Preternatural & Paranormal - the traditional approach?

[Iotaunum]

Well, that’s sort of the point, I think, she didn’t** attempt** anything or ** try and get **anything to happen. It just did, I thought I made that clear. And that’s really my question: if something is given to you, how do you just reject that?

Well just to clarify, I said; “All contact or attempted contact with the dead is forbidden by Scripture and the Church.” - I did not imply that the person you speak of was involved in conjuring up spirits nor actively seeking contact with them. As to the part about rejecting something which is “given to you” - the issue is by whom it is given. As history shows, this gift is very rare among the saints and when contact is made there is no doubt that it is from Heaven if God want’s a person to know it. For example, a nun was allowed to appear in her former convent to let the other pious nuns know of the pains she suffered in purgatory for neglecting her spiritual duties. A sign was also left in the form of a hand shaped burn mark on the door which matched the unique shape of the subsequently exhumed body of the nun. God permitted this for the salvation of souls - it was not an “I’m alright - I’ve gone to a better place - go for that job comming up” kind of message which mediums are wont to deliver. God only permits such experiences when it directly affects a person or persons salvation, as is the case in marian apparitions.

As for Scripture, Jesus purposely had Apostles accompany Him up the mountain in order that they witness Him speaking to Moses and Elijah who were giving Jesus information about something, His Crucifixion, apparently. Jesus could not sin. Jesus purposely sought out those in Heaven to speak to. And, He purposely showed this to others.

I don’t understand the relevance here. Christ talking to Moses and Elias on the mountain and the Transfiguration the Apostles witnessed has nothing to do with communication with the dead. The reason Christ permitted the apostles to witness Himself talking to Moses and Elias and His transfiguration accompanied with the voice of God the Father was not anything to do with contact, invited or not with the dead. It was about showing continuity between the Old law and the New and a prefigurement of Christ’s glory and that He was to suffer and die before entering into this glory. I cannot see the connection you see.

I don’t believe that for a minute. You think God would create a system whereby we cannot tell what is of God or not? Maybe if you are a young person, I don’t know. What can it serve the Liar to illustrate the Truth of Eternal life?

I stand by what I said - perhaps I didn’t explain it properly. The issue here is discernment. I have studdied Marian apparitions for years and have read literally hundreds of books (I have well over 200 books myself on the various apparitions/seers and have borrowed more) on the various apparitions and their histories. I’ll be the first to admit that at first I gave more credit to some false apparitions which appeared on the surface to be of divine origin. Young or old, it does not matter - the issue of discernement is not easy. I know of lots of priests and bishops who have followed false apparitions which were later condemned by the Church. I have spoken to a few priests who gave credit to a well know apparition site and “seer” only for the bishop to later declare it a fraud. It happens all the time and happens even on a large scale today.The point is, discernement is not easy. Priests and theologians are often decieved either way. Even when many of the saints got locutions or apparitions, they wondered whether they were being decieved by the devil. One who believes the devil could not deceive “even the elect” does not know the capabilities of the devil. Therefore, I am saying that when someone claims to have got a revelation or message from the dead be highly skeptical at first and do not put your faith in it. It is very hard for the saints and theologians to discern, so obviously there is a very high risk of being deceived by the devil - no matter how saintly or pious a person is.

 

[Iotaunum]

Where is the evidence that anyone has been deceived in this way with this kind of message of hope and love?

Again, discernment would be simple for theologians and saints if “this kind of message of hope and love” meant that it had to be from God. Just think, if you were the smartest person on earth how would you trick someone into thinking a message came from God. You would fill it with truth and love etc and imitate the attributes of heavenly messages. Well it goes without saying the the devil is by far more intelligent than the smartest creature. He knows well how to immitate real appartions and deceive the elect. He is not going to give a message of open hate, for this would give him away immediately. Discernemnt would not be necessary if such were the case. I know of priests and my own family members who followed Christina Gallagher, Olive Dawson and Medjugorje etc. When the Church exposed Christina Gallagher they were in shock, then moved to another “seer”. The fact that I had told them it was false years in advance was met only with the reply: “the devil would not be telling people to say the rosary, go to mass, confessions and pray etc.” - they did not understand discernment nor the power and intelligence of the Devil to their own detriment, When she was exposed by the Bishop and condemned - they all acted as if "how were we to know when the messages were “good” - just like today in Medjugorije where the Bihsops have spoken and people say “the messages say go to Mass etc”. They cannot see how discernment works or the devil operates.

