Preternatural & Paranormal - the traditional approach?

[Iotaunum]

I have read many accounts of the Supernatural experiences in the lives of the saints - Miracles etc, and also of the preternatural activity - exorcisms, demonic infestations, obsession, possession etc. In most of the older accounts it is the clergy who are involved in investigating, discerning and providing the remedy for a disturbance which is demonic in origin. However, recent times have seen an explosion in the number of “lay demonologists” and paranormal investigators etc. This is one thing, since many are outside the Church - but I have come across quite a few who call themselves “lay religious demonologists/investigators” and claim to be Catholics. I have a few questions:

1/ Why do some bishops and priests (not mentioning names) make use of these "lay demonologists (Catholic or not) who use various methods including the use of “mediums” “sensitives” “cleansers” etc who do not have a clue about traditional Catholic theology concerning these matters?

2/ Traditionally have there been any equivalents of these “lay demonologists” who were Catholic and orthodox in their views and assisted the clergy, or did the Church always leave it to the clergy alone?

3/ Why do non Catholics in great numbers ask for a Catholic exorcism in driving out demons when they clearly reject Catholic teaching, the authority of the Church and even Christ Himself in some cases. Should the Church comply with these “investigators” when they would just as readily ask shaman or voodoo priest if a Catholic were not available?

4/ What about the sedevacantist priests/bishops who perform official exorcisms. If the cases are real, do they not have the power due to lack of authority or are they given supplied jurisdiction in these cases? I’m talking about serious cases where a prayer in the name of Christ by anyone would not be sufficient - only an exorcism would be of use.

5/ Why is it that a lot of people who claim to be Catholic use mediums and paranormal investigators now when they have troubles instead of going to the Church directly? What are the Bishops and priests doing to combat this?

6/ When was the last time the power of the Devil, false apparitions or exorcisms were mentioned from the pulpit at the Mass you attend?

I am looking foward to reading everyones opinions.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Hi lotaunum. You have asked some good questions. I could offer answers in the form of guesses or opinions, but, based upon the rigor of your questions, I suspect that you already know anything that I might write.

 

[Celticnovice]

In response to # 6:

I heard a Newman Center Priest (at a very large American University) preach about the dangers of demons back in my college days, which was early 2000s. I wish I could remember more of the homily to share here.

This same Priest also gave talks on the subject to the community.

 

[Iotaunum]

Hi lotaunum. You have asked some good questions. I could offer answers in the form of guesses or opinions, but, based upon the rigor of your questions, I suspect that you already know anything that I might write.

Your opinions would be most welcome, as are everyone elses. I guess this is a bit of a niche subject. I would like more opinions on the sedevacantist exorcism situation in particular. I would have thought they lacked authority, but at the same time I have heard of convincing cases of demonic possession in which the person was exorcised by a sedevacantist priest or bishop using the Roman Ritual.

 

[asd72]

A Solemn Exorism Rite can should only be performed by a Priest appointed by his Bishop.

Lay persons can offer prayer to deliver a person from evil, which is referred to as a deliverance prayer or ministry.

I’m not sure about the lay demonogists you claim are used by bishops. Are you speaking from first hand knowledge that this is happening?

 

[Celticnovice]

Your opinions would be most welcome, as are everyone elses. I guess this is a bit of a niche subject. I would like more opinions on the sedevacantist exorcism situation in particular. I would have thought they lacked authority, but at the same time I have heard of convincing cases of demonic possession in which the person was exorcised by a sedevacantist priest or bishop using the Roman Ritual.

God can use any means necessary to heal his children. I recently heard a Priest explain that miracles attributed to Medjugorje DID NOT make Medjugorje legitimate in the eyes of the Church. I would believe the same idea holds in regards to sedevacantist miracles. God truly knows the heart of the persons involved.

 

[MtnDwellar]

1/ Why do some bishops and priests (not mentioning names) make use of these "lay demonologists (Catholic or not) who use various methods including the use of “mediums” “sensitives” “cleansers” etc who do not have a clue about traditional Catholic theology concerning these matters?

I only know of one Catholic lay demonologist, David Considine. He does have a psychic member of his team. He has worked with Catholic Exorcists and has a certification from a bishop. His situation is rare. I was very skeptical when I first heard of him. I know a person who he has helped. Kathy Krongard wrote about a book about her demonic experiences, which included help from Considine. Apparently he is legit.

