Priest and Gospel reading

[Big_Feet]

hmmmm…
Isn’t there a saying out there about the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law?
Maybe the hardliners here should take that into consideration.
God is kind…especialy to the childeren of our world…

"But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Mt 19:14 (NAB)

I have no issues with the priest trying to let the childeren understand better and come closer to our God.

 

[Cathryn]

hmmmm…
Isn’t there a saying out there about the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law?
Maybe the hardliners here should take that into consideration.
God is kind…especialy to the childeren of our world…

"But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Mt 19:14 (NAB)

I have no issues with the priest trying to let the childeren understand better and come closer to our God.

Here is a great book I can recommend that would help understanding of the liturgy. To follow certain rules that the Church, our mother, says is important is not being unkind. :
The Spirit of the Liturgy by Pope Benedict XVI (Radzinger)

It is very orthodox and faithful to the teachings of the Church.

 

[triumphguy]

From the same article, you left out the part that said, **" I would say that if a Catholic finds spiritual profit in using the hand missal during Mass, then he or she is free to do so.
The very fact that the U.S. bishops’ liturgy committee felt the need for these guidelines is proof that they had no desire to merely abolish the use of missals and other participation aids." **

There is only one “Book of the Gospel” and one Proclamation from it at every Mass, even if the parishoners use missalettes provided for by their pastors or themselves. There is no rule against having a missalette and using it. Especially as stated in the article you cite how one may find spiritual profit in using it. That is what it is about, right? It is about hearing the Word and doing it. We can use all our senses our ears, our eyes, and our hearts, and when there is incense our sense of smell as well. Hopefully you are acknowledging there is no sin involved and it is not a habit I have been called out on_it is a choice, that the Church allows.

Of course I’m choosing the texts top back up my argument

This is partly entertainment (but hopefully not at the expense of people’s feelings but I’m sure many of us enjoy a decent argument), partly educational for me, partly chatting with fellow Catholics and getting to know them through the computer, so none of my arguments are strictly what I would agree with in a real face to face situation. (I do have missals myself and so do my kids )

Except I do believe that good and faithful and devout priests could validly, and from a pastoral position choose to take the Gospel literally and symbolically among the children in a children’s liturgy.

It’s easy to say read the read the black and do the red. I’m a great fan of Fr. Z too. However, sometimes with kids (and I was a teacher and school administrator for a long time) you see all their little hopeful, snotty, expectant faces looking up, knowing that 80% of them will not be in a Church again for another 12 months, and you’ve just got to make the kind of gesture that reaches out to their little hearts rather than doing the red!

 

[superamazingman]

Jesus uses what he did to reach to everyone. i am not criticising or anything but it is a shame when people are so steeped in rules to realise the gospel is not being reached to everyone. all religions are at fault here in that we build our believe up around the rules given us rather than learn to hear and feel and continue to share the good news. we need to take comfort in the rules rather than find God and help others find him too.

Gosh, people. What is so hard about staying behind the ambo? This may be revelation to some, but the Mass isn’t the only time to teach. In fact, the emphasis of the Mass is not on teaching and instruction, and we should not pretend like it is.

 

[superamazingman]

At our church’s confirmation liturgy recently the Bishop both read the gospel and proclaimed his homily from the aisle between the pews. And a very good and strong homily it was too.

I know hands will go up in horror at this, but it was a fine sermon from a fine bishop to a great bunch of kids.

A “fine” bishop disobeyed the rubrics of the Mass, as layed down my Holy Mother Church, then gave a fine sermon to a great bunch of kids.

Your point is?

This is what everybody is missing: the Mass is not a feelgood experience. Just because the homily was wonderful, and the priest was reaching out to people does not exempt him from obedience to the rubrics!!!

 

[superamazingman]

" I would say that if a Catholic finds spiritual profit in using the hand missal during Mass, then he or she is free to do so.
The very fact that the U.S. bishops’ liturgy committee felt the need for these guidelines is proof that they had no desire to merely abolish the use of missals and other participation aids."

FYI: what the U.S. bishop’s liturgy committiee says doesn’t mean squat unless it’s approved by Rome. There’s no reason to trust them, since they have no authority, we’ve already seen they are ready to go directly against the rubrics of the Mass

 

[superamazingman]

hmmmm…
Isn’t there a saying out there about the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law?
Maybe the hardliners here should take that into consideration.
God is kind…especialy to the childeren of our world…

"But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Mt 19:14 (NAB)

I have no issues with the priest trying to let the childeren understand better and come closer to our God.

So now the children should gather around the altar? How about just do away with the whole formality, and turn Mass into a story time! With snacks, but not wine and bread, but cookies and juice, to allow the children to feel more comfortable.

 

[triumphguy]

A “fine” bishop disobeyed the rubrics of the Mass, as layed down my Holy Mother Church, then gave a fine sermon to a great bunch of kids.

Your point is?

This is what everybody is missing: the Mass is not a feelgood experience. Just because the homily was wonderful, and the priest was reaching out to people does not exempt him from obedience to the rubrics!!!

er… no it wasn’t a feelgood experience actually: it was a sermon on sexuality, abortion, euthanasia, the sanctity of life and the sacrifice necessary to be a soldier of Christ.

Yes, and he’s a fine Bishop, and a prayerful leader who has served this diocese for decades.

And sure the mass is not a feelgood experience - but nor is it a train timetable to be followed to the second.

Do you think God in his heaven is following every mass checking the red to make sure the priests are doing the right thing: or do you think He is more worried about whether the priests and bishops are feeding their flocks, and looking for the lost lambs.

God is engaged, through his Christ, in the re-presentation of the everlasting heavenly feast, and may actually rejoice in the pastoral acts of his Holy Shepherds as they reach out to their flocks.

 

[Cathryn]

I have participated in many excellent Masses for children. A children’s Mass can be done in conformity with the mind of the church using the approved adaptations without violating the rubrics set down by the Church.

This is text from the Introduction to the Lectionary approved for Masses with children. This is to show that having a special mass for little pre-school children gathered around the altar isn’t what the Church intends. The intent of the Church is to provide an adaptation for elementary age children (grades 1-8) that has the format of an ordinary Mass. It is still very much a “ritual celebration”, not “story time”.

The approved Lectionary explains the way the Word of God is carried and handled in the celebration of the Liturgy should be an eloquent witness to the Church’s reverence for the Scriptures. This is why the ambo is always to be used for the readings and the Proclamation of the Gospel. The GIRM dictates it’s use. The children experience the reverence that the Church gives to proclaiming the Word. The ambo represents Christ’s presence in the Church in His word. Remember, these are elementary age children, not pre-schoolers. They can understand.

:
**]Lectionary For Masses With Children **
Approved for use in the Diocese of the United States of America by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and Confirmed by the Apostolic See
Prepared by the Committee on the Liturgy National Conference of Catholic Bishops. 1993

1. Christ is present in the very act of gathering. Christ is also present in the proclamation of the word of God. This proclamation, if it is to promote a deeper experience of Christ’s presence, must be understood in its most complete sense. **It must be prepared for and experienced as the specific kind of event it is, namely, a ritual celebration composed of reading, dialogue in song, silence, and reflection, with the use of appropriate gestures and symbols. **

Purpose of Adaptation:

1. In adapting the liturgy for use with children, the Church’s goal is to nourish their faith and lead them to “active, conscious, and authentic” participation in the worship of the whole assembly, but not to establish a different rite for children.

Age Level:

15. The hearers of the word for whom this work is primarily intended are children of elementary grades [preadolescents]. DMC#6

The Lectionary and Other Objects Used in the Celebration:

1. ** By their beauty and by the reverent way in which they are carried and handled the books used for the celebration of the word of God should be eloquent witnesses to the Church’s reverence for the Scriptures. OLM #35 **** The Proclamation of the word transcends the mere communication of information and becomes a community-building celebration of God’s saving mystery especially when candles, banners, and processions magnify the word’s impact on eyes, and ears, in hearts and minds. **

Common Format:

1. **The preparation and celebration of liturgies for children begin with and flows from a clear desire to assist them to participate in the worship of the entire community. ** **This is best accomplished when the basic shape of the ritual used with the children, its symbols, gestures, and language is similar to that of the full assembly. ** The children are thus enabled to celebrate the paschal mystery of Christ on their own level of understanding and are led to the celebration of those same mysteries in the full assembly of the faithful.

 

[triumphguy]

About this lectionary

It was designed to be used at Masses where a large number of (pre-adolescent) children are present. Examples of such gatherings include Sunday Masses at which a large number of children are present along with adults (under certain circumstances; see below); Masses in which a separate liturgy of the word for children is celebrated; Masses at which most members of the assembly are children, such as school Masses or Masses for religious education students; other liturgical celebrations that include a liturgy of the word; and family prayer.

If children can be led out of the Church during mass to another room (not necessarily a chapel and 99% likely not to have an Ambo!!!) and have the Word read to them by lay person, while their parents listen to the Word in their pews, then I don’t see how on God’s green earth anyone could say that a priest presiding at a mass for Children could not take the Children’s Lectionary down to them and proclaim the Word in their midst.

 

[Cathryn]

About this lectionary

If children can be led out of the Church during mass to another room (not necessarily a chapel and 99% likely not to have an Ambo!!!) and have the Word read to them by lay person, while their parents listen to the Word in their pews, then I don’t see how on God’s green earth anyone could say that a priest presiding at a mass for Children could not take the Children’s Lectionary down to them and proclaim the Word in their midst.

That is a “Children’s Liturgy” removing the children from a regular Mass, leaving the rest of the parish in the Church, then they are led back in.

This thread is about Children’s Masses with the ritual of an ordinary Mass , not a Children’s Liturgy of the Word where the rubrics of the Mass do not have to be followed.

The priest presiding at a Mass is to always proclaim the Word from the ambo. The presider is acting in persona Christi, and the ambo represents Christ’s presence in His Word. That is why the presider at Mass is not free to just walk around the church with the Lectionary in his hand, reading as if it was just any book, as the OP asked about. Especially when the ambo remains empty. The Church says here she wants the children to experience the reverence that the Church has for Holy Scripture within the Mass and experience Christ’s presence in His word. The ambo symbolizes this presence of Christ in His word. You don’t leave the ambo empty during the proclamation of the word of God. Remember elementary age students, they can understand. The symbols of the Mass are supposed to be used.

1. The preparation and celebration of liturgies for children begin with and flows from a clear desire to assist them to participate in the worship of the entire community. This is best accomplished when the basic shape of the ritual used with the children, its symbols, gestures, and language is similar to that of the full assembly. The children are thus enabled to celebrate the paschal mystery of Christ on their own level of understanding and are led to the celebration of those same mysteries in the full assembly of the faithful.

 

[superamazingman]

er… no it wasn’t a feelgood experience actually: it was a sermon on sexuality, abortion, euthanasia, the sanctity of life and the sacrifice necessary to be a soldier of Christ.

Yes, and he’s a fine Bishop, and a prayerful leader who has served this diocese for decades.

And sure the mass is not a feelgood experience - but nor is it a train timetable to be followed to the second.

Do you think God in his heaven is following every mass checking the red to make sure the priests are doing the right thing: or do you think He is more worried about whether the priests and bishops are feeding their flocks, and looking for the lost lambs.

God is engaged, through his Christ, in the re-presentation of the everlasting heavenly feast, and may actually rejoice in the pastoral acts of his Holy Shepherds as they reach out to their flocks.

He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: and he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater.

 

[zab]

He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: and he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater.

Even the devil quotes scripture. None of us here have any reason to question the faithfulness of triumphguy’s bishop.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please keep the discussion civil, everyone, and remember not to post disparaging remarks about the clergy. Thank you all.

 

[sacredcow]

FYI: what the U.S. bishop’s liturgy committiee says doesn’t mean squat unless it’s approved by Rome. There’s no reason to trust them, since they have no authority, we’ve already seen they are ready to go directly against the rubrics of the Mass

wow, alot of good points raised in this thread.