Ann received one of these messages in the Church, kneeling in a pew, seconds after receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus. It is beyond thinking that there could have been satanic influence at that moment. In fact, the other incident with the widow happened in church, after a Mass, immediately after a priest with a charism for healing had prayed over the widow.

To the first part, it is possible to be decieved during or after communion - yes. Also, satanic influence is not beyong thinking at this moment as has been found during exorcisms and even the saints who after receiving were attacked with distractions and malicious thoughts by the devil while praying after communion. Also, I don’t know what to make of the “charism” or being prayed over. I will tell you first hand that I have seen some very demonic things take place at charasmatic healing services. Two I attended first hand and others I have heard from reliable friends and videos.

The bottom line is: all I am saying is be careful. Even the holiest saints, most pious of people, and most learned of theologians can be deceived very easily by the devil. People are wont, unfortunately, to give credence to a revelation or message when all the details are correct. This is not proof of supernatural - natural or even preternatural happenings can account for this. Just be careful.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Just be careful.

Well, according to you it’s impossible to be careful because no human being has the ability to distinguish between what is of God and what is of the Liar. I have to say I wonder since Bishops can “be deceived,” how we decide to trust some other Bishop and what* he* says? Couldn’t he be deceived into thinking something that is of God is not happening so that the message we are supposed to receive gets stranded in the dead letter office?

Be careful. I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean in terms of what I said, about the person I knew. I do not recognize that you know more about this than I do. We are not experts. I didn’t come for a series of lectures. I came to share something and hoped for some sharing in return.

How is it the supernatural is always attributed to Satan, but the disbelief in it is attributed to something else? How is it we are not equally suspicious of the repression of the extraordinary experiences on the part of the faithful that are, indeed, given by God? Why do you think they are so rare? Possibly because the faithful have learned to keep it to themselves and not subject their pearls to trampling.

The question was asked by the OP, why people go to mediums and such. Maybe they go where they can to get answers because the Church isn’t providing avenues or much help.

I know an atheist who converted after a stunning experience of God. Maybe it was just the devil? When she was later healed of a physical ailment that would have required surgery, know what her Pastor told her when she revealed this (she had medical proof) and told him that Jesus had actually appeared to her at that moment? ?

*“God doesn’t work that way.” *

Chalk up one to Karl Rahner. The priest was deceived, alright. But not the way you think. I met another woman who had a very powerful mystical experience. Think she felt like she could talk to her priest? She’s reading about kundalini looking for answers. We don’t need to be careful, we need a place to go for support and guidance. What if I have one of these experiences, I should go to my priest? I am new here, what if he blows me off and says, “God doesn’t work that way.” when I know full well He does? What if you have one and get the same response? You going to turn your back on the Holy Spirit and accept that as an answer?

The fact that I had told them it was false years in advance was met only with the reply: “the devil would not be telling people to say the rosary, go to mass, confessions and pray etc.”

And he wouldn’t. Nor would he say the only mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. But a fake might say that. And your admiration for the devil’s IQ begs the question, again: if everyone can be deceived how can anyone know the truth?

But now you know how God works and when He sends His gifts and even why? I don’t know, maybe the devil is clouding your judgement. How do you know he isn’t making you blind to the facts and that these experiences are not only not rare at all, but common in parishes like mine where there was such a very large number of people devoted to prayer?

God is real and in our lives. God acts in our lives. Ours. He does not just act in the lives of Popes and Bishops and religious, He acts in all our lives. And He acts as He wills as often as He wishes and not according to whatever anyone on this earth thinks He should do.

 

[Iotaunum]

Well, according to you it’s impossible to be careful because no human being has the ability to distinguish between what is of God and what is of the Liar. …

Be careful. I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean in terms of what I said, about the person I knew. I do not recognize that you know more about this than I do. We are not experts. I didn’t come for a series of lectures. I came to share something and hoped for some sharing in return.

You seem to have picked me up wrong and in fact you seem like you are warding off an attack. We are on the same side remember. I am only advising you to be careful and err on the side of caution. I never said; “it’s impossible to be careful because no human being has the ability to distinguish between what is of God and what is of the Liar.” - I said it was a case of discernemnt, which is obviously possible but difficult. Also, I did not claim that I know more about this than you do. I have read on it considerably over a number of years as this particular issue I find interesting, but I know nothing of your knowledge on the subject - you may indeed have read more than me about it.

How is it the supernatural is always attributed to Satan, but the disbelief in it is attributed to something else? How is it we are not equally suspicious of the repression of the extraordinary experiences on the part of the faithful that are, indeed, given by God? Why do you think they are so rare? Possibly because the faithful have learned to keep it to themselves and not subject their pearls to trampling.

Well I must correct your first statement - "How is it the supernatural is always attributed to Satan, but the disbelief in it is attributed to something else? " - The Supernatural is never attributed to Satan. Satin is incappable of the Supernature. He is not above nature. His work is either natural or preternatural. Anything which is Supernatural is without doubt from God. Thus, when a false apparition site has activity such as rosaries turning to Gold, levitations, visions “miracles” etc and the Church says that it is not of Supernatural origin, people are shocked. They confuse preternatural and supernatural. This is why they will frequently disobey the Church and Bishops since they “know they felt/seen something” they cannot explain.

I know an atheist who converted after a stunning experience of God. Maybe it was just the devil? When she was later healed of a physical ailment that would have required surgery, know what her Pastor told her when she revealed this (she had medical proof) and told him that Jesus had actually appeared to her at that moment? ?

*“God doesn’t work that way.” *

I don’t know the details of the case or why the Priest came to that conclusion, but he may well have had genuine reasons why he felt that way.

And he wouldn’t. Nor would he say the only mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. But a fake might say that. And your admiration for the devil’s IQ begs the question, again: if everyone can be deceived how can anyone know the truth?

But now you know how God works and when He sends His gifts and even why? I don’t know, maybe the devil is clouding your judgement. How do you know he isn’t making you blind to the facts and that these experiences are not only not rare at all, but common in parishes like mine where there was such a very large number of people devoted to prayer? .

I’m sorry, but this is not the case. Aks any exorcist or write to one. I have. Read their accounts. Read the accounts of the Saints - the judgement of the Bishops and Church in various cases. The Devil reccommened all these things - prayer, pennace, rosary, Mass, the sacraments etc in every single false apparition which I can think of. Christina Gallagher reccommended all of the above and more. There were flase signs and wonders; “healings”, Rosaries turning to “gold”, “conversions” and weeping statues. Then the Church conedmned her. She was declared not to be having supernatural experiences as she claimed. Her financial fruad was only recently revealed. The point is, through this exercise, the Devil succeeded in making Catholics wary of even True apparitions like Fatima, since all the fruits appeared good - no bad was found - and they were deceived. The devil shook peoples faith in true revelations and apparitions. I know this first hand, I live in Ireland and seen it for myself and heard it from so many people. This was the devils plan. He will not come out and tell people to sin and stop going to Mass. While you call my recognition of the Devil’s intelligence “admiration” ( which is to misrepresent me), you seem at the same time to underestimate it, as thought he would be so stupid as to make fraud obvious. I am not telling you what to do, I just said be careful. You can chose to ignore my advise but recognise that I am not trying to argue with you - I realise you seem very convinced of the experiences you have had. I too have witnessed an event take place which was beyond explanation and directly relating to prayers which happened in the presence of six other witnesses. Although I feel it was an answer to prayer, I myself realise that it could be preternatural and therefore I do not take too much consideration of it when making my decision.

Pax Christi

 

[Julia_Mae]

I don’t know the details of the case or why the Priest came to that conclusion, but he may well have had genuine reasons why he felt that way.

Yes, those reasons are called Hans Kung, and, like many post Vat 2 priests and religious, he does not believe in miracles: not in the present, not in the Bible.

Or in transubstantiation, in fact.

The point is, through this exercise, the Devil succeeded in making Catholics wary of even True apparitions like Fatima, since all the fruits appeared good - no bad was found - and they were deceived. The devil shook peoples faith in true revelations and apparitions.

You know what the seers at Fatima were accused of? Being pawns of the Franciscans in a power grab and being used by the town to make money.

I know this first hand, I live in Ireland and seen it for myself and heard it from so many people. This was the devils plan. He will not come out and tell people to sin and stop going to Mass. While you call my recognition of the Devil’s intelligence “admiration” ( which is to misrepresent me), you seem at the same time to underestimate it, as thought he would be so stupid as to make fraud obvious

.

I’m just not willing to give free ad space.

I am not telling you what to do, I just said be careful.

Yes, well, as that was a non sequitur in terms of what I posted, you might understand why I didn’t care for someone using a sincere inquiry as a jumping off point for a speech by pretending to respond to me while in actuality completely discounting what I actually said as if I never existed in the thread to begin with.

You can chose to ignore my advise but recognise that I am not trying to argue with you - I realise you seem very convinced of the experiences you have had.

What experience did I have?

I too have witnessed an event take place which was beyond explanation and directly relating to prayers which happened in the presence of six other witnesses. Although I feel it was an answer to prayer, I myself realise that it could be preternatural and therefore I do not take too much consideration of it when making my decision.

Pax Christi

One of the ways we might be misled, very misled, is by thinking Grace is something else. Like a pharisee accusing Jesus of healing by the power of the evil one. By being left with a belief system and no actual relationship with God.

In this exchange, the person talking about and focused on evil is you. I want to talk about miracles and God and the Holy Spirit in our lives. Now how does it not serve the Liar to make everyone suspicious of that?

I’m not ignoring your advice, **I’m completely challenging it’s validity and source. ** Fear is the opposite of love, and in the Church I am part of, the Spirit is openly and joyfully received and embraced and celebrated. I think that’s because people I knew in my parish were spiritually informed. The sign isn’t what’s important. But the experience of God is, and no one can fake that or make you have it. But someone might possibly convince you not to accept it because you cannot tell the difference between joy and mania. Except you can.

Unless they are in a parish where no one talks about these things or shares the experience or how discernment happens or tries to scare them away from God. Then they are left to their own devices because someone decided to separate the gifts of the Spirit from their life in the Church. Someone wants to frighten them away from miracles.
*
Now who would want to do that? *

If you hadn’t spent years immersing yourself in the work of Satan, maybe you wouldn’t have such skewed views about these things. I’m not attacking you, I’m seriously asking if it’s ever occurred to you that you let something in through all the time of steeping yourself in what is, actually, the occult, no matter what motives you assigned to doing that.

Nothing can separate me from the love of Jesus Christ. Nothing can make me fear anything He gives to me or question His power and Presence in my life or hesitate to accept whatever He may chose to give me. IMO, the one who needs to be careful is the one who seems so fascinated with something as evil as possession they’d spend what sounds like years delving into it.

BTW, I have met an exorcist. He was one of the ones involved with the situation the movie was based on. Nothing like living a block from a Jesuit University to create interesting characters in your life.

I think you could be quite helpful here, as you are so well-informed, if you made a list of the attributes associated with genuine spiritual experience. I never brought up any topic but God. I wish you’d talk about God, also.

Are you able to? I’m not trying to be nasty at all, I really want to know: are you able to write a whole long post like your other ones about the wonderful signs of God’s true Presence in your life and the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit in your life without once making reference to the Liar?

I fear for you. Sincerely.

 

[Iotaunum]

Yes, those reasons are called Hans Kung, and, like many post Vat 2 priests and religious, he does not believe in miracles: not in the present, not in the Bible.

Or in transubstantiation, in fact.

I cannot judge whether that priest is a heretic or not. If you say he denies dogams of the faith, then I will take your word for it. However, this does not affect the validity of the other claims made. I am not saying they are true or false - I don’t know the details.

You know what the seers at Fatima were accused of? Being pawns of the Franciscans in a power grab and being used by the town to make money.

I think you are confusing Fatima with medjugorje. If there is one topic I know about it is Medjugorje. My closest family members were involved for years with leading trips out their and stayed with the “seers”. In Medjugorije the renegade franciscans who had been ordered to leave the Churches under Pius XII disobeyed and were in constant dispute with the diocesan clergy and the Bishops. They were caught lying and telling the Visionaies what to do, and the Bishop of Mostar rightly called them out for this. One was excommunicated and had an illigitimate child with a nun and wanted to open a mixed convent. He was also accused of assulting others and the Pope excommunicated him. He now lives in italy I think. Anyway, the “seers” said the Gospa (our Lady) said the bishop was wrong and she would strike him down and that in fact the renegate excommunicated priest, who had the child with a nun, was infact a saint! This is Medjugorije and the renegade order is believed by the Bishop and others as originators or at least propogators of the whole false apparition. Fatima was different. There were no renegade franciscans involved at the time of the apparitions.

Yes, well, as that was a non sequitur in terms of what I posted, you might understand why I didn’t care for someone using a sincere inquiry as a jumping off point for a speech by pretending to respond to me while in actuality completely discounting what I actually said as if I never existed in the thread to begin with.

I never wanted to lecture you nor ignore your claims. I was just warning you how easy it is to be decieved. I have been. It is nothing personal against you, your faith or your knowledge of the faith, it was just advise which you do not have to take.

In this exchange, the person talking about and focused on evil is you. I want to talk about miracles and God and the Holy Spirit in our lives. Now how does it not serve the Liar to make everyone suspicious of that?

You are mistaken if you think my focus is on evil. My focus is on discernment. This involves the very real and much more frequent danger of being decieved by the devil. All of the saints will tell you - the ones who had apparitions and locutions - how they were sometimes tricked or deceived by the devil. At real apparitions such as Lourdes, we had hundereds of “experiences” which were discovered to be demonic in origin. This is what threw some priest off believeing Bernadette at the start. Suspician should not be confused with discernment.

I’m not ignoring your advice, **I’m completely challenging it’s validity and source. **

Well thats up to you, but I would like to know why you think its not valid. I only discern how the Church has always approached discernemnt. If you read about the real apparitions you will almost always see a very careful investigation and disbelief until it is proven to be superntural. If it is from Heaven it will be eventually. We can see where this pays off, for example in modern false apparitions where the bishop was misinformed and initially thought it may be true, under interviews and investigation he seen the fruad - whether of human or demonic origin.

If you hadn’t spent years immersing yourself in the work of Satan, maybe you wouldn’t have such skewed views about these things. I’m not attacking you, I’m seriously asking if it’s ever occurred to you that you let something in through all the time of steeping yourself in what is, actually, the occult, no matter what motives you assigned to doing that.

I do not have skewed views. I think I am very consistant with the historic method of discernement used by the Church. I have not immersed myself in the work of Satan either. All the books I read concerning satan and his power have an imprimatur and are free from doctrinal error. They also do not steep one in the occult, but rather allow you to realise what the devil is capable of. I know very well what God is capable of - people never underestimate that - but they do seem to think of the devil as having very limited power. Thus they are decieved and follow false apparitions.

I think you could be quite helpful here, as you are so well-informed, if you made a list of the attributes associated with genuine spiritual experience. I never brought up any topic but God. I wish you’d talk about God, also.

Are you able to? I’m not trying to be nasty at all, I really want to know: are you able to write a whole long post like your other ones about the wonderful signs of God’s true Presence in your life and the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit in your life without once making reference to the Liar?

I fear for you. Sincerely.

There is nothing to fear I assure you. The whole thread was supposed to be about “Preternatural & Paranormal - the traditional approach”, which is why the preternatural and paranormal efforts and deception of the devil are discussed. I have read more about miracles and true apparitions than false ones. If you want to start another thread on God and real Miracles I would be happy to contribute.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I think you are confusing Fatima with medjugorje.

No, I’m not.

By August of 1917 all Portugal knew the story of the Apparitions at Fatima, although in a variety of versions. The journalists of the anti-religious press enjoyed writing comical versions of the story. As Father de Marchi records the attitude of the anti-religious press, they claimed that: “these children were the puppets of the Jesuits. Not the Jesuits? Well, then, the clergy in general, or the Pope, in particular—luring ignorant and unwary people to the Cova da Iria, in order to fleece them of their money.

devilsfinalbattle.com/ch2.htm (skip down to paragraph 12 for this quote)

I can see how you’d confuse them, though, what with all the similarities.

If there is one topic I know about it is Medjugorje…

Well, I don’t want to get derailed into a debate over Medjugorje. * editing in:* I do have something to say, though. What the message is, for thirty years is: pray. Go to confession. Fast. Do penance. Pray. Here’s the thing. If the apparitions are false and people believe: they will pray more if they believe. If the apparition is not false or partially false or what the heck ever: people who believe will pray more. IF the apparition is true and people doubt for thirty years, then… they will pray less

You are mistaken if you think my focus is on evil. My focus is on discernment. This involves the very real and much more frequent danger of being deceived by the devil.

Peter was walking on the water. He almost drowned because he took his eyes off Jesus.

All of the saints will tell you - the ones who had apparitions and locutions - how they were sometimes tricked or deceived by the devil. At real apparitions such as Lourdes, we had hundereds of “experiences” which were discovered to be demonic in origin. This is what threw some priest off believeing Bernadette at the start. Suspician should not be confused with discernment.

Jesus. Eyes up!

Well thats up to you, but I would like to know why you think its not valid.

Because it promotes fear and distance from God and is intended to cause doubt in the mind of a person as to their ability to know God.

How can we discern? By sharing our experiences with one another, and seeing what makes sense to others in terms of their own experiences. Then we can have a body of Truth that tells us the signs of God through the Spirit. What we should not do, is talk about a lot of scary stuff so the faithful become afraid to share their experiences and that seems to me, to be what’s happened in many areas. Or say things that convince people anything is stronger than God in their lives.

The OP wondered why people go outside the Church. It’s the things you are saying, I believe, that send people outside the Church. That and the post Vatican 2 no-miracles or supernatural events of any kind clergy.

In the so-called “enlightened” world, the Traditional Church was seen as “superstitious” and the communion of Saints a quaint notion derived from a pagan past. You seem to want the new Traditional standard to be that first we suspect the communion of saints to be not of Heavenly origin.

I do not have skewed views. I think I am very consistant with the historic method of discernement used by the Church.

That’s not what “skewed” means. I means you are all about one aspect of something, that you only have ones lens through which to view anything. In fact, the thread and what I wrote are not about the Church discerning something about apparition events. It’s about personal encounters with the Holy Spirit and the action of God in our lives personally.

I have not immersed myself in the work of ***** either. All the books I read concerning ***** have an imprimatur and are free from doctrinal error.

I’m sick of reading the name and your constant mentions.The point is, there are other books. MANY. There other things to read, and you have made this some sort of special focus in your life. How is that the work of the Holy Spirit? You don’t seem to be able to string two sentences together without doing a commercial for darkness. How do you not see yourself that you are in trouble here? I am not attacking you. I am really really trying to make sense of this. I want to know how much of this reading and calling up exorcists you have discussed with your own pastor?

I know very well what God is capable of - people never underestimate that

See, I think they underestimate that all the time. Not intellectually, exactly, but in their own lives. They seem to think God isn’t very interested in them personally. Maybe this is a side-door for evil to enter, the belief that God isn’t in your face, in your life, with miracles and communications and that you have no one alive and well in the afterlife who cares about your welfare. No guardian angels, no one maybe assigned to keep watch. They think God might answer the prayers of saints but not theirs.

But we do have these things. We have them daily. We have them in various degrees of God’s assertion of His Presence and the more we pray and participate in the Sacraments, most especially the Eucharist, the more we can know and be aware of the absolute Love that permeates Reality.

You said you know very well what God is capable of. Please talk about that… And also, I resubmit my request for you, from all your reading to give a list of the signs something is of Heavenly origin.

If you want to start another thread on God and real Miracles I would be happy to contribute.

Well, it’s appropriate to this thread to talk about what I just asked: the signs of Heavenly origin. I think it’s important for balance.

 

[Iotaunum]

I will not get into an argument with you. I have made my position clear, if you do not want to take my advise I accept that. Thats for you to decide.

I have responded to your pm on Medjugorje - It is without doubt a fraud. Its fradulance was one of the things which opened my eyes to the fact that preternatural and praranormal as well as human fraud can decieve a great many - even the elect it seems.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I will not get into an argument with you. I have made my position clear, if you do not want to take my advise I accept that. Thats for you to decide.

I have responded to your pm on Medjugorje - It is without doubt a fraud. Its fradulance was one of the things which opened my eyes to the fact that preternatural and praranormal as well as human fraud can decieve a great many - even the elect it seems.

I answered you, I hope to hear your response. I started reading the book you linked me to that could be downloaded. By page 16 I had found it completely dishonest, distorting facts, manipulating the reader and a perfect example of propaganda at it’s best - or worst - depending on perspective.

That’s disturbing. I’m going to write an expose of it. In detail. A liar is a liar - I don’t care what cause they promote. If anyone is curious - it is anti-Medjugorje so I guess it’s okay to post the link:

mdaviesonmedj.com/

I didn’t ask for an argument, I asked you, as someone well-versed in the topic, to please give a list of the kinds of attributes we see in genuine supernatural experiences and phenomena from God.

I really think all people interested in the topic could benefit.

 

[Iotaunum]

I answered you, I hope to hear your response. I started reading the book you linked me to that could be downloaded. By page 16 I had found it completely dishonest, distorting facts, manipulating the reader and a perfect example of propaganda at it’s best - or worst - depending on perspective.

That’s disturbing. I’m going to write an expose of it. In detail. A liar is a liar - I don’t care what cause they promote. If anyone is curious - it is anti-Medjugorje so I guess it’s okay to post the link:

mdaviesonmedj.com/

I didn’t ask for an argument, I asked you, as someone well-versed in the topic, to please give a list of the kinds of attributes we see in genuine supernatural experiences and phenomena from God.

I really think all people interested in the topic could benefit.

I will reply by PM. I don’t want to derail the thread by discussing Medjugorje, but I will say that the book is not dishonest nor distorting of facts. Just because it is ani-Medjugorje does not mean its wrong. There are books which are written against many false apparitions.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I will reply by PM. I don’t want to derail the thread by discussing Medjugorje, but I will say that the book is not dishonest nor distorting of facts. Just because it is ani-Medjugorje does not mean its wrong. There are books which are written against many false apparitions.

No, things are wrong because they are wrong and because authors, wanting to sell books, I suppose, distort and twist. I’ll leave information when the facts are more clearly set out. In the meantime, I renew my request:

** I asked you, as someone well-versed in the topic, to please give a list of the kinds of attributes we see in genuine supernatural experiences and phenomena from God. **

I’m researching so many things right now that I was hoping you’d just have this to share with us, as I know you have made it an area of interest in your life. But if you don’t know, I guess I’ll see what I can find.

It would be helpful, I think, in helping people discern when they are being fooled.

Here’s one of my personal and most basic criteria: they don’t ask for money