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ConstantineTG
Guest
I just think the verse quoted should be given justice. I’m not against kneeling, but if St. Paul isn’t talking about kneeling then we shouldn’t make it sound like he is.
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Ben_F
Guest
In my Church we have about 30 percent kneeling, 30 perccent sitting, and 30 percent standing. It´s a third world nation Church. Nobody minds. Not even the Priest. That´s just fine with me. I hope I´m too busy looking at my Savior to even recognize what my Christian brothers and sisters are doing. God bless:thumbsup:
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ConstantineTG
Guest
You have the right attitude, I salute youIn my Church we have about 30 percent kneeling, 30 perccent sitting, and 30 percent standing. It´s a third world nation Church. Nobody minds. Not even the Priest. That´s just fine with me. I hope I´m too busy looking at my Savior to even recognize what my Christian brothers and sisters are doing. God bless:thumbsup:
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TheMc
Guest
Shouldn’t he mind?You have the right attitude, I salute you
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Tighty_Whitey
Guest
I am creeped out by this priest’s reaction. I would not want to attend services where he was officiating. Chances are good that you’ll love the people at the next church too!
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TimothyH
Guest
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ConstantineTG
Guest
There’s a right time and a right place for everything. Why are we more concerned about the piety of others? Is it our place to judge others? Jesus said we should worry about the planks in our own eyes rather than worrying about the speck in others. If God is truly offended by the actions of these people, then they will answer to God when the time comes. In the meantime, we who think we know better, should act like we know better. Turn our focus on God and do what our own conscience calls us out to do in praising, worshiping and giving ourselves entirely to God.
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ProVobis
Guest
As a practical matter, I think it’s more than an issue of preference. Isn’t it considered rude at ballgames, for example, if you stand just for the sake of standing and block the view of those sitting behind you? And even if you have everyone standing, obviously those shorter in size are at a disadvantage to see. Don’t you see young kids standing on the kneeling pad or even standing on the seat so that they can see better at times? And aren’t those the very people who should see what is happening? So I would think that there should be a theological reason, not so much for kneeling, but to even allow standing at the consecration.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
But I think if one cannot kneel, then one should stand. But most just sit if they cannot kneel. How do we resolve that?
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Corki
Guest
I think it’s a combination of two factors. For some elderly, it would be hard for them to stand through the whole EP so sitting is just more expedient that standing as long as possible and then sitting. But many people don’t know. They see “kneel” in the missalette and, if they can’t kneel, they think sitting or the half-sit/half-kneel is less conspicuous than standing. Some simple instruction in the misslette or from the priest could resolve that.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I guess the other issue that ProVobis pointed out is that some people who are kneeling may want that view of the altar. So if one who has sore knees from playing sports, for example, standing in front of one who is kneeling, may cause some issues.
Its complicated
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fall_fox
Guest
fall fox
It could be that what I say here isn’t what our kneeling at the Consecration or even Genuflecting is all about, but here’s my take on it.
When a person goes down on their knees, they are putting themselves in a very venerable position, especially is ancient times where the weapon of choice was a sword. This is why this was done when approaching a King or even a person of higher rank. It is easy how this action was transfered to our King, Our Lord Jesus the Christ, only it became a sign of respect.
Today if a person is healthy, they should go down on that one knee, genuflect, to show respect when they enter God’s house. I have had both knees replaced, but I still can’t allow myself to just bow. I need to hang on to a pew, and I don’t get all the way down to the floor, but I must do what I can do to show proper respect for Jesus. I also have six grandchildren that I, my wife, along with their parents, are trying to show the proper example.
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fall_fox
Guest
fall foxI guess the other issue that ProVobis pointed out is that some people who are kneeling may want that view of the altar. So if one who has sore knees from playing sports, for example, standing in front of one who is kneeling, may cause some issues. Its complicated
As I have said in this same thread, I have had both knees replaced and I’m not supposed to kneel on them, and I don’t half kneel, half sit, I sit. I’m not real fond of having to do this but I do sit on the edge of the seat so I don’t bother those folks behind me. I wouldn’t stand for the same reason.
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fall_fox
Guest
fall fox
My gosh, we don’t like to criticize our Priests, but when they want to make up their own rules what else is there to do? If everything is as it is written here, he is wrong. Even if he was able to get his parish to stand during the consecration, he could not be focused on what he was supposed to be doing if he were aware that one person in church was kneeling in stead of standing.
