Priest asked me to change or leave

[JReducation]

I would suggest that everyone take a step back and think about this before continuing to comment. We are assuming the original post is accurate. Well. . . we have no reason to believe that it’s inaccurate.

We’re assuming that the poster understood what the priest is saying. Well . . . we have no reason to believe that the poster misunderstood or reason to believe that the poster understood. This would not be a malicious act on the part of the poster. This happens all the time. We think we understand and things turn out to be different.

I noticed that some people quickly jumped to play what I call “The Bishop Card”. I say this with charity and humor. Bishops don’t have authority over everything that happens in their dioceses. There are certain ministries, priests and religious that are outside of the jurisdiction of the bishop. Newman programs have a government of their own. If this is a true Newman chapel, it is part of the Newman Society. The Principle of Subsidiarity requires that one begin with the Society.

I’m going to assume that the report is accurate. If this is the case, the priest could have delivered the same message with more tact. However, human beings are not always tactful . . . unfortunately. I would also suggest asking him why kneeling is a problem. The norm is that one kneels for the Eucharistic Prayer. Finally, I would encourage people in these situations that it never honors God if we engage in unnecessary battle with our brothers and sisters in order to honor him. It’s almost a contradiction. Some battles are necessary and some are not. Were I the priest or the congregant, this is one battle that I would avoid unless there is a real inconvenience or physical danger.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Allegra]

I would take my knees and bounce. There’s got to be a proper church close by. I never heard of not kneeling during the Eucharist until I went to a church while visiting Wisconsin. I wish someone could explain to me what the argument against kneeling could possibly be. You’re in the presence of God, for crying out loud! Granted, some people are not physically fit enough to kneel, or perhaps are in a place where there isnt’ room such as a choir loft. Otherwise, why wouldn’t you want to kneel? The only word to describe this is ‘stupid’.

 

[ConstantineTG]

They are not/were not - in the presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. There would be no reason for them to kneel.

~Liza

I’m wondering about if they knelt at all for any reason.

 

[JReducation]

I’m wondering about if they knelt at all for any reason.

This is a little off topic. But I doubt that they knelt. As a Jew I know that our people have never knelt for prayer or as a sign of adoration. We bow. Prostration was also an ancient custom, which is not commonly used in modern day Jewry.

I believe that the custom of kneeling is a Latin custom that the Roman Christians brought into the Church. Kneeling before the emperor/king was common to Greeks and Romans, even moreso among Romans. It makes perfect sense, that they would kneel before the Lord God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Godfollower]

{Snip}.

To the OP: If I remember correctly from your previous post, you have recently joined the choir. {Snip}

Wait a second – the priest is asking a member of the choir not to kneel? Isn’t that a whole different scenario?

The GIRM says about kneeling:

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal ¶ 43.

The priest might well be perfectly justified in deciding that kneeling is too disruptive when it happens in the choir. We don’t have the full story here; perhaps the choir area is too narrow or crowded; perhaps choir members have been delaying Mass by spreading out from risers so they can kneel down; perhaps the choir blocks acolytes’ access when they kneel. All of those situations would be the “]other reasonable cause” contemplated by the GIRM.

There are all kinds of reasons a priest might be perfectly justified in telling a choir member not to kneel. Perhaps the OP can fill us in on what’s going on, but I suggest we lay off the “Report this guy to the bishop” talk in light of the apparent lack of information we’ve been given.

 

[Vico]

Sit in the last row and kneel. I feel like I should kneel, as well ,and am usually one of a few who do so.

Does anyone know the( theological or liturgical) reasons we are supposed to stand rather than kneel?

Since there are different moods withing the liturgy the postures follow.

Customary Biblical:
sitting for learning
standing for reverence (and resurrection of Christ)
kneeling for penance, supplication, humility

 

[Joey89511]

I would suggest that everyone take a step back and think about this before continuing to comment. We are assuming the original post is accurate. Well. . . we have no reason to believe that it’s inaccurate.

