Priest facing away from the congregation.

[Brendan]

I feel that looking at the back of the priest during this important time of the mass excludes us.

Huh? He is facing the same direction as you are, you are all facing God together, with the priest leading you.

How is that excluding?

 

[ProVobis]

I’m used to the ad orientum position but I am surprised that it has so much support these days.

That said, I haven’t seen it used in the OF. Isn’t it sort of strange to have the priest talking in vernacular with his back to you? Just asking.

 

[Brendan]

I’m used to the ad orientum position but I am surprised that it has so much support these days.

That said, I haven’t seen it used in the OF. Isn’t it sort of strange to have the priest talking in vernacular with his back to you? Just asking.

It was done at our parish at our Latin Mass up until the Moto Proprio came out. Then the Latin OF Mass was trasitioned to the EF Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m used to the ad orientum position but I am surprised that it has so much support these days.

That said, I haven’t seen it used in the OF. Isn’t it sort of strange to have the priest talking in vernacular with his back to you? Just asking.

No. The priest is directing most of his actions towards God. That is the proper orientation. Granted, he faces us when he addresses us “The Lord be with you”, the proclamation of the Gospel, the homily and the dialogue parts of the Mass; however, the prayers directed to the Triune God should be made facing Liturgical East.

The Mass is not about us nor the personality of the priest. It is about offering the Triune God the worship that His Divine Majesty demands.

 

[CarrieH]

As a former high school band member, I see the priest as our drum major. Some times the drum major faces forward (ad orientum). Sometimes he faces the band (ad populum). But it must be remembered that in both situations, the drum major is leading. In either situation, the drum major isn’t there for the entertainment of the band. He’s there to lead us in the direction and to keep us in rhythm.

I like that one! I was a band geek, too, and so was my priest. I’ll have to share this with him – I’ll bet he will use it!

 

[peary1]

Our priest has begun facing away from the congregation during the consecrecration. He has written a letter to us in our bulletin explaining reasoning for the change. He said that it makes the prayer a verticle prayer instead of a closed circle which results from facing us. Could someone help me to understand why this is better. I feel that looking at the back of the priest during this important time of the mass excludes us.

Is he facing the Tabernacle? Is the Tabernacle in the Center of the altar area? In the EF of the Latin rite (Tridentine), the Tabernacle was always situated whereby, if you were observing the celebration of the Mass, the people faced the priest, who faced the altar and Tabernacle. Now, if the Tabernacle is in another place in the church, and the priest is only facing his back to the congregation, he is wrong, unfortunately. And, in the EF, the entire Mass is celebrated with the priest’s back facing the people. Inititally, it wasn’t an exclusion; it was the entire congregation offering up the Sacrifice of the Mass as a body together with the priest facing the East and Tabernacle.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

As a former high school band member, I see the priest as our drum major. Some times the drum major faces forward (ad orientum). Sometimes he faces the band (ad populum). But it must be remembered that in both situations, the drum major is leading. In either situation, the drum major isn’t there for the entertainment of the band. He’s there to lead us in the direction and to keep us in rhythm.

As long as you’re thinking of parades and not field shows, I can agree with this analogy.

 

[malphono]

Is he facing the Tabernacle? Is the Tabernacle in the Center of the altar area? In the EF of the Latin rite (Tridentine), the Tabernacle was always situated whereby, if you were observing the celebration of the Mass, the people faced the priest, who faced the altar and Tabernacle. Now, if the Tabernacle is in another place in the church, and the priest is only facing his back to the congregation, he is wrong, unfortunately. ]And, in the EF, the entire Mass is celebrated with the priest’s back facing the people. Inititally, it wasn’t an exclusion; it was the entire congregation offering up the Sacrifice of the Mass as a body together with the priest facing the East and Tabernacle.

Facing the tabernacle has nothing to do with it. Let’s look at a few examples. For one, there are many cathedrals and basilicas where the tabernacle has traditionally been kept in a separate chapel. For another, there is the case of a small chapel where the Sacrament is not reserved. Or for another, Mass in the field in time of war. Or again, in a niche (or side or apsidial) altar in a larger church. The ad orientem posture is equally correct there too. The ad orientem posture never was, is, or will be an exclusion, whether in the Roman Rite EF, the Roman Rite OF or, for that matter, the liturgy according to any other Rite of the Church (whether Eastern or Western). IMHO, the thought in the last sentence would be more correctly rendered:

It’s not an exclusion; it is the entire congregation offering up the Sacrifice of the Mass as a body together with the priest, facing the East.

