Priest Approval to Marry

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The original poster doesn’t need to answer Easter Joy’s questions here, but as the op prepares for talking to a priest, it would be helpful for her to prepare a response to these types of questions at least in her mind. Some priests may ask; some may not. Priests who might ask these kind of questions that Easter Joy posed may listen to the reply in order to determine if they will perform the marriage or not. Since the op hopes to get married in the Catholic Church, it may be helpful for the op to learn the kind of questions she may be asked regarding her living arrangements. She may not need to explain it to a priest, but she might.

To the op–I suggest you make an appointment to talk a priest. Some priests would perform a marriage the situation you described, while others may not. You are already aware that your living situation with a man who was baptized Lutheran but who now doesn’t practice his faith might present a challenge towards marriage in the Catholic, so prepare honest responses. 🙂
Right.
 
Another issue that I think is concerning is your description of your lifestyle as roommates–separate dishes, separate this, separate that.

I have concerns about how easy it will be to move from the roommate relationship to being spouses. In some ways it’s an obstacle, that you have an established pattern of so much separation in your lifestyle.

Once you get engaged, can you work more on doing projects together, so that you’ll have a good picture of what it will be like splitting household chores together as spouses? I don’t think that the roommate division of labor is a good preparation for a more spousal approach to dividing chores and working together.

Also, is the fact that it’s your house going to be a problem if you get married? Will he feel that it is really his home? After we got married, we moved out of our two studio apartments into a one bedroom apartment that was ours, not just his or mine, and it was such a relief not to be just a visitor anymore.

It’s possible that neither of these things is going to be an issue, but have a word with your boyfriend. Every conversation now saves 10 down the road.
 
The original poster doesn’t need to answer Easter Joy’s questions here, but as the op prepares for talking to a priest, it would be helpful for her to prepare a response to these types of questions at least in her mind. Some priests may ask; some may not. Priests who might ask these kind of questions that Easter Joy posed may listen to the reply in order to determine if they will perform the marriage or not. Since the op hopes to get married in the Catholic Church, it may be helpful for the op to learn the kind of questions she may be asked regarding her living arrangements. She may not need to explain it to a priest, but she might.

To the op–I suggest you make an appointment to talk a priest. Some priests would perform a marriage the situation you described, while others may not. You are already aware that your living situation with a man who was baptized Lutheran but who now doesn’t practice his faith might present a challenge towards marriage in the Catholic, so prepare honest responses. 🙂
Exactly. There is no reason she needs to answer here, but she ought to expect questions of this nature, not only from fellow parishioners whom she tells she is living with her fiance, but especially from the priest she asks to prepare her and her fiancé for marriage. Honest reflection on the decisions that lead her to her living arrangement prior to meeting with her pastor is more likely to lead to a fruitful discussion of the matter.

If I implied that she owed any of us an explanation, I apologize. I meant to defend the questions as apropos to her initial post, not to demand any answers to them here! She could have chosen to give a clarification, but I think she realizes that to ask a question or make a statement here is to solicit opinions. That is the nature of posting on an internet forum. No one ought to feel bound to seek opinions here. As for asking a narrow question and trying to keep it restricted to a narrow consideration–well, you can always try! :rolleyes:
 
I don’t see anything wrong or judgmental about Easter Joy’s post. She raises several good points that indeed could be very helpful to those in such a situation. Granted, the OP doesn’t have to answer them; however, these are questions a priest may in fact ask her to answer. Since this is presented online in a Catholic forum, Easter Joy is presenting them in straightforward manner. I think straightforward is considered by some to be unmerciful, and that is unfortunate.

To the OP: I respect your decision to not tell us why you and your fiancé chose to live together. In any event, it does give the appearance of scandal, and I think you should talk to a priest. He may ask you and your fiancé to not cohabitate. If he does, I would listen to him.

God Bless!
 