We’re assuming that the poster understood what the priest is saying. Well . . . we have no reason to believe that the poster misunderstood or reason to believe that the poster understood. This would not be a malicious act on the part of the poster. This happens all the time. We think we understand and things turn out to be different.

I noticed that some people quickly jumped to play what I call “The Bishop Card”. I say this with charity and humor. Bishops don’t have authority over everything that happens in their dioceses. There are certain ministries, priests and religious that are outside of the jurisdiction of the bishop. Newman programs have a government of their own. If this is a true Newman chapel, it is part of the Newman Society. The Principle of Subsidiarity requires that one begin with the Society.

I’m going to assume that the report is accurate. If this is the case, the priest could have delivered the same message with more tact. However, human beings are not always tactful . . . unfortunately. I would also suggest asking him why kneeling is a problem. The norm is that one kneels for the Eucharistic Prayer. Finally, I would encourage people in these situations that it never honors God if we engage in unnecessary battle with our brothers and sisters in order to honor him. It’s almost a contradiction. Some battles are necessary and some are not. Were I the priest or the congregant, this is one battle that I would avoid unless there is a real inconvenience or physical danger.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As an additional note he ended the conversation with, “And if you wish to report me my last name is Fallon.” (Just for clarity I’ve been going to this Parish for roughly six months so he knows that I know his name) So I don’t believe that the tone of this conversation was misunderstood - it was clear. I share your belief that Priests are often misunderstood, but in this circumstance it was all but unclear. Additionally, I was not instructed to stand in the capacity of a choir member. He did mention that as well but it was not the focus of the conversation.

 

[sistermouse]

They are not/were not - in the presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. There would be no reason for them to kneel.

~Liza

Why weren’t they in the presence??

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is a little off topic. But I doubt that they knelt. As a Jew I know that our people have never knelt for prayer or as a sign of adoration. We bow. Prostration was also an ancient custom, which is not commonly used in modern day Jewry.

I believe that the custom of kneeling is a Latin custom that the Roman Christians brought into the Church. Kneeling before the emperor/king was common to Greeks and Romans, even moreso among Romans. It makes perfect sense, that they would kneel before the Lord God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Brother JR. I know that verse has been used so much to imply that kneeling before Christ is a mandated order from St. Paul in his epistle. I suspect that St. Paul wasn’t even talking about kneeling at all, which brought me to the question. I know like in the Byzantine Rite, which is where the Greek Churches back then would be today, we do prostrations, which I think is the more ancient practice of worship. The Muslims also have adopted the same prostrations from the Eastern Christians, and probably the Jews. Can you confirm that?

http://gabrielsmessage.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/metanoia_service_twelve_gospels.jpg?w=300&h=199

Not to really drag this thread off topic, but everytime kneeling is discussed in CAF, that verse is brought out. I just want to get to the bottom of what St. Paul really meant. Otherwise we’ve bought into the Protestantism of isolating verses and interpreting it to a way that is advantageous to our own personal beliefs, rather than what the verse really means.

 

[Margie9]

I am so tired of this sad story. This has been clarified by the Vatican, by the Office for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, by Cardinal Arinze, by other Vatican representatives. Fr. Zuhlsdorf had an article on it less than a year ago.

A Catholic has the RIGHT to kneel in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, anywhere, anytime, regardless of the PERSONAL disposition of the Priest. But during the Eucharistic Prayer/Consecration, this right to kneel is particularly important since those are the rubrics of the Mass, even if they do it otherwise there. THEY are making exceptions, you are entitled to follow the standard form.

You are acting properly to kneel when you feel compelled to, to respect the Sacrament. Your conscience is clear. You are not misbehaving nor doing anything wrong. Therefore the priest cannot ask you to leave the church. You are a Catholic in good standing, you can enter any Catholic church on this planet and a bishop may not tell you to leave.

If you want to stay at that Church, do so and just ignore the priest. I only fear he is the all too common type that will try to belittle or intimidate you to stand or leave. HE HAS NO RIGHT OR AUTHORITY TO DO SO! I see he presumed on your youth and/or innocence to try to give you the impression you had to follow his illegal command.