As benedictgal said very well and succinctly in an earlier [post=6143580]post[/post] (emphasis added)

The priest is directing most of his actions towards God. That is the proper orientation.

 

[Lichtbroeder]

The priest doesn’t just face the altar and liturgical east to symbolically lead the people, who face the same direction with him. He also stands between the altar and the people in part as intercessor, turning first to the altar, then to the people, then back to the altar again, fulfilling his function AS a priest.

Old, beautiful churches were designed with this in mind. When our church turned the altar around decades ago, the original Gothic high altar and reredos behind it were removed. A painting of the Virgin and saints above it was painted over, statues and the altar rail were removed, and the church interior looked like a glorified barn. A horizontal swath of pews was also removed to facilitate processions and an offering table was smacked down into the center of it all as the starting point for the ritual “schlep to the altar by stumbling laypeople bearing offerings”. (Now there’s talk of removing the kneelers!) Right around the same time, our nuns abandoned their blue-grey habits and graceful starched coronets, and took to wearing tacky lay clothes, moved from the convent to an apartment, took secular jobs, and got their hair done.

Some of us have asked our pastor for a Tridentine Mass, or even a more reverential Novus Ordo, but his head is stuck in the 60’s. Nice to know that some priests sense the value and historic continuity in ad orientem.

 

[peary1]

Some of us have asked our pastor for a Tridentine Mass, or even a more reverential Novus Ordo, but his head is stuck in the 60’s. Nice to know that some priests sense the value and historic continuity in ad orientem.

He should be ready for retirement about now. I would rather have them retire and out than to have to put up with their outlandish and outdated nonsense from the 60s.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Can you explain the different between Liturgical East and directional East?

Are churches meant to physically face a particular direction?

Ideally, Churches are built with the main altar in the geographical east of the building. One entered through the western door.

However, this is not always possible. Two Latin parishes near me have the altar in the geographical west.

Nor could it be followed with altars in side chapels, even when the High Altar was in the geographical east.

Nevertheless, which ever end the altar is is the LITURGICAL east.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Ideally, Churches are built with the main altar in the geographical east of the building. One entered through the western door.

However, this is not always possible. Two Latin parishes near me have the altar in the geographical west.

A notable example being St Peter’s Basilica.

Nor could it be followed with altars in side chapels, even when the High Altar was in the geographical east.

Nevertheless, which ever end the altar is is the LITURGICAL east.

tee

 

[Lichtbroeder]

Is he facing the Tabernacle? Is the Tabernacle in the Center of the altar area? In the EF of the Latin rite (Tridentine), the Tabernacle was always situated whereby, if you were observing the celebration of the Mass, the people faced the priest, who faced the altar and Tabernacle. Now, if the Tabernacle is in another place in the church, and the priest is only facing his back to the congregation, he is wrong, unfortunately. And, in the EF, the entire Mass is celebrated with the priest’s back facing the people. Inititally, it wasn’t an exclusion; it was the entire congregation offering up the Sacrifice of the Mass as a body together with the priest facing the East and Tabernacle.

The priest doesn’t face liturgical east to face the tabernacle. He is facing east (the source of light and the rising sun) to symbolically face that light which illuminates the world: Christ. For several centuries, tabernacles were not placed in the center of the altar, but on stands or altars in side chapels, or were even suspended over altars. Yet priests still faced east when saying Mass. During Mass, it is the Mystery on the altar that we adore, not the Mystery reserved in the tabernacle, though they are ultimately one and the same.

 

[paperwight]

The priest doesn’t face liturgical east to face the tabernacle. He is facing east (the source of light and the rising sun) to symbolically face that light which illuminates the world: Christ. For several centuries, tabernacles were not placed in the center of the altar, but on stands or altars in side chapels, or were even suspended over altars. Yet priests still faced east when saying Mass. During Mass, it is the Mystery on the altar that we adore, not the Mystery reserved in the tabernacle, though they are ultimately one and the same.

