Priest asked me to change or leave

[Godfollower]

But he is participating in the common posture - the one that is “according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.” It is the priest who is dissenting from the GIRM and from the Church. And yes, the priest is creating an occassion of sin for the whole community, especially if he freely offers the opinion that he doesn’t have to follow the GIRM.

No, if the poster was doing something wrong, like standing for the Consecration, the priest has the authority to correct him. But this isn’t the case here. And the priest does not have the authority to ask anyone to leave a public Mass.

Not only that, depending on how the parish is set up (as Brother JR noted), if the Newman Center is the geographical parish for the campus, the priest is obligated to the poster as a parishioner.

Help me out here. The GIRM says as follows:

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal ¶ 43.

Clearly, there are some circumstances under which the priest is allowed to say “No kneeling here.” So, if the priest says “No kneeling here,” and a member of the congregation thinks that the priest is wrong, who has the authority to decide whether the priest is correct: the priest or the parishioner?

We haven’t been given any facts in this area, so we don’t know whether the priest’s no-kneeling decision is based on “reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause.” So, since we don’t know whether it’s because of space or crowds, that still leaves “another reasonable cause” as a ground for his no-kneeling decision. So somebody has to decide whether the cause for the priest’s decision (whatever it is) is a reasonable one.*

It’s a question of authority, yes? Isn’t the priest the one who has that authority?

If not, it seems to me that priests who attempt to exercise their authority to dispense with rules (as they are clearly permitted to do) are doomed to an endless succession of letters to their bishops contending that they’re exercising that authority incorrectly.

And that means that bishops (or superiors general or what have you, depending on the applicable chain of command for that particular church, as Br. JR has pointed out) are doomed to an even more endless line of letters complaining along the lines of “Fr. Smith says no kneeling because of _______, but I don’t think that’s a ‘reasonable cause’ under GIRM ¶ 43. You need to launch an investigation immediately, or I’m writing to Rome.”

---

• Whatever one thinks of the priest’s statement that he isn’t bound by the GIRM unless it’s in canon law – which is beyond weird, given that canon law itself says that the liturgical laws like the GIRM are binding – doesn’t really matter; what matters is whether he has decreed “no kneeling” based on some “reasonable cause.”

 

[JReducation]

Where has the good morals gone?

Let us pray!

Let’s be careful here. This is not a moral question as it is not applicable to every Catholic. This is a question of discipline applicable only to a target population.

Morals are universal, rubrics are not. I’ll give you a simple example. Standing during the Eucharistic prayer is the norm for Catholic monks. As you know, most monks are not priests or deacons. However, the abbot is the final authority of how you stand, kneel, sit, sing and speak. I know of a Benedictine abbey where the abbot banned Latin. They use Gregorian chant in English. Rome upheld it, because St. Benedict ruled the abbot is the voice of Christ. If this were a matter of morals, no abbot, no Patriarch and no sui iuris Church would be allowed to do anything different in liturgy. Most rules concerning liturgy fall under discipline and/or theology.

The issue boils down to compliance, not morals. Morality would enter the picture if we want to speak about obedience to legitimate authority. The moral issue would be obedience, not the standing or kneeling.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jmcrae]

The parish seems sufficiently out of sync with Rome that I would find another parish without being asked.

I agree. Why should you inflict that sort of thing on yourself, when alternatives exist?

 

[JReducation]

I find myself in battle with spiritual pride especially being a member at a traditional Latin Mass parish and then going to other parishes for Mass during the week. My pride wants to alter the customs of the other parishes to conform with the what we have at the Traditional Latin Mass, but then again this isn’t even my parish!

Your situation is different because it is your parish! So where would you go?

This is very important. All of us must pay attention to our attitudes. For example, those of us who were formed in religious orders have a very different approach to liturgy. It’s not what you find in either a mainstream parish or a traditional parish. It’s our form of liturgy, our history, and our rules. Those little details that are different, may go unnoticed by the average Catholic or may be meaningless to those who notice them, but they have great meaning to us, because they ground us in our identity as Benedictines, Carmelites, Franciscans, Jesuits, Salesians, etc.

It is very tempting to want to make everyone else be what we are or do what we do. Last summer, I attended a funeral at an SSPX chapel and I had to fight my frustration, because I could not hear. The problem is that the Franciscan form of the EF calls for interaction between the priest and the congreation. They’re the same prayers, but the server is not the voice of the people. The people are their own voice. The friar will vocalize the entire mass and the congregation responds. I had to keep reminding myself that our reason for doing this was to avoid singularizing the priest from the other friars in the congregation and to drive home to the priest that he’s only a brother serving his brothers through the priesthood. He is not their father. Only Francis is Father and he was never a priest.

As human beings we do get frustrated and there is a tendency to want to change everything and everyone else. We have to fight that temptation. I agree with you and understand.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

The parish seems sufficiently out of sync with Rome that I would find another parish without being asked.

How do we know that this parish is out of sync? We have not even established if it’s a parish.

We need to avoid what I call “The CAF Temptation”, to take what someone posts about a parish, priest, bishop or religious order and accept it as pure fact and make a judgment call. People often post according to their perspective. All too often, people post and later go back to their posts and say, “It’s not that bad.” Unfortunately, “What is written is written.”

I would offer the words of St. Clare of Assisi to her sisters and to St. Francis. “Never judge what you have not seen unless you have three reputable informants.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PennyinCanada]

My hubby and I have moved parishes over the years, and we put it in the frame of mind that we are pilgrims on this earth. We have met a number of awesome people that we wouldn’t have. It is hard to leave and begin again. Blessing to you.

 

[jancvlr]

I am going to a Newman Church and at this Church they do not kneel during consecration. I tried standing but I felt as though I was disrespecting the Eucharist, I felt very guilty. The Priest last weekend approached me and told me that when we spoke he told me I was guilty due to an ill informed conscience. When we were concluding our conversation he told me, “If you chose to kneel there are plenty of other parishes in the area where you are welcome, but you are not welcome here.” After this conversation I researched the issue and made the decision that I indeed have an informed conscience, I don’t think that I should ignore my conscience. My question is do you think I should abandon my conscience or simply switch parishes? Let me also say that I love the people at the Newman center, but want to make the right decision.

I am disabled and for the most part I sit and I have never been approached. I have always believed God would acknowledge my efforts and my presence and that whether I kneeled sat or stood would not matter in the eyes of God.
Go with your heart.

 

[Carolus_Martell]

The parish seems sufficiently out of sync with Rome that I would find another parish without being asked.

Ditto!

 

[Corki]

Above yours are the two posts by the OP.

The OP has five posts. They are all on this topic. Some were moved to another thread. I copied his first post on this topic.

 

[JM3]

The individual has to renounce his own ideas and his own way. He is obliged to subscribe to the ideas and to follow the lead of the liturgy. To it he must surrender his independence; pray with others, and not alone; obey, instead of freely disposing of himself; and stand in the ranks, instead of moving about at his own will and pleasure. It is, furthermore, the task of the individual to apprehend clearly the ideal world of the liturgy. He must shake off the narrow trammels of his own thought, and make his own a far more comprehensive world of ideas: he must go beyond his little personal aims and adopt the educative purpose of the great fellowship of the liturgy. It goes without saying, therefore, that he is obliged to take part in exercises which do not respond to the particular needs of which he is conscious; that he must ask for things which do not directly concern him; espouse and plead before God causes which do not affect him personally, and which merely arise out of the needs of the community at large; he must at times–and this is inevitable in so richly developed a system of symbols, prayer and action–take part in proceedings of which he does not entirely, if at all, understand the significance.

All this is particularly difficult for modern people, who find it so hard to renounce their independence. And yet people who are perfectly ready to play a subordinate part in state and commercial affairs are all the more susceptible and the more passionately reluctant to regulate their spiritual life by dictates other than those of their private and personal requirements. The requirements of the liturgy can be summed up in one word, humility. Humility by renunciation; that is to say, by the abdication of self-rule and self-sufficiency. And humility by positive action; that is to say, by the acceptance of the spiritual principles which the liturgy offers and which far transcend the little world of individual spiritual existence.

Fr. Romano Guardini - The Spirit of the Liturgy, Chapter 2

 

[ConstantineTG]

Oftentimes we are more concerned about being right rather than being righteous.

 

[Padraig1972]

What i will do is this:

1. Pray for that the OP and the priest comes to terms and that things works out well.
2. That we pray for enlightenment, passion, compasion and understanding.

Over the months i have learned that certain matters one should ask-seek the priest for to get resolved in a best possible manner.

Brother J.R seems to be wise and wish us well with his advices, why not listen to what he writes? What matters to us, to be good witnesses or in need of always have the last say in a debate? Please: be honest and ask yourself that.

 

[baker22]

Without having read all the responses …

I think what most people are ignoring is that this guy is going to a Newman Church. I imagine he means a Newman Center church/chapel at a university. Assuming that to be the case, there’s a good chance he doesn’t have a car or method to go to a nearby parish, if there even is one. I’m not sure the proper recourse, because it’s never “good” to disobey a priest, but isn’t it worse to go against the catholic teaching previously stated? If he can’t go to another church, shouldn’t he continue to kneel?

 

[kotim]

He should continue to kneel, unless their is a real (not just perceived)genuine risk of injury by causing others to topple over. The priest has NO RIGHT to dictate to him to kneel or stand in this issue. The kneeling is certianly more reverential in its public display so being more reverential should not be a problem.

 

[sedonaman]

Ah, brother! Another “stand-they-all-the-time” church. One church I’ve been to in California is that way [unless they’ve changed back] – no kneelers, not even any pews! Really bizarro to say the least.

If the priest told you that you were not welcome, I would beat feet fast because that church is not Catholic since everyone is welcome in a Catholic Church.

 

[Flluffycat]

If it were me, I would loop the Bishop in on the goings-on at the Newman Center.

Good answer!!!

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

I am going to a Newman Church and at this Church they do not kneel during consecration. I tried standing but I felt as though I was disrespecting the Eucharist, I felt very guilty. The Priest last weekend approached me and told me that when we spoke he told me I was guilty due to an ill informed conscience. When we were concluding our conversation he told me, “If you chose to kneel there are plenty of other parishes in the area where you are welcome, but you are not welcome here.” After this conversation I researched the issue and made the decision that I indeed have an informed conscience, I don’t think that I should ignore my conscience. My question is do you think I should abandon my conscience or simply switch parishes? Let me also say that I love the people at the Newman center, but want to make the right decision./QUOTE

Your priest sounds like a class 1 door-knob.

 

[Akini]

I suggest that before the guy goes to another parish where kneeling is allowed, he should seek advise from the local bishop. If the the local bishop advises him not to kneel then he must look for another parish. If he is allowed to kneel, then he should continue to attend that particular church. I think the local priest is following the bishop’s instructions.

While we are on this, I’d like to say that the Catholic Church has lost some of its gloss and it will continue to slide if such priests continue to do that.

Can somebody please help us. I am really afraid that the Catholic Church may become like some of the many protestant churches. I hope I am not too pessimistic.

 

[jameswa40]

I believe that it is the practice of the universal church to stand at the consecration. However it is the approved practice of the US church to kneel at the consecration and that is what the Newman parish should be doing not harassing you. However I agree that it would be best to just go to a different parish.

 

[JReducation]

If it were me, I would loop the Bishop in on the goings-on at the Newman Center.

The chancery would only point you back to the leadership of the Newman Society. You may as well begin there. Bishops and Major Superiors of Religious appoint priests, brothers and sisters to Newman Centers, they don’t run them. Why do people not get this?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF