S
SyroMalankara
Guest
So is Luther condemning himself - since, as servant to His Bride, Peter rejected the advances of Luther - unlike Adam who allowed the serpant to advance to his bride?
- Status
B
benjohnson
Guest
Not at all - the keys were given to the church and are retained by the church. No Lutheran has ever absolved themselves - we go to our pastors.Part of the discourse of the keys is the authority to bind and loose…so if we have he power of the keys…we individually bind and loose also…in essence you are then saying each individual is his own pope…
B
benjohnson
Guest
A Catholic may think that about us. Lutherans maintain that our churches are a valid continuation of the western church - and (I suppose) that our confessions were in service to His Bride.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Does each priest have the same level of authority to bind and loose? Each laymen?
I posit that while each baptized person has the authority, the level and scope is limited to one’s state in life.
K
KjetilK
Guest
No, what he says is that bishops and priests are given the power of the keys, in their ordination. Part of that is that they can forgive or retain sins.Part of the discourse of the keys is the authority to bind and loose…so if we have he power of the keys…we individually bind and loose also…in essence you are then saying each individual is his own pope…
T
TertiumQuid
Guest
I mean, “there.” A tragic spelling blunder…Yeah, I wouldn’t go their either if I were you.
B
benjohnson
Guest
In the Lutheran tradition, the sins that are confessed by the penitent are forgiven by God by the authority of the priest given by God. The sins that are withheld by the penitent are retained by the penitent.
As far as I know, there is no sin that the priest can’t announce the forgiveness of if the penitent is sincere in their confession.
I don’t think I really can answer that without a whole bunch of research - we Lutherans are so well trained to go to our priests that the question hasn’t really come up.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Is that strictly LCMS, or does ELCA, WELS, DoNA, etc all have the same praxis?I don’t think I really can answer that without a whole bunch of research - we Lutherans are so well trained to go to our priests that the question hasn’t really come up.
S
Stilldreamn
Guest
WELS and LCMS are the same, not sure about ELCA and ELDoNA. But since I’m not a **called and ordained **servant of the Word, I cannot say “I forgive you all your sins” -
“Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the Word,announce the grace of God to all of you,and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus
Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
I can forgive my brother or sister, but that is not the office of the keys.
S
steido01
Guest
The Confessional synods, yes. Because we catechize. Hard.
In fact, the ELS (which is in full fellowship with WELS) emphasizes the importance of receiving Absolution from a called and ordained minister to the point that they even have a setting of the Divine Service in their hymnal which allows for individual Absolution at the altar rail. The mechanics are similar to good ol’ kneeling communion.
That said, it is God, and not our ministers, who administers Absolution. Our pastors simply announce it. They are the ones called to do so, not laymen.
M
MaryT777
Guest
I have been to a few LCMS divine worship services (Hope I said that correctly) as a visitor long ago and they did a general confession in the service. The Pastor said the words you said above right during the worship service which would seem not to necessitate then private confession.
Is that how it’s normally done? If so do people make appts for private confession with the Pastor. I might think that’s not a usual thing then.
Mary.
T
Thorolfr
Guest
In the ELCA, pastors also give general absolution during the service by saying, “As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Right? I mean, the guy who runs that site is so '90’s apologetics, you know?Yeah, I wouldn’t go their either if I were you.
I mean, all the great debates - Madrid v. White, Sungenis v. anybody, White v. everybody, etc - took place in the 90’s.
Today, White has his niche audience, Catholic Answers has theirs, Steven Ray is a tour guide, Sungenis is … I dunno what Sungenis is.
We all, on both sides, owe a debt of gratitude to those who fought those battles because we learned so much, but after all the sound and fury, I think a lot of the protagonists of that decade have mellowed considerably or accepted their limitations…or both.
What do you think?
K
KjetilK
Guest
If that follows, then it also follows for the Roman Catholic liturgy, in which the priest, after the general confession (the confiteor), says:
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
(Amen)
Note that the words are different, yes, but both are prayers that God forgive the person(s) who have just uttered the confession, and both are in the subjunctive mood (if I recall my grammar correctly).
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
I can see the argument that the keys reside in each bishop, but I cannot see the reasoning that it resides with each and every priest qua priesthood. The priest is a delegate (vicar) of the bishop and his authority lies with his bishop. Period. The bishop can say, priest A may only say Mass, while Y may not hear confessions, Z may not preach. The bishop holds the keys as to having the fullness of the priesthood.
P
Peter_J
Guest
Hi. Could you elaborate further? If priest A went ahead and said mass anyhow, would it be invalid?
G
GKC
Guest
Priest A can say Mass, in the hypothesis
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
I would think it would be a grave sin, “invalid” perhaps by Latin standards, forbidden (maybe graceless and sinful) by Eastern. Same as a priest who said Mass while out of Communion from an Apostolic Church - is it valid? I don’t know but I wouldn’t want to take the risk.
I’ll bet a canonist would know the ‘final answer’ - is it invalid for a priest not authorized to hear confession? I think so, except in an emergency where authorization is default… same for blessing marriages - not ‘valid’ without authority actually by Latin canon law, not sure how the East view is though, probably somewhere between not invalid and invalid/grave.
K
KjetilK
Guest
And I agree. I was just pointing out what Luther actually said, which was, well, misrepresented by pablope. I myself agree that the keys reside in the Church, led by a bishop, as a successor of the apostles, cf. Matt 18:18. And that is how the Church of Norway is governed. No one can licitly perform priestly duties in the Church of Norway without the express permission of the bishop.
S
Stilldreamn
Guest
Private confession is strongly encouraged but not required in order to receive the Eucharist. Years ago as a member of a WELS Lutheran church I remember having to announce my intention to receive communion to the pastor. Again, you were welcome to make confession or not at that time and it was a prime opportunity for him to address your personal spiritual needs.
- Status