Present Day Lutheran-Catholic Relations

[Randy_Carson]

You mean he’s not a ninja?

Jon

Sssssh!

 

[commenter]

As you see, this is from a secular source, and the word presiding bishop is not used in any official publications. You might say that she is presiding in a practical or organisational manner, which is more clear in the body of the article, where it is pointed out that she oversees the business of the Church of Norway. She has no immediate episcopal power outside of her own diocese.

No, and as I think I’ve said before, in the Church of Norway any priest can refuse, by means of Canon Law, to concelebrate with either a male priest (or bishop) ordained by a female bishop, or a female bishop or a womanpriest (to use the terminology of William Oddie), ordained by either a female or male priest. And the right does not simply extend to ‘keeping away.’ If a womanpriest wants to celebrate mass in my parish, I can refuse (as the pastor). That is mostly because we are a national Church (not a state Church), and if these regulations weren’t around, the Church of Norway would loose hundreds of priests.

I do not believe that women can be ordained. But that doesn’t mean that I cannot stay in the Church of Norway. Throughout Church history, we have had heretic bishops.

That puts you as pastor in some potentially delicate situations (Catholic pastors also have more delicate situations than ever before). You have my prayers for your ongoing ministry.

 

[Stilldreamn]

That puts you as pastor in some potentially delicate situations (Catholic pastors also have more delicate situations than ever before). You have my prayers for your ongoing ministry.

Delicate indeed! Staying in place, praying for the church and trusting in God’s protection has not been a typical Lutheran response in any era. He has my prayers as well.

 

[Topper17]

Hi Father K,

Which brings us back to the point of disagreement: I do not recognize that the Bishop of Rome has jurisdiction in or over the Church of Norway, or the Norwegian realm.

With all due respect, this brings us back to the main source of our disagreement. You may not recognize the Bishop of Rome as having jurisdiction in the ‘Norwegian realm’, but as you know, until the mid 16th century, the Bishop of Rome DID have jurisdiction in Norway. This leads us to the question as to the validity of the power which dislodged Rome as having authority in Norway.

This of course leads us to Luther and his ‘authority’ to rebel against the Catholic Church. By what (supposedly valid) authority did Luther oppose the teachings of the Catholic Church?

I’ll make you a deal. The Church of Rome can validate our orders, and we can validate theirs.

Honestly I am not sure how serious this comment was but it does force me to ask if you think that the Church of Norway questions the validity of the Catholic orders.

But if Rome does it, its all OK?

Jerusalem probably had jurisdiction. Rome does not have jurisdiction in Norway.

Given the history of the Reformation, and the fact that jurisdiction over Norway was wrested away from Rome, it would seem that that “process” of the change of jurisdiction needs to be justified by the Church of Norway. What is the justification for the tossing out of Roman authority in Norway?

Ultimately it comes down to whether Luther was doing ‘God’s Work’ when he revolted against the teachings of the Catholic Church, or whether he was simply another in a long line of men whose followers came to bear his name as a way to identify their ‘brand’ of Christianity.

God Bless You Father K, Topper

 

[MaryT777]

Hi Father K,

With all due respect, this brings us back to the main source of our disagreement. You may not recognize the Bishop of Rome as having jurisdiction in the ‘Norwegian realm’, but as you know, until the mid 16th century, the Bishop of Rome DID have jurisdiction in Norway. This leads us to the question as to the validity of the power which dislodged Rome as having authority in Norway.

This of course leads us to Luther and his ‘authority’ to rebel against the Catholic Church. By what (supposedly valid) authority did Luther oppose the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Honestly I am not sure how serious this comment was but it does force me to ask if you think that the Church of Norway questions the validity of the Catholic orders.

Given the history of the Reformation, and the fact that jurisdiction over Norway was wrested away from Rome, it would seem that that “process” of the change of jurisdiction needs to be justified by the Church of Norway. What is the justification for the tossing out of Roman authority in Norway?

Ultimately it comes down to whether Luther was doing ‘God’s Work’ when he revolted against the teachings of the Catholic Church, or whether he was simply another in a long line of men whose followers came to bear his name as a way to identify their ‘brand’ of Christianity.

God Bless You Father K, Topper

Interesting post as usual, Topper.
Mary.

 

[Peter_J]

Why would the PNCC require that CoN priests be ordained unconditionally?

I don’t know the answer (and admit that I haven’t read your whole conversation) but seeing this ^^ question brings up a question of my own: Is it really surprising that the PNCC didn’t recognize CoN ordination? It seems to me that the remarkable thing would have been if they *did *recognize it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

No, and as I think I’ve said before, in the Church of Norway any priest can refuse, by means of Canon Law, to concelebrate with either a male priest (or bishop) ordained by a female bishop, or a female bishop or a womanpriest (to use the terminology of William Oddie), ordained by either a female or male priest. And the right does not simply extend to ‘keeping away.’ If a womanpriest wants to celebrate mass in my parish, I can refuse (as the pastor). That is mostly because we are a national Church (not a state Church), and if these regulations weren’t around, the Church of Norway would loose hundreds of priests.

I do not believe that women can be ordained. But that doesn’t mean that I cannot stay in the Church of Norway. Throughout Church history, we have had heretic bishops.

Probably.

I think the concern for you sooner than later will be of ‘creeping incrementalism’. This has been played out already in the TEC, PCUSA, CoE, etc. You know how it plays out at the end.

