part of western Church history presaging 1530.

Jon
 
Peter did not give a final ruling. The council did, under the leadership of James. That’s not to diminish Peter’s role. In fact, if one recognizes that the council had the final say, and that the leadership was someone other than Peter, that makes his statement all the more powerful.

Jon
Jon-

I’m pretty sure you’ve seen this before…Tomyris will undoubtedly note that I have posted it often…the last paragraph is new, however, as I have uncovered an additional related argument.

So, I post for the benefit of the lurkers who might be led astray if I remain silent.

Peter, James and the Council of Jerusalem

Many non-Catholics claim that Peter could not have been the head of the earthly Church or “pope” because they believe that it was James, not Peter, who gave the final decision concerning circumcision of the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15. This position indicates a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of the council. Mark Bonocore, a noted Catholic apologist, addressed this misunderstanding in his debate with Jason Engwer in 1999.

Regarding the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, I pointed out in my [opening statement] how Peter gives the definitive teachings and how, after he speaks, all debate comes to an end. However, Engwer rejects this, citing the amendments given by James, and says how James is the only one to render “judgment.” Well, first of all, it must be noted that James bases his remarks on Peter’s teaching:

“Brothers, listen to me. Symeon (i.e., Peter) has described how …” (Acts 15:13-14).

Secondly, look at what James actually says in relation to his “judgment”:

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles” (Acts 15:19).

Well, who is this “we”? Who was “troubling the Gentiles”? Certainly not Peter (Acts 10:44-49, 11:1-18, 15:7-10). Certainly not Paul or Barnabas. So, who? Acts 15:1 tells us:

“Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised …, you cannot be saved.”

It was the Jewish faction under James (bishop of Jerusalem) that was troubling the Gentiles (Acts 15:5, Gal 2:12).

Thus, James is speaking for them, not for the whole council. Indeed, that’s why his remarks are recorded at all—to show that the leader of the Jewish faction subscribed to the decisions of the council, and so silence the Judaizers who Paul will encounter later (Titus 1:10-11).*

*Taken from: Mark Bonocore v. Jason Engwer: Was the Papacy Established by Christ? (bringyou.to/apologetics/debate13.htm)​

In addition to Bonocore’s comments, I would point out that as leader of the church in Jerusalem, James was the head of a congregation which counted among its members many priests and Pharisees who still held to their Jewish roots and believed that Gentiles must become Jews through circumcision in order to become Christians. I refer you to the following:

Acts 4:36-37
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Acts 6:7
7So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Some from among this group had gone to Galatia and upset the Gentile believers there.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

From this, we can see that the Council of Jerusalem was divided into two camps: those who believed the Gentile converts should be circumcised and those who did not. Peter addresses the former with these words:

“Now then, why do you [Judaizers] try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:10-11)

James addresses them, also:

“Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon (note that James even used Peter’s Hebrew name when speaking to the Judaizers) has described to us (James must be speaking here to the believers from Jerusalem since those from Galatia would already have been familiar with God’s work in that province!) how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself…19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we (the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem) should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them…” (Acts 15:13-20)

Thus, after hearing Peter’s doctrinal pronouncement, James rose to speak and addressed those from his own flock whom he knew would have the hardest time accepting Peter’s decision. James accepted Peter’s teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might be tempted to doubt that the leader of the “Judaizers” really had accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council that circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles.

One other point…you may recall that James insisted on a prohibition against eating the meat from strangled animals. Does anyone pay any attention to that ruling of James? If not, what does that say about James’ real significance at the council? That his words were not terribly binding?
 
Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
Randy, if you don’t mind. I highlighted in red, Paul’s strong statement about needing to lambast Peter head to head, face to face. The reason is that Paul wants the Early Church to know Peter’s importance that his behaviour might shake up the Faith negatively, since Peter also established Antioch, this was important to Paul to notify Peter. On top of that, Antioch was the place when followers of Christ were** first **called Christians.

MJ
 
Nasty and cynical. You must have the right explanation, which is that everyone is standing around waiting for Rome to speak.

News flash: we aren’t.
Nasty and Cynical? My oh my! (Never YOU of course, right?)

Actually I do believe that K cares a lot if Rome believes he has valid orders/ AS for he’s sure spending a TREMENDOUS amount of time on the issue.

I actually believe we’d be better off as Christians as a whole if everyone did stand around and wait for Rome to speak instead of get their Bibles out and form their own doctrine, faith and morals.

Mary.
 
Yes, you are not…because you have already a built in animosity towards the pope and rome…🤷

What matters is what you say…correct,
Each man his own Pope in this case. I Know better than who? What authority does an individual have on his own to determine doctrine? The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Catholic Church.

Mary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top