Priest explains why yoga and new age are dangerous

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Generally, even Raja Yoga and many others kinds of spiritual Yoga are atheistic (though not materialistic) in their roots because Patanjali in many ways continued atheistic teaching of Samkhia. The latter was connected with separation Purusa (soul, and in many ways individual soul) from body and liquidation of physical or spiritual sufferings. The strong atheistic character of Yoga are affirmed some Indian authors as well as that Patanjali’s God Isvara is not an object of worship. It is unlikely to make Yoga always similar to mysticism as it is done by many Catholic theologians. Many eastern philosophical and spiritual psycothechniques’ concepts doesn’t have their equivalents in western phylosophical and Theological systems. So, even Raja Yoga may be used only for lessenig or liquidation souls’ dependence on the body but not to the mystical Christian practices. The Catholic morality of latter issue is the matter of longer disputes and discussions. Raja yoga still stresses more on onthological (not moral or religious as in the case of Catholic mysticism) developpment of soul (super thinking, super power of will etc.). It makes it something similar to Stoic natural asceticism with its need to gain apatheia and to liquidate the physical pain sensitivity). In many ways the Yoga as philosophical system and psycophysical exercises’ structure may be very pluralistic and without any unchangeable characteristics.
I appreciate your familiarity with Samkhya, lizing. Not many people in the West know of it and its influece on Patanjali. I agree with almost everything you said, but not sure what you mean by “unchangeable characteristics” since as you allude, Patanjali himself shifted the atheistic Samkhya by adding Ishvara who acts as a benefactor. I found it interesting that you used the term “liquidation” of dependence and physical pains sensitivity. Then I went to Mass and heard:
Since everything is to be dissolved in this way,
what sort of persons ought you to be,
conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion,
waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God,
because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames
and the elements melted by fire.

Symbolic language for the same process?

Let me ask another question, lizing, With your knowledge of Samkhya, Yoga and Christianity, how would you express our faith to an Indian in Samkhya/yoga terms? That is , words and concepts a Hindu, yogi, or Samkhyist uses.
 
Symbolic language for the same process?

I doubt that as the poster observed that Catholic mysticism is NOT the same as yoga and in his post he mentions it several times.It is an atheistic system or meditation whereas Christians always focus on Jesus

There are numerous verses in the bible and prophecy that speak of a destruction of this system and a new heaven and new earth,St Faustinas writing state that before Jesus returns in glory all lights in the heavens will be extinguished(three days of darkness?) and we will see the sign of the Son of man in the sky.A great cross with light pouring from where He was nailed to the cross.
 
Thank you for the questions. 1.) About “unchangeable characteristics”. I intentionally will emphasize the word “may” in my previous post to underline the possibility instead of full reality. Some contemporary Indian authors may stress that changes in the meaning of Patanjali’s Yoga rules, stages and exercises will deprive the system of its essence. Therefore, this modified Yoga will not be Yoga at all. Especially it is concerned with Yama and Niyama principles. We even may find threats which are concerned with any specific diseases or bad supernatural outcomes of karma because improper doing of Yoga exercises but it is less frequent phenomenon. Still, many Indian authors say about of some development, evolution and revision of classical or Vedic Yoga. It is concerned with phenomena like practicing both Raja or Hatha Yoga sparately from each other and understanding Yama and Niyama principles as results (not as necessarily preconditions) for making Ashtanga Yoga etc. So, even Indian or Hindu intellectuals say either about dogmatism or relativism in Yoga. 2) About different meaning of eastern or western philosophical (theological) concepts. It would be more correctly for me to say that some Catholic theologians may something exessively say about using the concept of Brahman in Yoga and underline pantheistic (panentheistic) and mystical character of the system. The system is seen therefore only as achieving the union between its practitioner and indefinite divine power. In my opinion it is the result of Vedantic or Neo-Vedantic Scools influence. But there were the examples of misconceptions in investigations western philosophers concerning nature Taoism on the matter is it pantheism or another onthological system and how to definite the Brahman. We may stress separate aspects of “karma” as retribution or attachment to delusive world. Some Hindu authors also need exacter and more detailed clarification of the proper meaning of the Truths of The Catholic faith. In my opinion this activity often should be compounded with usage of empirical examples.
 