2/ Traditionally have there been any equivalents of these “lay demonologists” who were Catholic and orthodox in their views and assisted the clergy, or did the Church always leave it to the clergy alone?

Traditionally speaking, exorcism is the responsibility of clergy. Considine does not remedy cases of possession.

3/ Why do non Catholics in great numbers ask for a Catholic exorcism in driving out demons when they clearly reject Catholic teaching, the authority of the Church and even Christ Himself in some cases. Should the Church comply with these “investigators” when they would just as readily ask shaman or voodoo priest if a Catholic were not available?

I can see two reasons. First, shaman and voodoo priests are not listed in the yellow pages. Second, due to Hollywood, Catholic priests are well known for exorcisms.

4/ What about the sedevacantist priests/bishops who perform official exorcisms. If the cases are real, do they not have the power due to lack of authority or are they given supplied jurisdiction in these cases? I’m talking about serious cases where a prayer in the name of Christ by anyone would not be sufficient - only an exorcism would be of use.

I can’t speak about sedevacantists specifically, but heretics in general can cast out demons in the name of Jesus. The disciples griped about it. Christ told them, that if they are not against Him, then they are for Him.

5/ Why is it that a lot of people who claim to be Catholic use mediums and paranormal investigators now when they have troubles instead of going to the Church directly? What are the Bishops and priests doing to combat this?

I have two answers for this. First, they have watched television and believe that psychics and investigators are the right answer. Secondly, the unfortunate truth is that if they approach their local pastor, he probably will not know what to do. He may refer the person to the diocese who also does not know what to do (my experience). If the diocese does get involved, they move very slowly. Depending upon how acute the problem is, a victim may quickly run out of patience and seek help elsewhere.

6/ When was the last time the power of the Devil, false apparitions or exorcisms were mentioned from the pulpit at the Mass you attend?

Ummm. I think never??? It’s unfortunate. Satan has been mentioned, but his power is only described in general terms. It is definitely not enough information.

 

[Iotaunum]

God can use any means necessary to heal his children. I recently heard a Priest explain that miracles attributed to Medjugorje DID NOT make Medjugorje legitimate in the eyes of the Church. I would believe the same idea holds in regards to sedevacantist miracles. God truly knows the heart of the persons involved.

I know what you are saying, however I guess I could re-phrase the question like this: Does someone who rejects the authority of the Pope and the Bishop of his diocese explicitly ever have the authority needed to perform a major exorcism? It would seem that they do not and that the devil may even taunt them during the exorcism, but on the other hand there are some cases I know of in which seedevacantists have performed exorcisms with favourable outcomes. Is jurisdiction supplied? Can it every be supplied in such a case?

Also, in regards to Medjugorje - it is obviously fraudulant and people need to listen to the Bishop. What followers of medjugorje do not seem to understand, is that if an athiest who pretends to have seen apparitions of our lady were to invite people to pray the rosary and prayers were answered, it is not due to the athiest and his lies, but due to our Lady’s intercession and Catholic prayer. That being said, I have investigated Medjugorije for years and I know of no supernatural events, cures or miracles despite a lot of reseach and first hand enquirey. I agree fully with Bishops of the Diocese. Also, for the sake of clarity; miracles are not attributed to Medjugorije, but if they happen; they happen in spite of the fraudulant claims of the “seers”. I hope the Vatican will clarify the matter soon.

 

[Iotaunum]

I only know of one Catholic lay demonologist, David Considine. He does have a psychic member of his team. He has worked with Catholic Exorcists and has a certification from a bishop. His situation is rare. I was very skeptical when I first heard of him. I know a person who he has helped. Kathy Krongard wrote about a book about her demonic experiences, which included help from Considine. Apparently he is legit.

I have heard of Considine and I remember listening to a radio programme before where he was a guest. I don’t know how he considers himself a Catholic and at the same time makes use of “mediums” and “spiritualists” - both practices which the Church has always condemned.

Traditionally speaking, exorcism is the responsibility of clergy. Considine does not remedy cases of possession.