👍

I have been involved in Pre-Cana for many years and my experience is the same as you describe. Such a high percentage of couples going through the program are already living together, I sincerely doubt the OPs living arrangements will be the stumbling block some seem to think. Sure, it is possible you happen to run into a priest that gives you the third degree about scandal, but in my experience you will be far, far more likely to run into it from an average CAF poster than your average parish priest. Fear not.
 
Sure, it is possible you happen to run into a priest that gives you the third degree about scandal, but in my experience you will be far, far more likely to run into it from an average CAF poster than your average parish priest.
That would be unfortunate. The sin of scandal is no mere little thing. According to the Catechism it’s a grave offense.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P80.HTM

The Catechism references Mt 18:6 as it talks about this subject:
"If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
 
That would be unfortunate. The sin of scandal is no mere little thing. According to the Catechism it’s a grave offense.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P80.HTM

The Catechism references Mt 18:6 as it talks about this subject:
"If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
The OP is fortunate indeed then to have CAFer step in where the clergy fall short. Truly a blessing.
 
The OP is fortunate indeed then to have CAFer step in where the clergy fall short. Truly a blessing.
The clergy didn’t fall short, sir. It’s clearly in the Catechism, and I’m just providing reference. You said they could possibly run into a priest that may not treat scandal as a big deal, and
I’m merely saying that would be unfortunate, considering the Gospel and Catechism says something different.

It’s one thing to disagree and offer up references to support your argument, but it’s another thing entirely to be patronizing and uncharitable. Whatever approach you use is up to you. I will choose to treat you with respect.🙂
 
The clergy didn’t fall short, sir. It’s clearly in the Catechism, and I’m just providing reference. You said they could possibly run into a priest that may not treat scandal as a big deal, and I’m merely saying that would be unfortunate, considering the Gospel and Catechism says something different.

It’s one thing to disagree and offer up references to support your argument, but it’s another thing entirely to be patronizing and uncharitable. Whatever approach you use is up to you. I will choose to treat you with respect.🙂
The written marriage policy for the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon puts it this way:

It is important to honor the right of Catholics to marry in the church. Priests may not add impediments or prohibitions not included in Canon Law…While it is good to encourage engaged couples to live separately before marriage, they should not be refused the Sacrament on the grounds of their co-habitation…Couples seeking marriage in the Church should be encouraged to participate in Mass and the sacraments, but they may not be refused marriage in the Church for the reason of not having been active Catholics.

The priest is duty-bound to marry two Catholics who have the right to marry. Of course a priest must dutifully avoid witnessing an attempt at marriage that will have defects barring validity, but at the same time he must dutifully honor the right to marry.

Pastors have to balance those things, not to mention their pastoral care of their parishioners. Those can be and are rightly handled differently by different priests, in different dioceses, and even from one couple to the next. What we are saying here is more like the medical advice you’d get by posing an anonymous question to a medical web site. It can help you to prepare to meet your physician–in this case, the physician of your soul and the souls in your parish, with whom you are one body in Christ. Our advice and opinions should not be made into more than that. It should never be considered a substitute for honest communication with one’s pastor.
 