About the ability to refuse, what happens if - for example - if your male bishop while not necessarily against WO in principle, is against it in practice for this moment (or if he changes his mind while in office, which has happened to others), but out of decorum or charity allows your female bishop to celebrate in your parish? Can you refuse?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Turning an act of generous acknowledgement and kindness between an Orthodox and Lutheran church into a polemic seems rather impetuous.

One can easily google what several Orthodox hierarchs warned the CoE against over and over on the subjects of WO and SSM. The Orthodox stand couldn’t be clearer.

antiochian.org/node/17953

oca.org/questions/priesthoodmonasticism/ordination-of-women

tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/ordofwom/

theinnerkingdom.wordpress.com/2008/10/26/women-in-the-church-by-bishop-hilarion-alfeyev/

ryanphunter.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/metropolitan-kallistos-on-womens-ordination-homosexual-orientation-and-same-sex-unions/

 

[Peter_J]

Another example of their desire to correct what they perceive to be your shortcomings.

Turning an act of generous acknowledgement and kindness between an Orthodox and Lutheran church into a polemic seems rather impetuous.

What, are you new to Internet forums or something?

Heh, but in all charity, I think it’s fair to suppose that the Orthodox were very much mindful of “shortcomings” in your theology, policies, etc etc. Heck, in my experience they are even critical of (if you can imagine) Roman Catholics!

 

[benjohnson]

What, are you new to Internet forums or something?

Heh, but in all charity, I think it’s fair to suppose that the Orthodox were very much mindful of “shortcomings” in your theology, policies, etc etc. Heck, in my experience they are even critical of (if you can imagine) Roman Catholics!

The fact that they called us a ‘Church’ had us floored - that we even had enough merit for consideration flabbergasted us. Our two communities have become somewhat close - and the nature of the relationship is rather comfortable as I detect no paternalistic mindset. They very much like several of our hymns and our psalm intonation.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The fact that they called us a ‘Church’ had us floored - that we even had enough merit for consideration flabbergasted us. Our two communities have become somewhat close - and the nature of the relationship is rather comfortable as I detect no paternalistic mindset. They very much like several of our hymns and our psalm intonation.

Be careful, some of us Easterners are good at that. Next thing you know, you’ll be standing for hungry for 4hrs on a Sunday wondering where all the instruments went

 

[Peter_J]

The fact that they called us a ‘Church’ had us floored - that we even had enough merit for consideration flabbergasted us. Our two communities have become somewhat close - and the nature of the relationship is rather comfortable as I detect no paternalistic mindset. They very much like several of our hymns and our psalm intonation.

Putting humor aside (or as far aside as I ever do in this crazy world we call a Web), I think that is great.

Personally, a decade or so ago I got into the habit of visiting a local Orthodox parish every other week or so. I stopped after a while, not because of any problem in the parish but because I felt like they made my presence there too much about whether I would convert or not. (Granted I’m opening a bottle of worms about what “too much” means in that context. )

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Be careful, some of us Easterners are good at that. Next thing you know, you’ll be standing for hungry for 4hrs on a Sunday wondering where all the instruments went

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t know the answer (and admit that I haven’t read your whole conversation) but seeing this ^^ question brings up a question of my own: Is it really surprising that the PNCC didn’t recognize CoN ordination? It seems to me that the remarkable thing would have been if they *did *recognize it.

And presumably, it would be a remarkable thing if the Orthodox recognize it? And the Catholics?

But to hear some tell the story, it should be intuitively obvious that Norwegian Lutherans are validly ordained…if not from 1536 then at least since Porvoo.

 

[benjohnson]

Be careful, some of us Easterners are good at that. Next thing you know, you’ll be standing for hungry for 4hrs on a Sunday wondering where all the instruments went

We Lutherans make for resonable converts - we’re sometimes accused of singing well.

 

[benjohnson]

One can easily google what several Orthodox hierarchs warned the CoE against over and over on the subjects of WO and SSM. The Orthodox stand couldn’t be clearer.

Agreed! We Lutherans appreciate the Orthodox steadfast and loving proclamation of the Gospel on these issues.

 

[Peter_J]

We Lutherans make for resonable converts - we’re sometimes accused of singing well.

Indeed. And, considering how many Lutheran churches have, shall we say, gone the same way as the Anglicans, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if we someday see an “Ordinariate” ICWR made up of former Lutherans. (Not that I have any particular country in mind, but there are probably a dozen or so countries where it could conceivably happen.) The downside, of course, is that so many people have the impression that Ordinariates mean that Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism and the 1993 document Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion no longer apply. (See also Cardinal Kasper’s clarification about Ordinariates.)

 

[Picky_Picky]

And presumably, it would be a remarkable thing if the Orthodox recognize it? And the Catholics?

But to hear some tell the story, it should be intuitively obvious that Norwegian Lutherans are validly ordained…if not from 1536 then at least since Porvoo.

I don’t recall you being asked to apply your intuition – I think Fr K said that if you were in doubt you could examine the form, matter and intent of CofN ordinations, whereas my advice was that if you are in doubt you should just ask your priest.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t recall you being asked to apply your intuition – I think Fr K said that if you were in doubt you could examine the form, matter and intent of CofN ordinations, whereas my advice was that if you are in doubt you should just ask your priest.

If the Catholic Church determines that only males may be ordained, then any “church” which ordains females is possibly violating at least one and possibly two of those criteria.

 

[GKC]

If the Catholic Church determines that only males may be ordained, then any “church” which ordains females is possibly violating at least one and possibly two of those criteria.

No, only intent would possibly be violated; the intent facere quod facit eccelsia. An invalid subject would not necessarily say anything about the validity of the form or the matter.

We’ll assume for the sake of the example that the minister is also valid.