I agree, exorcism is the responsibility of the Clergy and I would rather it was left to them alone. Regarding Considine, it appears he does try and remedy the cases himself by reading the exorcism prayers from the Roman Ritual. Also, I looked him up and it appears he makes use of Bishop Robert Mc Kenna in some cases, who is a well know sedevacantist Bishop!

I can see two reasons. First, shaman and voodoo priests are not listed in the yellow pages. Second, due to Hollywood, Catholic priests are well known for exorcisms.

Yes, I can see how they may be more available, but I cannot understand their logic in rejecting Christ and at the same time asking a Catholic priest to use the power of Chirst to drive out demons. Do they think this is reasonable or logical?

I can’t speak about sedevacantists specifically, but heretics in general can cast out demons in the name of Jesus. The disciples griped about it. Christ told them, that if they are not against Him, then they are for Him.

Yes, that is a well know verse but remember those people whom the diciples rebuked were not heretics, but people who used the name of Christ to try and expel demons. Thus, they were not against Christ. However, this is not the same as the heretic who rejects Christ’s Church, the authority of the Pope, His teachings etc. Those people are against Christ. However, anyone may be able to drive out evil in Christ’s name, but they have no authority to do so and as the Bible shows us, taking on an exorcism without the authority of Chirst and His Church is very dangerous. Major exorcisms can only be done by the Church.

I have two answers for this. First, they have watched television and believe that psychics and investigators are the right answer. Secondly, the unfortunate truth is that if they approach their local pastor, he probably will not know what to do. He may refer the person to the diocese who also does not know what to do (my experience). If the diocese does get involved, they move very slowly. Depending upon how acute the problem is, a victim may quickly run out of patience and seek help elsewhere.

Yes, if someone makes use of mediums etc, what faith do they have in the Church? Also, priests should be more willing to help.I think all round people need to know their faith a bit better.

 

[paraknow]

Saying that anyone who isn’t under the Vatican is “against Christ” would be something Pope John Paul 2 would disagree with. Where’s the ecumenical spirit here? In the first century, there were strong divisions between the Jewish and Gentile churches, yet ultimately they each accepted that the other belonged to Christ… despite their differences.

As for investigators using “psychics,” this isn’t to say that these “psychics” necessarily fall into the “psychic MEDIUM” catagory, or practice occultic awareness exercises. The term psychic can be applied to those who can “discern spirits,” a gift of the Holy Spirit. Is this the case with Considine’s “psychic?” I don’t know.

If one wishes to condemn Robert McKenna as a “Sedevacanist,” he still was ordained as a mainstream Priest before joining the traditionalist movement opposed to Vatican 2. McKenna was never “defrocked,” as critics like to charge. Be that as it may, If Pope John Paul 2 recognized the spiritual legitimacy of Protestants (albeit in “imperfect communion” with the true Church), how would being a “sedevacanist Catholic” be “against Christ?”

If one believes in the authority of the Pope, than shouldn’t one adopt the loving and open demeanor Pope John Paul the 2nd taught?

 

[paraknow]

As for the would be exorcists rebuked by the disciples, the scriptures tell us nothing about them. It is a presumption to say that they weren’t “heretics.” They may of held heretical beliefs, but wanted to use Christ`s name because they had seen legitimate disciples successfully exorcize unclean spirits.

I also heard Considine say in an interview that he never performs the major rite of Exorcism… this rite is only for an ordained cleric to perform.

 

[Iotaunum]

Saying that anyone who isn’t under the Vatican is “against Christ” would be something Pope John Paul 2 would disagree with. Where’s the ecumenical spirit here?

Well firstly, I did not say that exactly. What I said was that those who reject Christ’s Church and His teachings implicitly deny Him and reject Him - Luke 10:16 - “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.” One cannot truly be for God if he rejects Christ, one cannot truly be for Christ if he rejects His church. Thats what I was trying to explain. Also, to the ecumenical Spirit - I guess you could call me a “traditionalist” - I’m not very into ecumenism, so that would explain the lack of “ecumenical spirit” in my comment

As for investigators using “psychics,” this isn’t to say that these “psychics” necessarily fall into the “psychic MEDIUM” catagory, or practice occultic awareness exercises. The term psychic can be applied to those who can “discern spirits,” a gift of the Holy Spirit. Is this the case with Considine’s “psychic?” I don’t know.

Well I just don’t like the idea of lay people who claim they can “discern spirits” of people who “couldn’t pass on” and I don’t think they should be involved - they should leave it to the Church. Also, I do not think that the vast, vast majority of these people genuinely have any gifts of the Holy Ghost. For the most part, they are non- Catholics who are Psychics, mediums, astrologers, etc. They regularly engage in practices forbidden by the Church and usually disagree with the Church on core doctrines such as what will happen when we die. We know that when we die we will be judged and go the either Heaven, suffer a while in purgatory, or to Hell for all eternity. These people often reject this and claim there is a “spirit world” and that they can contact human spirits who have “not passed on” yet.

If one wishes to condemn Robert McKenna as a “Sedevacanist,” he still was ordained as a mainstream Priest before joining the traditionalist movement opposed to Vatican 2. McKenna was never “defrocked,” as critics like to charge. Be that as it may, If Pope John Paul 2 recognized the spiritual legitimacy of Protestants (albeit in “imperfect communion” with the true Church), how would being a “sedevacanist Catholic” be “against Christ?”

I didn’t *condemn *anyone as a sedevacantist. I disagree with sedevancantism, but my question was merely one of the role of jurisdiction in formal exorcisms. No one could claim ordinary jurisdiction for sedevacantists - I just wanted opinions on this issue.

If one believes in the authority of the Pope, than shouldn’t one adopt the loving and open demeanor Pope John Paul the 2nd taught?

I agree with you, but I don’t see how I am not being loving in saying what I say. I only say what I believe the Church has always taught.

 

[Iotaunum]

As for the would be exorcists rebuked by the disciples, the scriptures tell us nothing about them. It is a presumption to say that they weren’t “heretics.” They may of held heretical beliefs, but wanted to use Christ`s name because they had seen legitimate disciples successfully exorcize unclean spirits.

I also heard Considine say in an interview that he never performs the major rite of Exorcism… this rite is only for an ordained cleric to perform.

I disagree. It is much more than mere presumption to hold this. We know that Christ would not have said that “he who is not against you is for you” if the person in questions was against Christ and rejected His teachings. He may not have known them, but he could not be a heretic and not be against Christ at the same time. Christ would have forbidden Him probably if he had uttered heresies and rejected the teachings He gave. No one is free to reject Chirst, His Church, or His teachings an still be* for *Christ.

As to Considine, I know he did read from the Roman ritual and command demons to depart many times. He also used mediums/spiritualists - which of course would be out of the question for Catholics. I think he should leave even that to Priests, even if he is not exorcizing a person.

 

[Bix]

A friend of mine was told they should probably have the home exorcised. It has already been blessed. They has been speaking with a priest regarding the situation who is in agreement that a problem does exist.
However, the priest said you must have faculties in order to do this. Is this correct? He admittedly states he is unfamiliar with some of this territory and said he would look into it.(if facilities are necessary)

They also asked the priest regarding thoughts on if a personal one is needed. When asking, my friend wanted to know why it is so difficult to obtain permission when two priests are in agreement there is a problem. ie- what’s the worst that could happen if one is not necessary?

They were told:

1. this is a well guarded area(which makes sense to me)
2. that perhaps it has to do with temptation… This… I don’t understand at all. What in the world would temptation have to do with an exorcism???

 

[Julia_Mae]

5/ Why is it that a lot of people who claim to be Catholic use mediums …

I thought since no one else talked about this and this I would. In my old Parish we had a grief group. They met every week and a couple people there had lost children. They shared with each other all their experiences including what they called “visitations” from their loved ones who had passed. I don’t know, one woman seemed to have some sort of running dialogue with her retarded in life but now deceased son.

It seems very Catholic to me that people who talk to Saints talk to their own family members. I guess it seems odd, now that I think about it, that they talk back, but everyone just accepted it.

But - there was someone who went through my RCIA class who began doing a lot of prayer in the Church, a lot of contemplative prayer. She also went to daily Mass and almost every prayer service we had of any kind. She was also in the choir and about a year after we came in, just after our second Easter Vigil where the choir sang, of course, she told me she was pretty sure she was a medium. Which seemed to freak her out a little, but she said she had a message for one of the women who had lost a son who had not had one of those visitations. (I guess they are dreams but they are thought to be not real dreams but real visits.)

