Priest facing the tabernacle in NOM?

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Valentinus

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Hello,

recently I have read that the VII documents do not say anything about whether the priest should face the tabernacle or the congregation when saying mass. Is this true? If so, how did the change happen?

Also, what prompted me to write: when I was watching TV, I came across a broadcast of a mass celebrated in some old chapel in Częstochowa. It was a rather old fashioned chapel, so to say, with altar rails and the altar by the tabernacle. The priest prayed the mass facing the tabernacle, as in the Extraordinary Rite, but it was definitely the Ordinary Rite, it was said in Polish. My question is, is this really a common practice? (I realise that there are not many places left that allow for such practice). What to make of it?

God bless, V.
 
Valentinus said:
Hello,

recently I have read that the VII documents do not say anything about whether the priest should face the tabernacle or the congregation when saying mass. Is this true? If so, how did the change happen?

Also, what prompted me to write: when I was watching TV, I came across a broadcast of a mass celebrated in some old chapel in Częstochowa. It was a rather old fashioned chapel, so to say, with altar rails and the altar by the tabernacle. The priest prayed the mass facing the tabernacle, as in the Extraordinary Rite, but it was definitely the Ordinary Rite, it was said in Polish. My question is, is this really a common practice? (I realise that there are not many places left that allow for such practice). What to make of it?

God bless, V.
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Ad orientem is in fact the normative posture for the Ordinary Form, whereas facing the people is an option.

No, unfortunately, it is not a common practice.
 
Novus Ordo Missae, I’m sorry I did not make it clear. Is there a usual English abbreviation? It is OF, I think. :rolleyes:

God bless, V.
 
Vatican II never did say anything about this. It wasn’t until the General Instruction of the Roman Missal came out that you now read these words:
“The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”
-GIRM 299
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Does this mean that Vatican II was ignored? No. The same Pope that promulgated the documents of Vatican II promulgated the GIRM.

Personally, I prefer the priest facing the tabernacle, but if it is a hill you are wanting to die on, I think you will have a hard time using Church law to fight it. At best, you can conclude that the priest has the option to face either direction.
 
Windmill said:
Vatican II never did say anything about this. It wasn’t until the General Instruction of the Roman Missal came out that you now read these words:

Does this mean that Vatican II was ignored? No. The same Pope that promulgated the documents of Vatican II promulgated the GIRM.

Personally, I prefer the priest facing the tabernacle, but if it is a hill you are wanting to die on, I think you will have a hard time using Church law to fight it. At best, you can conclude that the priest has the option to face either direction.
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I believe the translation you quoted above was later corrected. The Latin doesn’t say that facing the people is always desireable, but rather that having a free stansing altar is desireable when possible. That’s my understanding.

I have seen Ad Orientem OF masses. Actually our current Pope, Francis, celebrated the OF mass Ad Orientem at the tomb of Pope St John Paul. Benedict did so a number of times within the Sistene Chapel.
 
twf said:
I believe the translation you quoted above was later corrected. The Latin doesn’t say that facing the people is always desireable, but rather that having a free stansing altar is desireable when possible. That’s my understanding.

I have seen Ad Orientem OF masses. Actually our current Pope, Francis, celebrated the OF mass Ad Orientem at the tomb of Pope St John Paul. Benedict did so a number of times within the Sistene Chapel.
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Correct.

The original “translation” did not say what I quoted. I quoted the correct translation which is more accurate.
 
Valentinus said:
My question is, is this really a common practice? (I realise that there are not many places left that allow for such practice). What to make of it?
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There are several churches in London where the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated like this, churches like the Brompton Oratory in South Kensington and Corpus Christi near Covent garden.

This position makes more sense regarding the theology of what happens during the Consecration, regardless of whether the Mass is Novus Ordo or TLM.
 
Windmill said:
Correct.

The original “translation” did not say what I quoted. I quoted the correct translation which is more accurate.
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While the translation you quoted is indeed the official English translation, it is not an accurate translation of the Latin.

According to the Latin, what is preferable is the building of the altar freestanding, not the celebration of Mass facing the people. This is due to the quod being a neuter pronoun, which cannot therefore refer back to the celebratio (feminine) or populum (masculine). It can therefore only connect to the main clause (“Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum…”)

It is that freestanding altars are desirable (it does not imply ripping out old high altars, or even building new ones), only that any new altars built should be freestanding to allow both incensing all around and Mass celebrated facing the people. GIRM 299 does not say that Mass facing the people is the preferred posture. The English translation is extraordinarily misleading.
 
porthos11 said:
While the translation you quoted is indeed the official English translation, it is not an accurate translation of the Latin.

According to the Latin, what is preferable is the building of the altar freestanding, not the celebration of Mass facing the people. This is due to the quod being a neuter pronoun, which cannot therefore refer back to the celebratio (feminine) or populum (masculine). It can therefore only connect to the main clause (“Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum…”)

It is that freestanding altars are desirable (it does not imply ripping out old high altars, or even building new ones), only that any new altars built should be freestanding to allow both incensing all around and Mass celebrated facing the people. GIRM 299 does not say that Mass facing the people is the preferred posture. The English translation is extraordinarily misleading.
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Indeed. Also mistranslated IMO was “facing the people” when the Latin “versus” could have been translated as “having turned toward the people” as when the priest turns at the “Dominus vobiscum” in the EF. This presumes he faces in the same direction as the people to begin with. In Latin there is a distinction between “ad populum,” “ad versus populum” and “(con)versus populum.”
 
ProVobis said:
Indeed. Also mistranslated IMO was “facing the people” when the Latin “versus” could have been translated as “having turned toward the people” as when the priest turns at the “Dominus vobiscum” in the EF. This presumes he faces in the same direction as the people to begin with. In Latin there is a distinction between “ad populum,” “ad versus populum” and “(con)versus populum.”
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This is in other sections of the GIRM, not necessarily 299. GIRM 299 does clearly allow Mass facing the people, making it an option, but neither a mandate nor even a more desirable orientation.

But other sections of the GIRM, outside of 299 do indicate that “while facing the people” and “while facing the altar” (cf. 146, 157, 158) presuming that the altar and people are NOT the same direction.
 
porthos11 said:
Ad orientem is in fact the normative posture for the Ordinary Form, whereas facing the people is an option.

No, unfortunately, it is not a common practice.
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^ What they said.

It was how it was always done. Then it got changed. Used to be the priest prayed to God in front of him on behalf FOR the people that were behind him.
 
It is my understanding that pre-Vatican II dialogue Masses were sometimes said facing the people.

Someone posted in this forum a picture of the EF Mass at the Vatican being said facing the people.
 
TimothyH said:
It is my understanding that pre-Vatican II dialogue Masses were sometimes said facing the people.

Someone posted in this forum a picture of the EF Mass at the Vatican being said facing the people.
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You are of course correct; the EF can be celebrated facing the people too, because, as in the OF, celebration facing the people is an option.
 
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