DO WHAT YOU WANT. YOU ARE OK. I will try to find some citation.

 

[JReducation]

As an additional note he ended the conversation with, “And if you wish to report me my last name is Fallon.” (Just for clarity I’ve been going to this Parish for roughly six months so he knows that I know his name) So I don’t believe that the tone of this conversation was misunderstood - it was clear. I share your belief that Priests are often misunderstood, but in this circumstance it was all but unclear. Additionally, I was not instructed to stand in the capacity of a choir member. He did mention that as well but it was not the focus of the conversation.

I’m a little confused here. Is this a canonical parish or a Newman chapel. Second, I do believe that this should have been left alone. It’s not worth the conflict. If you can ask Father why he insists that you stand, it may help open the door for a fruitful dialogue. If he gives you an answer that you don’t like too much, let it go. It’s not one of those battles that one must win. It’s unfortunate that it’s even a point of discussion at all. As I said above, I would have left it alone, unless there is a real inconvenience to others.

Thank you Brother JR. I know that verse has been used so much to imply that kneeling before Christ is a mandated order from St. Paul in his epistle. I suspect that St. Paul wasn’t even talking about kneeling at all, which brought me to the question. I know like in the Byzantine Rite, which is where the Greek Churches back then would be today, we do prostrations, which I think is the more ancient practice of worship. The Muslims also have adopted the same prostrations from the Eastern Christians, and probably the Jews. Can you confirm that?

http://gabrielsmessage.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/metanoia_service_twelve_gospels.jpg?w=300&h=199

Not to really drag this thread off topic, but everytime kneeling is discussed in CAF, that verse is brought out. I just want to get to the bottom of what St. Paul really meant. Otherwise we’ve bought into the Protestantism of isolating verses and interpreting it to a way that is advantageous to our own personal beliefs, rather than what the verse really means.

It is very unlikely that St. Paul meant this phrase as we want him to mean it. This is part of an ancient Jewish canticle calling on man to acknowledge the greatness of God. We find it in Isaiah and Ezekiel. In Romans, Paul quotes Issaiah. Then he quotes himself Philippians. We know that this did not mean that Jews knelt from the time of Issaiah.

I’m not taking a position against the rubrics. I’m just saying that the rubrics do not come from Paul. Were that the case, they would be common to the universal Church, East and West, since the universal Church has full posession of the Scripture.

As I said above, this is a Roman custom brought into Christianity by Roman converts and it’s appropriate. Imagine kneeling for Caesar and not doing so for Christ. It would make no sense in the mind of these people. It makes no sense in our minds today.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

Do first century Jews of Greeks kneel?

I don’t know. It seems immaterial.

But I have lots of difficulty standing, especially after I pull my back. So I would leave if someone forced me to stand.

 

[Cat]

I would not stay where my soul was in such conflict.

Let it be. Leave in peace and find a parish where you can be at peace with God, your own soul, and with the others who worship with you.

Often in CAF threads, I wonder why people seem to court controversy by attending a parish that they KNOW makes them angry and upset.

I realize that if you’re travelling and have to find a Mass near your hotel or campground, sometimes you end up with something that is not what you prefer. Well, why make a fuss about a parish that you will never have to attend again?

But in your own town or city, surely you can just stop attending the troublesome Mass and find a Mass that is more suited for your personality and preferences. In our parish, there are nine Masses on Sat/Sun, and all are different, and I think that most people can find at least one of these Masses that meets the needs of their soul.

If our parish is still too modern for you, we have quite a few Catholic parishes in the city, including a TLM parish, and including several very old and beautiful parishes. I would suggest that people do a little “Mass shopping” and try to find the parish and Mass where they can be at peace with themselves and others, and not constantly be in a battle.

The only problem I can see is if the OP (or others in the same situation) do not have transportation to another parish. That didn’t seem to be an issue with this OP. But if it is an issue with anyone, my suggestion is to call the parish and ask if anyone would be able to give a ride, and then offer to chip in a small amount for gas.

