Presentation of Mary

[Bubba_Switzler]

There seem to be two traditions of Mary and Joseph. On the one hand, we have the common view that they were a normal betrothed couple. Mary becomes pregnant, and then has to explain this to Joseph who, for some reason, swallows her story and marries her anyway. This is the story we tend to see in the movies.

But there is another tradition, that Mary was not simply virginal but in fact was dedicated to a virginal life by her parents in gratitude to God for giving them a child at so late an age. And that Joseph was a widower who, understanding this, never expected to have conjugal relations with her.

One problem with the second story is that it was written somtime around 150AD. Another problem is that there seems to be scant precedence for this practice (only some tangential references in the OT).

However, the second story generally seems far more reasonable and interesting.

My question is this: why is it not well known? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a nativity story or movie that took this approach. (If you know of one, let me know.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_Mary

 

[DavidFilmer]

Another problem is that there seems to be scant precedence for this practice (only some tangential references in the OT).%between%

I did some research into this many years ago (pre-Internet). Unfortunately, I cannot cite my sources (I’ve forgotten), but I remember the basic thrust of my conclusions.

There is some evidence that young girls were “presented” to the Jewish Temple to act as servants, helping with the cooking and cleaning and other basic chores. This is nothing like the “presentation” of male children (which was a spiritual ceremony).

The girl was returned to her family when she reached puberty, so that she could marry and live a “normal” life. She was not “cut off” from her family during her period of service - she could visit and receive visits as her work schedule allowed.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Some of the Essenes if I recall took vows of celibacy and were highly regarded for it by other Jews, so it is certainly not unheard of. I have heard this tradition as well; I will try and do some digging.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

David, Nathan, thanks for your contributions.

What’s interesting is that I don’t ever remember hearing this in Catholic religious classes. I can’t remember where I first heard of this alternative narrative but it was relatively recently.

So I guess my next question is this: is this a “teaching” of the CC? Or just a bit of trivia of interest only to scholars resting, as it does, on a later gospel?

There is some evidence that young girls were “presented” to the Jewish Temple to act as servants, helping with the cooking and cleaning and other basic chores. This is nothing like the “presentation” of male children (which was a spiritual ceremony). The girl was returned to her family when she reached puberty, so that she could marry and live a “normal” life. She was not “cut off” from her family during her period of service - she could visit and receive visits as her work schedule allowed.

If you can find this again I’d love to see the source.

Some of the Essenes if I recall took vows of celibacy and were highly regarded for it by other Jews, so it is certainly not unheard of. I have heard this tradition as well; I will try and do some digging.

This raises another interesting point: the most we know about John the Baptist and the Essenes comes not from the Bible but from Josephus. I don’t think he links the two but they both were described as fringe movements outside orthodox Jewish circles.

Was Mary’s family perhaps involved in the sects?

 

[thistle]

There seem to be two traditions of Mary and Joseph. On the one hand, we have the common view that they were a normal betrothed couple. Mary becomes pregnant, and then has to explain this to Joseph who, for some reason, swallows her story and marries her anyway. This is the story we tend to see in the movies.
**
But there is another tradition, that Mary was not simply virginal but in fact was dedicated to a virginal life by her parents in gratitude to God for giving them a child at so late an age. And that Joseph was a widower who, understanding this, never expected to have conjugal relations with her.**One problem with the second story is that it was written somtime around 150AD. Another problem is that there seems to be scant precedence for this practice (only some tangential references in the OT).

However, the second story generally seems far more reasonable and interesting.

My question is this: why is it not well known? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a nativity story or movie that took this approach. (If you know of one, let me know.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_Mary

It IS well known. However this story is only found in the Protoevangelium of James which the Church does not consider to be inspired whereas the Gospel stories are inspired. Its pretty obvious to me that I should believe the inspired Word over the uninspired.

 

[DavidFilmer]

So I guess my next question is this: is this a “teaching” of the CC?

No, absolutely not. This material came from a period in which I was doing a lot of study (via hardcover books) about the historical setting of the Gospel, reading many books such as “The Life and Times of Jesus Christ” (ie, simply history books, which make no claim to divine inspiration). It was in one such book that I came across this reference - the only reason it caught my attention was because a protestant coworker had, some months earlier, accused the Catholic Church of placing a “doctrine” (the “presentation of Mary”) on equal footing with the “Presentation of Jesus” (Candlemas) where therefore “proved” that Catholics put Mary on equal footing with Jesus. I had never heard of the “Presentation of Mary” (and this was pre-Internet, although I had Prodigy ), so I did not know how to respond. Unfortunately, I came across this information too late - my coworker had moved on.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It IS well known. However this story is only found in the Protoevangelium of James which the Church does not consider to be inspired whereas the Gospel stories are inspired. Its pretty obvious to me that I should believe the inspired Word over the uninspired.

I don’t think the two are in conflict. The Protoevangelium of James just adds details not found in the core gospels.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, absolutely not. This material came from a period in which I was doing a lot of study (via hardcover books) about the historical setting of the Gospel, reading many books such as “The Life and Times of Jesus Christ” (ie, simply history books, which make no claim to divine inspiration). It was in one such book that I came across this reference - the only reason it caught my attention was because a protestant coworker had, some months earlier, accused the Catholic Church of placing a “doctrine” (the “presentation of Mary”) on equal footing with the “Presentation of Jesus” (Candlemas) where therefore “proved” that Catholics put Mary on equal footing with Jesus.

But I guess the question is this: inspired or not, official dogma or not, is it believed to be credible by the CC?

The reason this is interesting is because the CC does teach that Mary was ever a virgin, not just a virgin at Jesus birth. It’s not at all remarkable that Mary would be a virgin prior to marriage. It is most unusual to claim that Mary would never experience conjugal relations in marriage. (Conjugal relations in marriage is not a sin, after all, it’s a requirement of marriage.)

But the Protoevangelium of James provides a reasonable explanation.

I had never heard of the “Presentation of Mary” (and this was pre-Internet, although I had Prodigy ), so I did not know how to respond. Unfortunately, I came across this information too late - my coworker had moved on.

I would hazzard to say that most Catholics are unfamiliar with it.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But I guess the question is this: inspired or not, official dogma or not, is it believed to be credible by the CC?

Sorry, I thought I made this clear. This is absolutely NOT a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was something I read in a history book. And please don’t confuse my source with others who claim that such a “presentation” entailed a lifetime vow of chastity (I have never encountered any such reference in any source I have read). My source said that girls “did their time” as Temple servants, and were then free to marry and lead “normal” lives.

It is most unusual to claim that Mary would never experience conjugal relations in marriage. (Conjugal relations in marriage is not a sin, after all, it’s a requirement of marriage.)

It is a requirement of Sacramental marriage (which was a unknown concept until (the adult) Jesus introduced it).

One might posit that Mary, by virtue of her Immaculate Conception, had Sacramental capacity to enter into a Sacramental marriage, even though she was not Baptized. But the same argument could not be made for Joseph - and it takes two to tango.

I know where you are trying to go, and I would like to go there as well, but I don’t think you can finance the journey with this approach.