Mysticism is mysticism. Different religions have different beliefs about it.

It’s like we don’t have Catholic body chemistry and a different Buddhist body chemistry, unless one is maybe much more uptight than the other. 😃

The sun and moon do nothing different as our understanding of it goes from fantasy to measured patterns to elegant and satisfying models.

The same with mystical truth. You have different vocabularies and different beliefs, but we are all trying to explain the same phenomenon. There is one Spirit, regardless of what name you attach to Him, or beliefs you have about His/its nature.
 
Thank you for the questions. 1.) About “unchangeable characteristics”. I intentionally will emphasize the word “may” in my previous post to underline the possibility instead of full reality. Some contemporary Indian authors may stress that changes in the meaning of Patanjali’s Yoga rules, stages and exercises will deprive the system of its essence. Therefore, this modified Yoga will not be Yoga at all. Especially it is concerned with Yama and Niyama principles.
We even may find threats which are concerned with any specific diseases or bad supernatural outcomes of karma because improper doing of Yoga exercises but it is less frequent phenomenon. Still, many Indian authors say about of some development, evolution and revision of classical or Vedic Yoga. It is concerned with phenomena like practicing both Raja or Hatha Yoga sparately from each other and understanding Yama and Niyama principles as results (not as necessarily preconditions) for making Ashtanga Yoga etc. So, even Indian or Hindu intellectuals say either about dogmatism or relativism in Yoga. 2) About different meaning of eastern or western philosophical (theological) concepts. It would be more correctly for me to say that some Catholic theologians may something exessively say about using the concept of Brahman in Yoga and underline pantheistic (panentheistic) and mystical character of the system. The system is seen therefore only as achieving the union between its practitioner and indefinite divine power. In my opinion it is the result of Vedantic or Neo-Vedantic Scools influence. But there were the examples of misconceptions in investigations western philosophers concerning nature Taoism on the matter is it pantheism or another onthological system and how to definite the Brahman. We may stress separate aspects of “karma” as retribution or attachment to delusive world. Some Hindu authors also need exacter and more detailed clarification of the proper meaning of the Truths of The Catholic faith. In my opinion this activity often should be compounded with usage of empirical examples.
Care to drop a name or two of contemporary Indian authors? The funny thing though is that Patanjali’s Yoga says nothing about Brahman. It is dualistic with Purusha/Prakrit both eternal. While Hinduism is more Brahman focused and yet uses yoga technique. Is that what you mean by Vedic and Neo Vedic influences?

I agree with Mystical Seeker, “You have different vocabularies and different beliefs, but we are all trying to explain the same phenomenon.” And maybe that is why these thread on nonchristian religion get so long. We do not all have that underlying belief that all people of sincere heart are seeking the same truth from very different starting points.
 
Mysticism is mysticism. Different religions have different beliefs about it.

It’s like we don’t have Catholic body chemistry and a different Buddhist body chemistry, unless one is maybe much more uptight than the other. 😃

The sun and moon do nothing different as our understanding of it goes from fantasy to measured patterns to elegant and satisfying models.

The same with mystical truth. You have different vocabularies and different beliefs, but we are all trying to explain the same phenomenon. There is one Spirit, regardless of what name you attach to Him, or beliefs you have about His/its nature.
Mystical. euphoric experiences can be caused by many things often times brain chemicals and drugs may induce them. That is not what Catholic mystic experience. Most today who experience any unusual supposed eye opening phenomena attribute it to God or some “mystical force” Always remember that when one denies Jesus they deny His Father.
 