 

[johnnykins]

I am going to a Newman Church and at this Church they do not kneel during consecration. I tried standing but I felt as though I was disrespecting the Eucharist, I felt very guilty. The Priest last weekend approached me and told me that when we spoke he told me I was guilty due to an ill informed conscience. When we were concluding our conversation he told me, “If you chose to kneel there are plenty of other parishes in the area where you are welcome, but you are not welcome here.” After this conversation I researched the issue and made the decision that I indeed have an informed conscience, I don’t think that I should ignore my conscience. My question is do you think I should abandon my conscience or simply switch parishes? Let me also say that I love the people at the Newman center, but want to make the right decision.

I don’t think I’ve EVER heard of a priest asking someone to leave and telling them they are not welcome for any reason other than protesters and the disruptive, and at well over 55 I’ve heard plenty of junk. It’s beyond stunning that kneeling at Mass can possibly fall into one of those categories. This must be one of those extra-special welcoming communities that welcomes everyone but the believer.

I would certainly leave. I would also certainly write a letter, with names, dates, witnesses - all very factual - to your Bishop with a copy to:
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
The Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples
The Congregation for the Clergy
The Pontifical Council for the Laity

I cannot imagine someone - ANYONE - is not welcome in a Catholic Church due to kneeling!

 

[Newbie2]

I guess the priest has the right to ask people to leave for any reason, but I’d be more concerned about his focus on God as he’s offering the Holy Sacrifice. Seems like this only adds to the need of the ad orientem posture for saying Mass.

Not really. I’m not a canon lawyer, but I’m certain that there needs to be a good reason for asking a person to leave the parish.

But to the OP: You need to decide whether or not this is worth going to the mat over. IF you decide to stay and kneel, there’s going to be an ongoing problem. Let’s say the priest asks you to leave. How is he going to enforce that? Call the cops? Stop mass and embarrass you in front of the congregation?

Are you prepared to deal with this if it happens? If so, you’ll need to contact the Bishop, etc, as others have suggested.

IF you choose to leave and find a parish where they “welcome” kneeling, are you then going to let it go or still press the issue with the priest at your present parish by contacting the Bishop, etc?

It seems to me that the answer lies in how much this particular issue means to you personally, not in what others think. I’ve got the personality that I would probably compromise by going to another parish, but still press the issue with the Bishop, etc.

That, for me, would separate the immediate issue of the possibility of the Priest doing something radical to keep me from kneeling, and give me peace during mass while addressing the not being welcome at the other parish issue, not in a vengeful way but in a “I too have certain preferences taht are protected by certain rights as a Catholic that you as a Priest need to respect” way.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m a little confused here. Is this a canonical parish or a Newman chapel. Second, I do believe that this should have been left alone. It’s not worth the conflict. If you can ask Father why he insists that you stand, it may help open the door for a fruitful dialogue. If he gives you an answer that you don’t like too much, let it go. It’s not one of those battles that one must win. It’s unfortunate that it’s even a point of discussion at all. As I said above, I would have left it alone, unless there is a real inconvenience to others.

You know Brother, I clicked into this thread just now and read the first 10 or so posts and thought to myself… what’s wrong with saying, “Yes Father” and just doing what he asked? Why do we have to challenge everything? Isn’t there a benefit to a little humility and just saying, “Yea, I don’t like it but I’ll do it anyway” simply because the guy asked?

And why do we have to abandon ship every time something we don’t like takes place? As soon as they play one song we don’t like or one guy looks at us the wrong way, we jump over the railing into the sea and start swimming for another boat. That doesn’t make sense to me.

I asked a Cistercian monk about his vows and was surprised at his response that they don’t vow poverty, but do vow obedience and stability. “This is where I’m going to die” he said. I’ve carried that converstation in my heart for a long time and it has helped me overcome restlessness. We are so restless.

Nothing really of value in my post, I suppose, but maybe I should have been a monk.

-Tim-

 

[Newbie2]

You know Brother, I clicked into this thread just now and read the first 10 or so posts and thought to myself… what’s wrong with saying, “Yes Father” and just doing what he asked? Why do we have to challenge everything? Isn’t there a benefit to a little humility and just saying, “Yea, I don’t like it but I’ll do it anyway” simply because the guy asked?

-Tim-

Assuming the OP was entirely accurate, there needs to be some degree of reconciliation on both the part of the priest and the OP, methinks.

Yeah, I agree that such would be an excellent solution, but I have to wonder what other autocratic demands the priest has made on his parishioners.

 

[dailey]

I am so tired of this sad story. This has been clarified by the Vatican, by the Office for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, by Cardinal Arinze, by other Vatican representatives. Fr. Zuhlsdorf had an article on it less than a year ago.

A Catholic has the RIGHT to kneel in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, anywhere, anytime, regardless of the PERSONAL disposition of the Priest. But during the Eucharistic Prayer/Consecration, this right to kneel is particularly important since those are the rubrics of the Mass, even if they do it otherwise there. THEY are making exceptions, you are entitled to follow the standard form.

You are acting properly to kneel when you feel compelled to, to respect the Sacrament. Your conscience is clear. You are not misbehaving nor doing anything wrong. Therefore the priest cannot ask you to leave the church. You are a Catholic in good standing, you can enter any Catholic church on this planet and a bishop may not tell you to leave.

If you want to stay at that Church, do so and just ignore the priest. I only fear he is the all too common type that will try to belittle or intimidate you to stand or leave. HE HAS NO RIGHT OR AUTHORITY TO DO SO! I see he presumed on your youth and/or innocence to try to give you the impression you had to follow his illegal command.

DO WHAT YOU WANT. YOU ARE OK. I will try to find some citation.

THANK YOU so much for posting this. I was beginning to think by some of the responses that I was “wrong” or being “disrespectful” for kneeling.

 

[Corki]

You know Brother, I clicked into this thread just now and read the first 10 or so posts and thought to myself… what’s wrong with saying, “Yes Father” and just doing what he asked? Why do we have to challenge everything? Isn’t there a benefit to a little humility and just saying, “Yea, I don’t like it but I’ll do it anyway” simply because the guy asked?

-Tim-

In many ways I agree with you. And if it was just a matter of preference, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, when you know that what the priest is asking you to do is wrong, there is a point where it is also wrong to obey. In this case, the priest said he didn’t believe he had to follow the instructions in the GIRM. That’s seriously wrong. While the responsibility for the wrongdoing with regard to rubrics is more on the priest than the parishioner, once you know that it’s wrong, isn’t cooperating with disobedience almost as wrong as disobeying yourself?

 

[ConstantineTG]

It is very unlikely that St. Paul meant this phrase as we want him to mean it. This is part of an ancient Jewish canticle calling on man to acknowledge the greatness of God. We find it in Isaiah and Ezekiel. In Romans, Paul quotes Issaiah. Then he quotes himself Philippians. We know that this did not mean that Jews knelt from the time of Issaiah.

I’m not taking a position against the rubrics. I’m just saying that the rubrics do not come from Paul. Were that the case, they would be common to the universal Church, East and West, since the universal Church has full posession of the Scripture.

As I said above, this is a Roman custom brought into Christianity by Roman converts and it’s appropriate. Imagine kneeling for Caesar and not doing so for Christ. It would make no sense in the mind of these people. It makes no sense in our minds today.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Brother JR. I’m not trying to justify not kneeling. My curiosity just stems from what I have learned in my journey East. I did suspect a full prostration is probably what St. Paul meant when he said “every knee shall bow” because its what people in the East do. You see this with Eastern Christians and even Muslims.

I do not oppose kneeling in the Roman Rite. In fact one time there was a mixup on Divine Liturgy schedule and I came right at the end (I thought it was starting at 11am but they started at 9:30 am so when I came at 10:50 they were just exiting the church). I went to a 5pm Mass in a nearby RC parish instead. They did not kneel after the Agnus Dei. In fact I was the only one kneeling then.