Well-expressed, Lichtbroeder.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

The priest doesn’t just face the altar and liturgical east to symbolically lead the people, who face the same direction with him. He also stands between the altar and the people in part as intercessor, turning first to the altar, then to the people, then back to the altar again, fulfilling his function AS a priest.

Old, beautiful churches were designed with this in mind. When our church turned the altar around decades ago, the original Gothic high altar and reredos behind it were removed. A painting of the Virgin and saints above it was painted over, statues and the altar rail were removed, and the church interior looked like a glorified barn. A horizontal swath of pews was also removed to facilitate processions and an offering table was smacked down into the center of it all as the starting point for the ritual “schlep to the altar by stumbling laypeople bearing offerings”. (Now there’s talk of removing the kneelers!) Right around the same time, our nuns abandoned their blue-grey habits and graceful starched coronets, and took to wearing tacky lay clothes, moved from the convent to an apartment, took secular jobs, and got their hair done.

Some of us have asked our pastor for a Tridentine Mass, or even a more reverential Novus Ordo, but his head is stuck in the 60’s. Nice to know that some priests sense the value and historic continuity in ad orientem.

Lichtbroeder:

A lot of times, we (that includes me) tend to ask our priests these things AFTER MASS and WHEN THEY’RE ON THE RUN. They’re have been dozens of books of “Effective Complaining” written over the last 25-30 years. Instead of having you read all of these books, I’ll boil a couple of the few main points down for you - Because you’re talking about something that’s really important.

1. Do some research on the subject of “Liturgics” - Read some articles and maybe a book or two on the Mass,
2. Meet together with others in your Parish who agree with you about this - Write down The MAIN problems & what would you believe would solve them,
3. Try to back each of the MAIN points on the list with an Article or something from a Papal Document,
4. Schedule an appointment with your Pastor when he will have 20-30 min. available to meet with 2 or 3 members of your party,
5. Bring the list (with the “Supporting Documentation”) to the appointment with you, and
6. Be respectful - He’s a Priest of God, and Stay on Topic - This isn’t a “Gripe Session”.

Here’s one Article for you - The Mass of Vatican II, by Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., It’s a 2 page document, so click the link to PART II. Here’s another on YouTube:
Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., Moto Proprio Covering Letter
youtube.com/watch?v=jm0Wa9kApn4
That should lead to several articles. Here’s one on Kneelers.
Kneeling, Kneelers, Altar Rails & Cardinal Arinze
youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

FYI, Cardinal Arinze is the head of the Congregation of the Sacraments. hope this helps.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

The priest doesn’t face liturgical east to face the tabernacle. He is facing east (the source of light and the rising sun) to symbolically face that light which illuminates the world: Christ. For several centuries, tabernacles were not placed in the center of the altar, but on stands or altars in side chapels, or were even suspended over altars. Yet priests still faced east when saying Mass. During Mass, it is the Mystery on the altar that we adore, not the Mystery reserved in the tabernacle, though they are ultimately one and the same.

Well said - Just one thing to add… Our Lord said HE would come from the East when HE returned…
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. **Matt 24:27 NKJV

**Oh, I forgot, WELCOME! Post a couple of times a day - Read more, because there are a lot of smart & some wise people here! I hope you’re Edified what you read & by your exchanges.

Good MANE - I’m off to bed…

You Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Dicerning]

Our priest has begun facing away from the congregation during the consecrecration. He has written a letter to us in our bulletin explaining reasoning for the change. He said that it makes the prayer a verticle prayer instead of a closed circle which results from facing us. Could someone help me to understand why this is better. I feel that looking at the back of the priest during this important time of the mass excludes us.

LUCKY YOU!!!

He doesn’t have his BACK to you…he is facing the throne of salvation with you. If you think he has his back to you then you need to sit in the front pew…Heaven forbid you have the person in front of you with their back to you as well.

 

[benedictgal]

Lichtbroeder:

A lot of times, we (that includes me) tend to ask our priests these things AFTER MASS and WHEN THEY’RE ON THE RUN. They’re have been dozens of books of “Effective Complaining” written over the last 25-30 years. Instead of having you read all of these books, I’ll boil a couple of the few main points down for you - Because you’re talking about something that’s really important.