Care to drop a name or two of contemporary Indian authors? The funny thing though is that Patanjali’s Yoga says nothing about Brahman. It is dualistic with Purusha/Prakrit both eternal. While Hinduism is more Brahman focused and yet uses yoga technique. Is that what you mean by Vedic and Neo Vedic influences?

I agree with Mystical Seeker, “You have different vocabularies and different beliefs, but we are all trying to explain the same phenomenon.” And maybe that is why these thread on nonchristian religion get so long. We do not all have that underlying belief that all people of sincere heart are seeking the same truth from very different starting points.
Michael.the majority of people are not seeking mystical experiences.To seek such a thing is very dangerous spiritually. As one grows in obedience and humility God reveals His truths. It does not take any particular physical exercise or breathing technique but a humble contrite heart.
 
Oh well I’m sorry I might have a different shade of feelings when I think this compared to when I think that. And God’s going to be mad at me or I will become possessed with evil.

I’d rather listen to Dalai Lama speak any day, compare to any number of priests telling me how dangerous it is to sit and stretch my legs in a certain configuration.

People need to quit running scared of their own thoughts.
 
Oh well I’m sorry I might have a different shade of feelings when I think this compared to when I think that. And God’s going to be mad at me or I will become possessed with evil.

I’d rather listen to Dalai Lama speak any day, compare to any number of priests telling me how dangerous it is to sit and stretch my legs in a certain configuration.

People need to quit running scared of their own thoughts.
There is a big difference between being irrationally scared and being cautious. Caution is part of the interior voice of the conscience. Now it does seem as if you and Mike admit that you do adhere to the spiritual aspect as well as physical practice of yoga. It appears your ultimate goal is to be linked to some indefinable “force” that causes an experience of light and bliss as well as a type of gnosis. Some of this is so eerily similar to what some of the early church fathers warned about concerning gnosticism.
 
Oh well I’m sorry I might have a different shade of feelings when I think this compared to when I think that. And God’s going to be mad at me or I will become possessed with evil.

I’d rather listen to Dalai Lama speak any day, compare to any number of priests telling me how dangerous it is to sit and stretch my legs in a certain configuration.

People need to quit running scared of their own thoughts.
I replied to this question indirectly when I said that belief in a Creator could be associated with the understanding of emptiness. I believe it is possible to progress along a spiritual path and reconcile Christianity with Buddhism. But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a CHOICE between the two paths will become necessary. -Dalai Lama
 
There is a big difference between being irrationally scared and being cautious. Caution is part of the interior voice of the conscience. Now it does seem as if you and Mike admit that you do adhere to the spiritual aspect as well as physical practice of yoga. It appears your ultimate goal is to be linked to some indefinable “force” that causes an experience of light and bliss as well as a type of gnosis. Some of this is so eerily similar to what some of the early church fathers warned about concerning Gnosticism.
I never said anything like that.

I am all for stretches and slow deep breathing and inner silence. But not “to be linked to some indefinable force that causes an experience of light and bliss as well as a type of gnosis”. That looks like something you cut 'n pasted form some website.

I am for any natural method of relaxing and releasing tension whether one calls it “yoga” or common sense exercise. I have studied the philosophy of classical yoga as well as Hinduism, Advaita vedanta, Samkhya, and Buddhism. It is important to know what ones is talking about and to know distinctions. That does not mean I buy into it much less “adhere to the spiritual aspect”. I am not even sure what that means when it comes to Hatha Yoga since classical yoga of Patanjali involves dualism while the yoga of Hinduism does not.
 
I never said anything like that.

I am all for stretches and slow deep breathing and inner silence. But not “to be linked to some indefinable force that causes an experience of light and bliss as well as a type of gnosis”. That looks like something you cut 'n pasted form some website.