The Catechism on scandal.
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/13506d.htm
According to St. Thomas (II-II:43:1) scandal is a word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin. It is a word or action, that is either an external act—for an internal act can have no influence on the conduct of another—or the omission of an external act, because to omit what one should do is equivalent to doing what is forbidden; it must be evil in itself, or in appearance; this is the interpretation of the words of St. Thomas: minus rectum. It is not the physical cause of a neighbor’s sin, but only the moral cause, or occasion; further, this moral causality may be understood in a strict sense, as when one orders, requests, or advises another to commit the sin (this is strictly inductive scandal, which some call co-operation in a broad sense), or in a large sense, as when a person without being directly concerned in the sin nevertheless exercises a certain influence on the sin of his neighbor, e.g. by committing such a sin in his presence (this is inductive scandal in a broad sense). For scandal to exist it is therefore essential and sufficient, with regard to the nature of the act and the circumstances under which it takes place, that it be of a nature to induce sin in another; consequently it is not necessary that the neighbour should actually fall into sin; and on the other hand, for scandal strictly so-called, it is not enough that a neighbour take occasion to do evil from a word or action which is not a subject of scandal and exercises no influence on his action; it must be a cause of spiritual ruin, that is of sin, consequently that is not scandal which merely dissuades the neighbour from a more perfect act, as for instance, prayer, the practice of the Evangelical virtues, the more frequent use of the sacraments, etc. Still less can that be considered scandal, which only arouses comment, indignation, horror etc., for instance blasphemy committed in the presence of a priest or of a religious; it is true that the act arouses indignation and in common parlance it is often called scandalous, but this way of speaking is inaccurate, and in strictly theological terminology it is not the sin of scandal. Hence scandal is in itself an evil act, at least in appearance, and as such it exercises on the will of another an influence more or less great which induces to sin. Furthermore, when the action from which another takes occasion of sin is not bad, either in itself or in appearance, it may violate charity (see below), but strictly speaking it is not the sin of scandal. However, some authorities understanding the word scandal in a wider sense include in it this case
Scandal is often misunderstood as having its secular meaning, of “an action or event regarded as morally or legally wrong and causing general public outrage.”

Someone living as brother and sister who is committed to chastity would not be necessarily committing “scandal” just because people think the wrong thing about their situation.
 
You said they could possibly run into a priest that may not treat scandal as a big deal, and
I’m merely saying that would be unfortunate, considering the Gospel and Catechism says something different.
I actually went as far to say that the OP running into a priest who gives them the third degree about scandal is quite unlikely.

I believe that parish priests understand their flock. They realize that only a tiny percentage are like CAFers , super well catechized with their own spiritual directors etc. …so they don’t treat them as such. It’s hardly likely that a typical parish priest, addressing a couple coming to him for marriage counsel, will lecture them about scandal when the vast majority of marriage candidates that these priests are sending to PreCana are cohabitating.

The OP is totally worked up and anxious about speaking to her priest about her situation. I don’t think it benefits the OP to wind her up further by asking her to prepare for the 3rd degree on scandal when it is not likely to happen.
 
I actually went as far to say that the OP running into a priest who gives them the third degree about scandal is quite unlikely.

I believe that parish priests understand their flock. They realize that only a tiny percentage are like CAFers , super well catechized with their own spiritual directors etc. …so they don’t treat them as such. It’s hardly likely that a typical parish priest, addressing a couple coming to him for marriage counsel, will lecture them about scandal when the vast majority of marriage candidates that these priests are sending to PreCana are cohabitating.

The OP is totally worked up and anxious about speaking to her priest about her situation. I don’t think it benefits the OP to wind her up further by asking her to prepare for the 3rd degree on scandal when it is not likely to happen.
Actually, being “worked up” might be God trying to say something to her-- like…move out.
 
I actually went as far to say that the OP running into a priest who gives them the third degree about scandal is quite unlikely.

I believe that parish priests understand their flock. They realize that only a tiny percentage are like CAFers , super well catechized with their own spiritual directors etc. …so they don’t treat them as such. It’s hardly likely that a typical parish priest, addressing a couple coming to him for marriage counsel, will lecture them about scandal when the vast majority of marriage candidates that these priests are sending to PreCana are cohabitating.

The OP is totally worked up and anxious about speaking to her priest about her situation. I don’t think it benefits the OP to wind her up further by asking her to prepare for the 3rd degree on scandal when it is not likely to happen.
I agree that priests should always demonstrate Christ’s mercy without exception. However, what is your definition of the “third degree of scandal”? You’ve referenced that many times. It gives the impression that it isn’t a big deal, which isn’t true. That is what my response to you was about. I’m not saying that the OP should prepare for condemnation. She along with her fiancé should be shown compassion. What I am saying is that the priest may advise the couple to not cohabitate due to the appearance of scandal, and may also ask some questions. Would that be considered the third degree?

Here’s my original post to the OP:
To the OP: I respect your decision to not tell us why you and your fiancé chose to live together. In any event, it does give the appearance of scandal, and I think you should talk to a priest. He may ask you and your fiancé to not cohabitate. If he does, I would listen to him.
God Bless!
 
I agree that priests should always demonstrate Christ’s mercy without exception. However, what is your definition of the “third degree of scandal”? You’ve referenced that many times. It gives the impression that it isn’t a big deal, which isn’t true. That is what my response to you was about. I’m not saying that the OP should prepare for condemnation. She along with her fiancé should be shown compassion. What I am saying is that the priest may advise the couple to not cohabitate due to the appearance of scandal, and may also ask some questions. Would that be considered the third degree?
There’s also the issue of the couple having enough freedom to marry validly.

That’s an even more high stakes issue, and it’s very compassionate to mention it.
 
I actually went as far to say that the OP running into a priest who gives them the third degree about scandal is quite unlikely.

I believe that parish priests understand their flock. They realize that only a tiny percentage are like CAFers , super well catechized with their own spiritual directors etc. …so they don’t treat them as such. It’s hardly likely that a typical parish priest, addressing a couple coming to him for marriage counsel, will lecture them about scandal when the vast majority of marriage candidates that these priests are sending to PreCana are cohabitating.

The OP is totally worked up and anxious about speaking to her priest about her situation. I don’t think it benefits the OP to wind her up further by asking her to prepare for the 3rd degree on scandal when it is not likely to happen.
She should **not **be afraid to speak to her pastor. If she gets nothing else from this thread, let her get that much!

No matter who her pastor is, he is not unaccustomed to having couples come in for the purpose of arranging a wedding who are unmarried and quite openly living *as man and wife *without the benefit of marriage. There are very few pastors who will be harsh even with couples in that situation, since at least they are finally coming around to getting married. Their pastors do not want to cement them in a situation that is best rectified, instead driving them away from their intention to get to the altar and exchange vows!

No, with someone in her situation–that is, someone living with her fiancé as brother and sister–she is most likely to be cautioned by her pastor about how much more difficult most couples find it to maintain chastity as their wedding date nears, and how much less difficult that is when living apart. She has pure and praiseworthy intentions, and he’ll want to help her keep her pure and praiseworthy resolve. He might also point out the “scandal” element, which as you rightly note is not that other people would be upset at two Christians living together without being married, but that people might further get accustomed to cohabitation prior to marriage being “the norm” even among Christians. If he does not do that very gently, however, it would be most unusual, since this is a woman who “gets” it with regards to the most important question.
 
The OP is totally worked up and anxious about speaking to her priest about her situation. I don’t think it benefits the OP to wind her up further by asking her to prepare for the 3rd degree on scandal when it is not likely to happen.
** Rico S, thank you for this.

And thank you to other kind users who gave kind words: (name removed by moderator), FrDavid96 & Irishmom2.

I am not going to name users who I feel have been judgemental and self-righteous. I am going to say that I don’t appreciate it. I am going to ask you to please stop. God would not want this of us. Everyone here is on the same team. We are here to help one another, not to beat each other down. **
 
** Rico S, thank you for this.

And thank you to other kind users who gave kind words: (name removed by moderator), FrDavid96 & Irishmom2.

I am not going to name users who I feel have been judgemental and self-righteous. I am going to say that I don’t appreciate it. I am going to ask you to please stop. God would not want this of us. Everyone here is on the same team. We are here to help one another, not to beat each other down. **
Wow, I think that was an extremely uncharitable thing to say. You are stating that the users who you didn’t mention are self-righteous. In fact, that is very judgmental in itself, and is likewise not appreciated. No one said anything remotely disrespectful to you. In fact, every single person has showered you with respect and tried to give you solid advice. We may not agree with your decision to cohabit, but we never were anything but respectful. You posted on an online forum, and we sincerely were trying to help. I am not self righteous just because I have an opinion that differs from you.

Best of luck and I’ll be praying that your issue is resolved.
 
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