For me it is difficult when I know a Priest is not following the rules sent down by the Vatican. Who do they think they are? For example, I suppose no one is going to go to hell for using glass Sacred Vessels. No, but is there a sin of disobedience? Run to the Bishop? Well that is the last resource. Try to fix it in house, maybe the Liturgy Committee, possibly the Office of Worship of the diocese.
Where is this Priests humility, where is his charity, where is God’s servant.
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JReducation
Guest
Everyone is talking about this “parish” and sending letters to the bishop and the pope, etc. But the question has not been answered. Folks, we should never give advice unless we have the information.
I asked, “Is this a Newman Chapel or is it a canonically erected parish?” There is a big difference.
If the rubrics are violated in one or in the other, you do not appeal to the same authority. If the one priest is bullying a person you appeal to his superior. If he’s a Newman chaplain, that superior is not the bishop. The bishop will simply ignore your letter. Bishops have enough to do taking care of their ministries without having to get involved in someone else’s. If the priest is a religious, again the chain of command is different.
I think we need to back off on the “legal” advice until we know the chain of command. These are the things that we do on these threads that often confuses people. They follow the advice that they get here, write to the wrong person or call on the wrong person and get ignored or told, “I can’t help you.” Then, the person is hurt, because he feels blown off. He doesn’t know that he went to the wrong person. The person hearing his complaint may or may not know the right chain of command. He knows that it’s not his department.
The first place to begin is by asking the priest, but not right after mass or before mass, at another time when he can stop and talk. Those dialogues can be mutually enriching.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I asked, “Is this a Newman Chapel or is it a canonically erected parish?” There is a big difference.
If the rubrics are violated in one or in the other, you do not appeal to the same authority. If the one priest is bullying a person you appeal to his superior. If he’s a Newman chaplain, that superior is not the bishop. The bishop will simply ignore your letter. Bishops have enough to do taking care of their ministries without having to get involved in someone else’s. If the priest is a religious, again the chain of command is different.
I think we need to back off on the “legal” advice until we know the chain of command. These are the things that we do on these threads that often confuses people. They follow the advice that they get here, write to the wrong person or call on the wrong person and get ignored or told, “I can’t help you.” Then, the person is hurt, because he feels blown off. He doesn’t know that he went to the wrong person. The person hearing his complaint may or may not know the right chain of command. He knows that it’s not his department.
The first place to begin is by asking the priest, but not right after mass or before mass, at another time when he can stop and talk. Those dialogues can be mutually enriching.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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TheMc
Guest
Doesn’t the bishop “allow” the religious orders to function in his diocese? Isn’t he responsible for every soul in the diocese? I may be wrong, but I thought that’s how it worked.Everyone is talking about this “parish” and sending letters to the bishop and the pope, etc. But the question has not been answered. Folks, we should never give advice unless we have the information.
I asked, “Is this a Newman Chapel or is it a canonically erected parish?” There is a big difference.
If the rubrics are violated in one or in the other, you do not appeal to the same authority. If the one priest is bullying a person you appeal to his superior. If he’s a Newman chaplain, that superior is not the bishop. The bishop will simply ignore your letter. Bishops have enough to do taking care of their ministries without having to get involved in someone else’s. If the priest is a religious, again the chain of command is different.
I think we need to back off on the “legal” advice until we know the chain of command. These are the things that we do on these threads that often confuses people. They follow the advice that they get here, write to the wrong person or call on the wrong person and get ignored or told, “I can’t help you.” Then, the person is hurt, because he feels blown off. He doesn’t know that he went to the wrong person. The person hearing his complaint may or may not know the right chain of command. He knows that it’s not his department.
The first place to begin is by asking the priest, but not right after mass or before mass, at another time when he can stop and talk. Those dialogues can be mutually enriching.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
Before a religious order enters a diocese the bishop must give his consent. Once he does that, the religious do not answer to him, but to their superior. However, there are religious, such as me, who work for a diocese. We answer to the bishop in matters that pertain to the work that we do for him, not in matters that pertain to the ministry run by our community. Those come under the jurisdiction of the major superior. Bishops do not have the authority to intervene. When there is a concern on the bishop’s part, he contacts the major superior with it. The Council of Trent ruled that lay people and bishops could not intervene in the affairs of religious. This is called the Right of Exemption.
There are also ministries that are not run by the local diocese. They may be run by private Catholic institutions. Again, the bishop gives permission for them to exist in his diocese, but he does not intervene in them. They are not diocesan ministries. One of them is the Newman Ministry. This is a ministry to college students, usually those who attend non-Catholic colleges. Newman Ministry runs itself with its own funds and its own leadership. It is usually invited to a college campus by the administration of the college. The bishop grants them permission to operate in the diocese, but does not have anything to do with them.
Lay people who make use of ministries run by religious orders or by Catholic organizations that are not diocesan, must submit to the authorities of those organizations or those orders. They must use their chain of command to present concerns.
That’s why I keep asking about the use of the name Newman in the original post. Is it a parish named after Bl. John Hentry Newman or is it a Newman chapel? A parish has to follow diocesan policies. A Newman chapel follows whatever agreements are in place between the bishop and the Newman Society. The person to correct a priest who is employed by the Newman Society is one of its own, not the local bishop.
There is one area where local bishops always have authority. That is over the Eucharist and faculties. The Eucharist may never be reserved in any place without the local bishop’s permission, not even in a religious house. No priest, religious or secular may validly hear confessions, celebrate mass, preach or witness marriages without the local bishop’s permission. More often than not, the pastor is authorized to grant such permission in the name of the bishop, because the pastor shares in the bishop’s priesthood.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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johnnykins
Guest
Very good points. Back in pre-history when I was in college, the Newman Society involved a diocesan appointed priest, etc. Never occurred to me that it was anything other than a loose association of diocesan incardinated priests appointed as college chaplains. At least since the early 90’s it is a duly constituted society. So, yes the proper authorities should be consulted.Everyone is talking about this “parish” and sending letters to the bishop and the pope, etc. But the question has not been answered. Folks, we should never give advice unless we have the information.
I asked, “Is this a Newman Chapel or is it a canonically erected parish?” There is a big difference.
If the rubrics are violated in one or in the other, you do not appeal to the same authority. If the one priest is bullying a person you appeal to his superior. If he’s a Newman chaplain, that superior is not the bishop. The bishop will simply ignore your letter. Bishops have enough to do taking care of their ministries without having to get involved in someone else’s. If the priest is a religious, again the chain of command is different.
I think we need to back off on the “legal” advice until we know the chain of command. These are the things that we do on these threads that often confuses people. They follow the advice that they get here, write to the wrong person or call on the wrong person and get ignored or told, “I can’t help you.” Then, the person is hurt, because he feels blown off. He doesn’t know that he went to the wrong person. The person hearing his complaint may or may not know the right chain of command. He knows that it’s not his department.
The first place to begin is by asking the priest, but not right after mass or before mass, at another time when he can stop and talk. Those dialogues can be mutually enriching.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
As to how exactly one deals with the issue, reasonable people can disagree. Years ago, without more information than is on this thread, for something like this I would have said talk to the priest. Too many years of dealing with priests who do things like this now leads me to say send the letters and let those in authority deal with it. I no longer generally give priests the benefit of the doubt.
And that is a terrible shame, bothers me greatly - but experience is a stern taskmaster.
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Corki
Guest
True. As an aside, when I was in college, we had three priests at the Newman Center - a Jesuit, a Dominican and a diocisan (secular) priest. I believe they operated under the diocisan Bishop since when the Bishop came to town, they cautioned everyone to be on their toes and to do things “by the book” but I am sure that the organizational structure was very interesting.
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Migara
Guest
I believe it is wrong for a priest to invite you to leave because you wish to kneel at what is the holiest part of the mass. Follow your conscience not your people preference. Didn’t the angel of FATIMA kneel while the chalice was above him and didn’t he then prostrate himself under the chalice in adoration and humility.
Didn’t Jesus pray to the Father on his knees at Gethsamane? Why didn’t he stand to pray? Kneeling is a sign of adoration and humility.
And PS-----always take communion on the tongue. Never take the slightest chance that any particle so small you can’t see it may fall to the floor. That would be the ultimate insult.
Didn’t Jesus pray to the Father on his knees at Gethsamane? Why didn’t he stand to pray? Kneeling is a sign of adoration and humility.
And PS-----always take communion on the tongue. Never take the slightest chance that any particle so small you can’t see it may fall to the floor. That would be the ultimate insult.
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