Anyway, this woman, I’ll call her Ann, said she had written down everything she had “gotten” from the boy and she was praying and praying and felt like she really had to give this message to the woman she barely knew and had no idea how to work up her nerve or approach the woman.

By the next September when we started choir practices again, Ann said she had finally written it all down, and sent the letter to this woman, who immediately called her and verified everything she had said she heard from the son. It was apparently a very healing experience for the woman who lost the son.

Ann said she read the Catechism about mediums but she said, “It says “conjure” the dead and I couldn’t conjure up a hair from my old cat. They come when they come and it has nothing to do with me.” Then she talked about the place where it says “discernment of spirits” is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Ann had decided it was something from God and she couldn’t say no.

I don’t know about other times really except one with a widow who was just so sick with grief and was at church for a special healing service with a priest who did laying on of hands. After he passed by, Ann says she was sitting behind the woman when the dead husband showed up and he talked to her, mostly he wanted to give the widow a hug and say he was okay and so Ann hugs her. He told Ann the last words he ever said. The woman confirmed. It also seemed to be like almost an instant change for the woman from hardly being able to drag herself into the church to walking out looking a lot better. She even was smiling a little. .

So, this is where it all gets pretty weird. For me, anyway. What do I or we make of it all? In my parish at that time, it was not that big a deal. If you can’t conjure anything yourself and just respond to something that seems to be through the Holy Spirit, is that going against the Church or not? Ann also used to quote Jesus where He said “Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted.”

I think there are some people who just run off to psychics or whatever all the time and need to get a better hobby or something. But this thing with Ann, this is always something I wished I understood.

So that’s my big long story and I always believed her because of knowing how she was and that she wouldn’t lie about this and how prayerful and devoted she was and how the people confirmed things she couldn’t know.

Maybe people go to mediums because sometimes that’s God’s plan and maybe the Church needs to like, find out who they are or something so grieving moms can hear from their sons but have some controls around it so people don’t go running off to, I don’t know, fakes and stuff.

Anyway, that was years ago and I moved away. ** Has anyone else ever heard of anything like this in their parish? Or, lost someone who visited them in a dream or something? **

I would really like to know that.

 

[Iotaunum]

A friend of mine was told they should probably have the home exorcised. It has already been blessed. They has been speaking with a priest regarding the situation who is in agreement that a problem does exist.
However, the priest said you must have faculties in order to do this. Is this correct? He admittedly states he is unfamiliar with some of this territory and said he would look into it.(if facilities are necessary)

They also asked the priest regarding thoughts on if a personal one is needed. When asking, my friend wanted to know why it is so difficult to obtain permission when two priests are in agreement there is a problem. ie- what’s the worst that could happen if one is not necessary?

They were told:

1. this is a well guarded area(which makes sense to me)
2. that perhaps it has to do with temptation… This… I don’t understand at all. What in the world would temptation have to do with an exorcism???

I don’t understand whether the person you refer to is possessed or obsessed or if their house has manifestations of demonic activity. If it is the house or an object which is the problem, then a blessing should be sufficient. Our house has been blessed twice, in the new rite and the traditional rite. In the new rite they use water and prayer and walk through the house to bless it. However, in the traditional rite the priest exorcises the water and salt and blesses it. This takes longer, however you should have some blessed water and exorcised and blessed salt left over. The priest puts some of the salt into the water while saying the relevant prayers. If you have holy water and exorcised and blessed salt, then you could sprinkle this about the house or mix it with the water and sprinkle it. This may be sufficient as a sort of indirect exorcism by means of exorcised objects/sacramentals. If the this and the priests blessing does not get rid of the problem, then the priests will have to be convinced of the necessity of further action. They can do a minor exorcism and other blessings without permission, but a formal exorcism will require the permission of the Bishop. This is not always easy to get these days, since there are many bishops who either do not believe in the devil (hard to believe but true) or many don’t want to appear “medieval” and would be scandalised in front of their modern peers if they would give such permission.

As to the second part, yes exorcisms are private affairs guarded by secrecy to protect the “victim” and their family and also the clergy. They are not taken lightly since it is a formal command for a demon to leave in the name of Christ and His Church. They are not done if the person is most likely not possessed - but once started it will become clear quite quickly to the priest whether it is a genuine case or not. The media and faithless public would ridiclue Christ’s Church if an exorcism was perfromed, for example, on someone with Epilepsy - hence the secrecy and the investigation before performing one.

To the part about “temptation” - I don’t understand the statment nor the context. Mortal sin, however, places one in the dominion of the devil making one more susceptible to demonic influence and even possession.

 

[Iotaunum]

I thought since no one else talked about this and this I would. In my old Parish we had a grief group. They met every week and a couple people there had lost children. They shared with each other all their experiences including what they called “visitations” from their loved ones who had passed. I don’t know, one woman seemed to have some sort of running dialogue with her retarded in life but now deceased son.

It seems very Catholic to me that people who talk to Saints talk to their own family members. I guess it seems odd, now that I think about it, that they talk back, but everyone just accepted it.

But - there was someone who went through my RCIA class who began doing a lot of prayer in the Church, a lot of contemplative prayer. She also went to daily Mass and almost every prayer service we had of any kind. She was also in the choir and about a year after we came in, just after our second Easter Vigil where the choir sang, of course, she told me she was pretty sure she was a medium. Which seemed to freak her out a little, but she said she had a message for one of the women who had lost a son who had not had one of those visitations. (I guess they are dreams but they are thought to be not real dreams but real visits.)

Anyway, this woman, I’ll call her Ann, said she had written down everything she had “gotten” from the boy and she was praying and praying and felt like she really had to give this message to the woman she barely knew and had no idea how to work up her nerve or approach the woman.

By the next September when we started choir practices again, Ann said she had finally written it all down, and sent the letter to this woman, who immediately called her and verified everything she had said she heard from the son. It was apparently a very healing experience for the woman who lost the son.

Ann said she read the Catechism about mediums but she said, “It says “conjure” the dead and I couldn’t conjure up a hair from my old cat. They come when they come and it has nothing to do with me.” Then she talked about the place where it says “discernment of spirits” is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Ann had decided it was something from God and she couldn’t say no.

I don’t know about other times really except one with a widow who was just so sick with grief and was at church for a special healing service with a priest who did laying on of hands. After he passed by, Ann says she was sitting behind the woman when the dead husband showed up and he talked to her, mostly he wanted to give the widow a hug and say he was okay and so Ann hugs her. He told Ann the last words he ever said. The woman confirmed. It also seemed to be like almost an instant change for the woman from hardly being able to drag herself into the church to walking out looking a lot better. She even was smiling a little. .

So, this is where it all gets pretty weird. For me, anyway. What do I or we make of it all? In my parish at that time, it was not that big a deal. If you can’t conjure anything yourself and just respond to something that seems to be through the Holy Spirit, is that going against the Church or not? Ann also used to quote Jesus where He said “Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted.”

I think there are some people who just run off to psychics or whatever all the time and need to get a better hobby or something. But this thing with Ann, this is always something I wished I understood.

So that’s my big long story and I always believed her because of knowing how she was and that she wouldn’t lie about this and how prayerful and devoted she was and how the people confirmed things she couldn’t know.

Maybe people go to mediums because sometimes that’s God’s plan and maybe the Church needs to like, find out who they are or something so grieving moms can hear from their sons but have some controls around it so people don’t go running off to, I don’t know, fakes and stuff.

Anyway, that was years ago and I moved away. ** Has anyone else ever heard of anything like this in their parish? Or, lost someone who visited them in a dream or something? **

I would really like to know that.

I would be very careful and would stay clear of this. Firstly, it is beyond question that the Church forbids mediumship etc. This is no form acceptable or reconcilable with Catholic doctrine. There is no such thing a a conjuring/non-conjuring, black/white/good/bad medium. All contact or attempted contact with the dead is forbidden by Scripture and the Church. We can pray to saints - yes, and pray to those who are in heaven and even purgatory, but we can never attempt to have a conversation with them nor get them to speak to us or reveal things to us. Some rare and exceptional cases have happened in the past with the saints, and God has sometimes permitted people to come from purgatory to warn other pius souls etc. These, it need not be said, are extremely rare. Be very careful is someone tells you they hear the dead or get messages no matter how good or pius the person is. The Devil could be deceiving them and they have no way to tell. Therefore, do not put your faith in these things, but pray to the saints and Holy souls, and keep away from activites such as this. People are so easy to deceive when their loved ones have died.

 

[Bix]

I don’t understand whether the person you refer to is possessed or obsessed or if their house has manifestations of demonic activity. If it is the house or an object which is the problem, then a blessing should be sufficient. They are not taken lightly since it is a formal command for a demon to leave in the name of Christ and His Church. They are not done if the person is most likely not possessed - but once started it will become clear quite quickly to the priest whether it is a genuine case or not. The media and faithless public would ridiclue Christ’s Church if an exorcism was perfromed, for example, on someone with Epilepsy - hence the secrecy and the investigation before performing one.

To the part about “temptation” - I don’t understand the statment nor the context. Mortal sin, however, places one in the dominion of the devil making one more susceptible to demonic influence and even possession.

The person is under some kind of attack. That’s all I know. A local priest believes that something is attached to them (as they have moved within the past year and manifestations have continued.) He believes the attachment is external rather than internal. He believes this is due to the person not allowing “it” in… My friend spoke to another priest and asked their thoughts on an exorcism. He said he would have to pray about it and then left early for a month of vacation…

They have had issues in the home. Others have witnessed. They have also been physically attacked. The physical attacks occurred about two weeks before the home was blessed and became much worse about four to five months later.
So, I guess they have two issues…

 

[Bix]

Regarding the context of temptation.

They spoke with the local priest last week and no real help was given. He was kind and offered to bless the home again. He does state it is a paranormal issue, for lack of a better word.
They asked what his thoughts were on exorcism. He believes the person is more open and aware of things leaving them more prone to spiritual attacks. . . When simply asked , why is it so difficult (for an exorcism) , he made the reply about it being guarded and then said there was always or might be a concern for temptation and then said he had to leave…

I don’t believe this person is in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I would be very careful and would stay clear of this. Firstly, it is beyond question that the Church forbids mediumship etc. This is no form acceptable or reconcilable with Catholic doctrine. There is no such thing a a conjuring/non-conjuring, black/white/good/bad medium. All contact or attempted contact with the dead is forbidden by Scripture and the Church. We can pray to saints - yes, and pray to those who are in heaven and even purgatory, but we can never attempt to have a conversation with them nor get them to speak to us or reveal things to us.

Well, that’s sort of the point, I think, she didn’t** attempt** anything or ** try and get **anything to happen. It just did, I thought I made that clear. And that’s really my question: if something is given to you, how do you just reject that?

As for Scripture, Jesus purposely had Apostles accompany Him up the mountain in order that they witness Him speaking to Moses and Elijah who were giving Jesus information about something, His Crucifixion, apparently. Jesus could not sin. Jesus purposely sought out those in Heaven to speak to. And, He purposely showed this to others.

Be very careful is someone tells you they hear the dead or get messages no matter how good or pius the person is. The Devil could be deceiving them and they have no way to tell.

I don’t believe that for a minute. You think God would create a system whereby we cannot tell what is of God or not? Maybe if you are a young person, I don’t know. What can it serve the Liar to illustrate the Truth of Eternal life? Where is the evidence that anyone has been deceived in this way with this kind of message of hope and love?

Ann received one of these messages in the Church, kneeling in a pew, seconds after receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus. It is beyond thinking that there could have been satanic influence at that moment. In fact, the other incident with the widow happened in church, after a Mass, immediately after a priest with a charism for healing had prayed over the widow.

Maybe these expressions of love and care through the Holy Spirit are not as rare as thought.

Therefore, do not put your faith in these things, but pray to the saints and Holy souls, and keep away from activites such as this. People are so easy to deceive when their loved ones have died.

My faith is in God where it has always been, thanks. Maybe there are deceivers who take advantage of the bereaved. Those people would have to be deceivers, though. Such is not the case here.

I’d still like to know if anyone else had s ever had this kind of experience or knows if this is common,. It was in my old parish. Not the medium part, but people hearing from their departed loved ones.