I am for any natural method of relaxing and releasing tension whether one calls it “yoga” or common sense exercise. I have studied the philosophy of classical yoga as well as Hinduism, Advaita vedanta, Samkhya, and Buddhism. It is important to know what ones is talking about and to know distinctions. That does not mean I buy into it much less “adhere to the spiritual aspect”. I am not even sure what that means when it comes to Hatha Yoga since classical yoga of Patanjali involves dualism while the yoga of Hinduism does not.
Sorry,that must have been another poster referencing Gopi Krishna and the presumption that all mystical experiences are based on the same indefinable force. I assumed that the poster agreed with it. In my previous post the quote from the Dalai Lama expounds on what I have been claiming: Once you reach a certain “level” of understanding a choice must be made because they are not compatible. I do sincerely believe that if Thomas merton had not accidentally electrocuted himself he would have become Buddhist.
 
I replied to this question indirectly when I said that belief in a Creator could be associated with the understanding of emptiness. I believe it is possible to progress along a spiritual path and reconcile Christianity with Buddhism. But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a CHOICE between the two paths will become necessary. -Dalai Lama
Sure. But they are both concerned with destruction of the “false self” as some call it. So the essence is to divest oneself of false structures of beliefs that create a false sense of security and self-control, or a false sense of paranoia about the lack of them.

In Christianity it is about denying the self. About selling all you own – including all the worldly mindsets and attachments like the rich man who walked away sadly because he had much. Like the man who built up his stores and for nothing. Contemplative prayer is a surrendering of the thought stream that takes over for reality, and second-guesses every nuanced movement of the Spirit if left untreated. I must hate my life. How can I do that and love that of me that is made in the image of God? Maybe that means that I must hate the part of me that my mind has created as an image, a mask, a persona. per-sona sound through the mask

In Buddhism I don’t know what but I’ve listened to enough Alan Watts to know that it’s at least on the same page as contemplative prayer and the Cloud of the Unknowing – and more generally the apophatic tradition of the Church. There is a lot of comparability from the psychological approach as to what problem that is common to all of human beings is concerned, but it differs in the details and in the implicit schemata involving the unknowable.
 
Sure. But they are both concerned with destruction of the “false self” as some call it. So the essence is to divest oneself of false structures of beliefs that create a false sense of security and self-control, or a false sense of paranoia about the lack of them.

In Christianity it is about denying the self. About selling all you own – including all the worldly mindsets and attachments like the rich man who walked away sadly because he had much. Like the man who built up his stores and for nothing. Contemplative prayer is a surrendering of the thought stream that takes over for reality, and second-guesses every nuanced movement of the Spirit if left untreated. I must hate my life. How can I do that and love that of me that is made in the image of God? Maybe that means that I must hate the part of me that my mind has created as an image, a mask, a persona. per-sona sound through the mask

In Buddhism I don’t know what but I’ve listened to enough Alan Watts to know that it’s at least on the same page as contemplative prayer and the Cloud of the Unknowing – and more generally the apophatic tradition of the Church. There is a lot of comparability from the psychological approach as to what problem that is common to all of human beings is concerned, but it differs in the details and in the implicit schemata involving the unknowable.
Contemplative prayer is a fixed gaze at Jesus Christ your redeemer ,not some inner “christ self” or higher self but Jesus of Nazareth who came to die for YOUR sins.When you are no longer focused on Jesus it is not Christian prayer. Meditate on His passion and love for you and the fact that He died for you. Jesus Christ is not some inner force or risen kundalini but the second person of the Blessed Trinity.
 
Contemplative prayer is a fixed gaze at Jesus Christ your redeemer ,not some inner “christ self” or higher self but Jesus of Nazareth who came to die for YOUR sins.When you are no longer focused on Jesus it is not Christian prayer. Meditate on His passion and love for you and the fact that He died for you. Jesus Christ is not some inner force or risen kundalini but the second person of the Blessed Trinity.
We were made in the image of God. Jesus says the spirit will rise up from within us.

Why do we spend so much time looking for a God somewhere outside ourselves, racking our brains to place ourselves in alignment with Him, when He is within our hearts all the time? We just have to get our bushel baskets out of the way and let our light shine – and for that matter let His light come into our hearts and minds and renew and clarify us as light.
 
We were made in the image of God. Jesus says the spirit will rise up from within us.

Why do we spend so much time looking for a God somewhere outside ourselves, racking our brains to place ourselves in alignment with Him, when He is within our hearts all the time? We just have to get our bushel baskets out of the way and let our light shine – and for that matter let His light come into our hearts and minds and renew and clarify us as light.
I am trying to understand what you are saying yet it appears you are equating kundalini with the Holy Spirit. I cannot grasp this,since a kundalini awakening can be activated by ritual sodomy as well as trance and drug experiences. The Holy Spirit is not some random force but the third PERSOn of the Blessed Trinity. Even the Dalai Lama admits that the two paths are NOT the same.

Most people are not looking for a mystical experience but to conform themselves to the will of God by acts of loving kindness as well as obedience to authority.The devil has no power over those who are obedient.
 
I am trying to understand what you are saying yet it appears you are equating kundalini with the Holy Spirit. I cannot grasp this,since a kundalini awakening can be activated by ritual sodomy as well as trance and drug experiences. The Holy Spirit is not some random force but the third PERSOn of the Blessed Trinity. Even the Dalai Lama admits that the two paths are NOT the same.

Most people are not looking for a mystical experience but to conform themselves to the will of God by acts of loving kindness as well as obedience to authority.The devil has no power over those who are obedient.
kundalini is a non-Catholic attempt at explaining what happens to human beings who were made in the image of God. Since they don’t acknowledge the Holy Spirit, their experiences require a different explanation.

What I’ve found is that the more I learn about non-Christian religions and especially non-western ones, there is more in common at their very core in terms of what does this mean about how a human body interacts with forces we cannot see and measure in a lab, than I ever knew before I ever heard of the apophatic tradition of the Church.

As far as being made in the image of God, we say that but then we effectively deny it, in the way we (many Catholics IMO) go about self-loathing in lieu of humility and look for God everywhere but within.

Notice, for example, 1 Cor 6:18-20
18 Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body.[h] 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple* of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.

So we are temples of God, the Holy Spirit being within us, so we should avoid sin because we are sinning against God. So yes when we do wrong we are reminded that God is inside us and we’re really giving Him fits.

But then when we do something loving, we don’t see that we are also temples of the Holy Spirit when we do good stuff, too. Basically we are “channelers” for God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We offer our bodies and minds to “channel” His love into loving acts, and each time no less an “Incarnation” than the Eucharist itself. Which should not be any big deal to those who recognize that the transubstantiation that is of most importance is not that bread becomes God, but that we consume that bread and we become one with God. I used the term “channel” to mean His tools, His arms and legs on this earth. His little Christ-children, adopted siblings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who made all the others.

If I may be so bold as to go one step further, we are all “gods” if we have received the Word. Jesus tried to explain this and almost got killed for it. No wonder the pharisees of this day cannot stand it when we compare ourselves to God in any other way as to call light to how miserable and terrible we are by comparison. He made us to BE gods; not to run around feeling lousy because we aren’t.

John 10:30-36
30 [n]The Father and I are one.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 [o]Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated[p] and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

So my question is, why do we deny our own divinity? If you think other religions are spooky and weird, they are nothing compared to the richness of what we have right here. And it isn’t always because they are completely off-base; sometimes they are looking at the same thing and applying different words – and making different assumptions.*
 
kundalini is a non-Catholic attempt at explaining what happens to human beings who were made in the image of God. Since they don’t acknowledge the Holy Spirit, their experiences require a different explanation.

What I’ve found is that the more I learn about non-Christian religions and especially non-western ones, there is more in common at their very core in terms of what does this mean about how a human body interacts with forces we cannot see and measure in a lab, than I ever knew before I ever heard of the apophatic tradition of the Church.

As far as being made in the image of God, we say that but then we effectively deny it, in the way we (many Catholics IMO) go about self-loathing in lieu of humility and look for God everywhere but within.

Notice, for example, 1 Cor 6:18-20
18 Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body.[h] 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple* of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.

So we are temples of God, the Holy Spirit being within us*, so we should avoid sin because we are sinning against God. So yes when we do wrong we are reminded that God is inside us and we’re really giving Him fits.

But then when we do something loving, we don’t see that we are also temples of the Holy Spirit when we do good stuff, too. Basically we are “channelers” for God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We offer our bodies and minds to “channel” His love into loving acts, and each time no less an “Incarnation” than the Eucharist itself. Which should not be any big deal to those who recognize that the transubstantiation that is of most importance is not that bread becomes God, but that we consume that bread and we become one with God. I used the term “channel” to mean His tools, His arms and legs on this earth. His little Christ-children, adopted siblings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who made all the others.

If I may be so bold as to go one step further, we are all “gods” if we have received the Word. Jesus tried to explain this and almost got killed for it. No wonder the pharisees of this day cannot stand it when we compare ourselves to God in any other way as to call light to how miserable and terrible we are by comparison. He made us to BE gods; not to run around feeling lousy because we aren’t.

John 10:30-36
30 [n]The Father and I are one.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 [o]Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated[p] and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

So my question is, why do we deny our own divinity? If you think other religions are spooky and weird, they are nothing compared to the richness of what we have right here. And it isn’t always because they are completely off-base; sometimes they are looking at the same thing and applying different words – and making different assumptions.

Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.

[21] Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth. [22] Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. [23] He having heard these things, became sorrowful; for he was very rich. [24] And Jesus seeing him become sorrowful, said: How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God. [25] For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

There is nothing in Jesus statement that says anyone has to have a mystical experience or practice yoga or kundalini. Being kind and compassionate and caring for the poor and sick is what we strive to do. Most all religions do that but it is not necessary to have a mystical experience to be a good person.

When a Catholic receives the sacrament of Baptism he or she receives the Holy Spirit. The Spirit does not “rise from within”. When we receive Confirmation we are then sealed and receive the gifts to witness for Jesus Christ,We become soldiers for Him.

You seem to have a faulty understanding of the Eucharist as it has always been taught that transubstantiation causes the bread to become the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.It is by the hands of the priest and power and working of the Holy Spirit that this occurs.There are many Eucharistic miracles that attest to this fact.

You can keep your new age syncretism because I believe Jesus died for me and opened the gates of heaven . I have nothing against other religions who genuinely seek God with love and humility. Most Muslims Christians and Jews are nice people. I also think most Buddhist are too even though they do not believe in God. Hindus believe in many gods and worship them n different ways but I am certain Jesus loves them too as He created everything and everyone.
 
Does electricity have anything to do with generosity? The first is a form of natural energy. The second is a moral virtue.

Is it ok to manipulate, to harness this natural energy? Sure. but we can also abuse it.

And yet electrical energy at a subtle level is actualy what makes the brain function and has a role in virtue after all. God created us in such an awesome way that we do not even understand it all. Yoga starts with the natural realm, the body but it also includes the moral with its yamas and niyamas. It is a pre Christian attempt to bring the entire human organism into a state of harmony.

Kundalini, if it exists, is a natural energy, a psycho-physiological sort of thing. What we would need to evaluate it is someone who claims to have it arisen within them, and then examine their moral life. Same goes for the Chinese Qi or Chi.

It is far too easy to demonize what we do not understand.

I remember a scene from The Name of the Rose. William of Baskerville (Sean Connery) takes out a lense to better read a manuscript. This is something very new for that time in history. One of the monks sees this and says, “The work of the devil!”
 
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