The Bishops in multiple Church Teachings are affirmed as the authority for Liturgy both in their region and in their diocese. They are allowed to make pastoral adjustments to the liturgy, and it is only when they make “substantial” or “radical” departures from the Roman Missal that they are instructed to seek permission from Rome. Other than that, they don’t need the “recognitio” that everyone throws around so incorrectly, as if every adaptation requires it.

From Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[21.] It pertains to the diocesan Bishop, then, “within the limits of his competence, to set forth liturgical norms in his Diocese, by which all are bound”.[45] Still, the Bishop must take care not to allow the removal of that liberty foreseen by the norms of the liturgical books so that the celebration may be adapted in an intelligent manner to the Church building, or to the group of the faithful who are present, or to particular pastoral circumstances in such a way that the universal sacred rite is truly accommodated to human understanding.[46] (endquote)

this excerpt is significant because it strongly cautions bishops not to be too rigid in adapting the liturgy. It also says their decision is binding, sans the Recognitio. Again, this is a document from Rome itself, not the NCCB. I would encourage everyone to read the full text. It is a very balanced and beautiful document.

I understand that some people become uncomfortable about any adaptations made to the Mass, but we have to afford the bishops the respect they deserve. Rome has entrusted them with liturgical authority, and so should we. Communicate with them if you disagree or do not understand something they are doing, or just get on the phone and call the office of worship for your diocese and ask questions.

lastly, well intentioned people will make mistakes in trying to make appropriate adaptations. Bottom line if it bothers you or makes no sense, or you feel it is wrong, you have multiple places to go with your concerns: pastor, associate pastor, bishop, office of worship, liturgy committee, Rome, etc. The worst thing to do is be silent.

 

[Brendan]

wow, alot of good points raised in this thread.

The Bishops in multiple Church Teachings are affirmed as the authority for Liturgy both in their region and in their diocese. They are allowed to make pastoral adjustments to the liturgy, and it is only when they make “substantial” or “radical” departures from the Roman Missal that they are instructed to seek permission from Rome. Other than that, they don’t need the “recognitio” that everyone throws around so incorrectly, as if every adaptation requires it.

I would disagree with you, and I would base that on the exact same section of RS. Note the bolded

[21.] It pertains to the diocesan Bishop, then, “within the limits of his competence, to set forth liturgical norms in his Diocese, by which all are bound”.[45] **Still, the Bishop must take care not to allow the removal of that liberty **foreseen by the norms of the liturgical books so that the celebration may be adapted in an intelligent manner to the Church building, or to the group of the faithful who are present, or to particular pastoral circumstances in such a way that the universal sacred rite is truly accommodated to human understanding.[46] (endquote)

What bishops must care to do is not to restrict anything allowed in the rubrics of the Mass. The reason given for that is that it allows a priest to use the various freedoms given in the rubrics to accomodate various situations.

What RS does NOT allow is the additions of new content into the liturgy that it not providied for in the norms of the liturgical books.

Rather a bishop must stick to the the liberties that are “forseen by the norms of the liturgical books” and must not restrict them

 

[zab]

I would disagree with you, and I would base that on the exact same section of RS. Note the bolded

What bishops must care to do is not to restrict anything allowed in the rubrics of the Mass. The reason given for that is that it allows a priest to use the various freedoms given in the rubrics to accomodate various situations.

What RS does NOT allow is the additions of new content into the liturgy that it not providied for in the norms of the liturgical books.

Rather a bishop must stick to the the liberties that are “forseen by the norms of the liturgical books” and must not restrict them

I think it is possible that a bishop may be ignorant of certain rubrics and not really had the intention of violating the rules. Maybe he could use a gentle reminder concerning his actions pointing to the specific document and section. Bishops and priests are like the rest of us who sometimes make mistakes that need to be corrected. We just have to be careful not to paint someone as being unfaithful or not following the rules and rubrics when it was only a case of human error.