1. Do some research on the subject of “Liturgics” - Read some articles and maybe a book or two on the Mass,
2. Meet together with others in your Parish who agree with you about this - Write down The MAIN problems & what would you believe would solve them,
3. Try to back each of the MAIN points on the list with an Article or something from a Papal Document,
4. Schedule an appointment with your Pastor when he will have 20-30 min. available to meet with 2 or 3 members of your party,
5. Bring the list (with the “Supporting Documentation”) to the appointment with you, and
6. Be respectful - He’s a Priest of God, and Stay on Topic - This isn’t a “Gripe Session”.

Here’s one Article for you - The Mass of Vatican II, by Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., It’s a 2 page document, so click the link to PART II. Here’s another on YouTube:
Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J., Moto Proprio Covering Letter
youtube.com/watch?v=jm0Wa9kApn4
That should lead to several articles. Here’s one on Kneelers.
Kneeling, Kneelers, Altar Rails & Cardinal Arinze
youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM

FYI, Cardinal Arinze is the head of the Congregation of the Sacraments. hope this helps.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

The Holy Father accepted Cardinal Arinze’s resignation due to age. The new prefect is Antonio Cardinal Canizares Lloera.

 

[CDNowak]

FYI, Cardinal Arinze is the head of the Congregation of the Sacraments. hope this helps.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

Actually he retired a little over a year ago, Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera is the current prefect.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Our priest has begun facing away from the congregation during the consecracration. He has written a letter to us in our bulletin explaining reasoning for the change. He said that it makes the prayer a vertical prayer instead of a closed circle which results from facing us. Could someone help me to understand why this is better. I feel that looking at the back of the priest during this important time of the mass excludes us.

GFourbees:

1st - This doesn’t EXCLUDE you - He’s LEADING you (& the rest of the congregation) in offering prayer, praise & sacrifice to God. That’s the MOST IMPORTANT thing he can do! You can’t let your EGO get in the way - WORSHIP is about GOD, NOT about US!

2nd - From the Late 1960’s though the 1980’s there was a period of bad to no Catechesis - that included little to NO teaching on the Eucharist - so Most Catholics weren’t taught that, during the Canon of the Mass, the Priest presents the same Sacrifice to God the Father that our Lord Jesus offered for us on The Cross. and, They most certainly were never taught any of the following that Early Christian were taught in the Mystagogia (The education into the “Mysteries” of the Eucharist that every Newly Baptized Christian received after Baptism & Confirmation during the months following Baptism & Confirmation in the Early Church):

• Every Mass is a complete “Anamnesis” of everything that happened from The Last Seder of our Lord through the Agony in the Garden through the Trial before Pilate through His Crucifixion and Death on the Cross and His Resurrection from the Dead,
• Every Mass is “mystically tied” to every other Mass celebrated throughout the world and throughout history, including that first “Mass” celebrated by our Lord with His Disciples in the Upper Room, and
• Every Mass, every Divine Liturgy, is a participation in the Heavenly Liturgy where God the Father & God the Son (Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) are worshiped in Heaven by the Angels & the Saints (read Scott Hahn’s, The Marriage Supper of the Lamb) as well as by all Baptized Believers here on earth.
  These articles will give some background
  New Liturgical Movement - Two Early Liturgical Writings from Maximus the Confessor & Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite
  St. Cyril of Jerusalem - The Jerusalem Catechesis
  ldysinger.stjohnsem.edu/@texts/0387_cyril-jer/02_cyr-jr_txt1.htm

With some noted exceptions, some of the Orthodox on Catholic Answers are a little better at explaining this than most of the Catholics on CAF (right now) - I think mainly because they haven’t been dealing with the heresies about the Holy Eucharist presented by the Protestant Reformation…

Last note - I noticed you were an “INACTIVE MEMBER” – Even if all you do is READ other people’s posts, you’ll learn something about your faith. And, If you posts Prayer requests for yourself & those you love, you’ll learn quickly that you’re not alone. Our “Community” is not expressed by whether the priest faces us at Mass or how long our “Hug of peace” lasts, but how we act out here. It’s expressed by how we help, teach, listen to, edify and pray for one another.

Join us.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael