A
- Status
R
rpp
Guest
Let me amplfy my previous statement here.
Celibate = Total Abstinence = Absolute Chastity
(Virginity can and should be presumed, but many faithful priests were not always faithful; e.g. St. Augustine.)
A priest can no sooner take part in voluntary sexual pleasure than he can murder his neighbor. That some have done this does not mean it is not gravely sinful or scandalous.
J
jkarp
Guest
You statement excludes a large number of faithful men; you completely ignore our Orthodox and Byzantine (and other Eastern church) brethren. Are you saying that Orthodox priests who fulfill their marital obligations are sinning? Further, virginity does not necessarily need to be presumed in order for a person to be chaste or celebate or to take a vow of chastity. Celibate means “not married.” Chastity means “morality with respect to sexual relations” i.e., marital relations are a chaste act. Neither have a whole lot to do directly with virginity. Look it up:
dictionary.reference.com/browse/celibacy
dictionary.reference.com/browse/chastity
R
rpp
Guest
Dude, I made the same assumption that everyone else did. The topic is about Latin Rite priests. The most common type of priest out there. So yes, I was ignoring them becuase I am not Latin Rite and the Topic was about Latin Rite and everyone else was smart enough to know we were talking about Latin Rite.
What is the purpose of this post of than to try attack me for no reason? Are you just upset that I think (Latin Rite) priests should not be sleeping around? Or are you just upset that everyone is talking about Latin Rite priests and you want to show us how dumb we all are and my post was the last one in the thread? Which is it? Yes, this is a real question. I expect an answer.
As for “presuming” virginity in a priest, if you want to presume that an unmarried celibate (Latin Rite) priest is promiscuous, go right ahead. But I would keep that to yourself, if I were you.
J
jkarp
Guest
The forum “Moral Theology” assumes Latin Rite? This thread is directed specifically at Latin rite Roman Catholic priests? I guess I made the mistake of thinking that a thread referring to “Catholic priests” was referring to all Catholic Priests (which, by the way there are other Catholic rites than Latin in full communion with Rome), how near-sighted of me. I guess I missed that part in the original thread:
Granted, I’m not wearing my glasses but I still don’t see where it says, “Latin Rite Priest.” What was it again that the Bad News Bears taught us happens when we assume?
I didn’t “attack” you and wasn’t trying to pick a fight with a fellow Roman Catholic computer programmer. I am merely trying to correct inaccuracies (this forum is a tool used for teaching, no?).
Dude, settle down. Read my post, I say nothing encouraging sexual promiscuity, please do not put words in my mouth that I didn’t say. Is your real response to someone making a (valid) point to try to publicly flame them? Didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas say something to the effect of,". . .the first reaction of the natural man when confronted with truth, is anger . . ."? I’m not really certain where your anger or aggression comes from. I have reread my response and it is reasonable and rational; if it is in someway wrong then show me where, don’t start tossing insults and hate around.
Again, my post said nothing regarding sexual promiscuity. What I did say is that taking a vow of celibacy or chastity says nothing about having previously had sexual intercourse. I definitely did not say that (Latin Rite) priests should be having sex (read my other posts in this thread, I say quite the opposite).
I think the real problem is that you are reading what you think my post says, not what it actually does. I’ll try to make my point again:
Your post said:
Which is not necessarily correct (I’m not saying it is never correct):
Celibacy == “Not Married” // as you, among others, point out should include abstinence, and
Chastity == “Morality with respect to sexual relations” // this doesn’t necessarily include abstinence:
**Chastity != Abstinence **// the two are related but are neither mutually inclusive nor exclusive
(do you like the ‘C’ language references? Come on, lighten up)
As your post points out, a priest who has taken a vow of celibacy and abstains from sexual relations is chaste. However it is also true that a man and woman who have taken a vow of marriage and partake in sexual relations (with each other) are also chaste. Chastity is not the equivalent of abstinence.
Note: I am not saying it is okay for a priest to live unchastely, we all should strive to live chaste lives.* I am merely trying to point out that the terms are not equivalents.*
J
jkarp
Guest
I thought of one additional thought I want to add. This is one of the great glories of the Catholic Church! We have the sacrament of confession! A person who is now a celebate priest living a chaste life does not have to be a virgin. If a man has led a promiscuous life and then has a sudden (or gradual) conversion, he can receive reconciliation and his past life is forgiven. A person who was at one time (in the past) lived promiscuously and repents can live chastely. I don’t see why we necessarily must presume virginity (or why it is even an issue).
G
Grace_Angel
Guest
The answer Bimby is absolutely NO. And the ex seminarian now anti catholic would not say different. He is probably angry at having been refused continuation of priestly studies and asked to leave seminary life. I have met several young men who were refused priesthood and became embittered against the Church. Yet to speak with them it is clear why they could not possibly have been priests. It would have been scandalous.
The answer Bimby again is No. Sexual intimacy is within marriage and marriage only (though today it is not so) so a priest, in persona christi, is espoused to the Church, who is the “bride”
I hope this helps. Dont stress he is just wrong.
GraceAngel
R
rian
Guest
Hi -this line of convo got me interested -what exactly happens if a priest does break his vow -either of celibacy or chastity -what is the consequence to said priest?
Are they excommunicated, can they confess, repent and retain their standing within the church? (obviously in the case of marriage repentance would still leave you married so I can’t imagine that being looked over so to speak)
Who is responsible for determining these consequences, is there a hearing of some sort?
I’m honestly a little curious about the process of internal judgement being applied -particularly in this area and in such an overtly sexual age.
Are they excommunicated, can they confess, repent and retain their standing within the church? (obviously in the case of marriage repentance would still leave you married so I can’t imagine that being looked over so to speak)
Who is responsible for determining these consequences, is there a hearing of some sort?
I’m honestly a little curious about the process of internal judgement being applied -particularly in this area and in such an overtly sexual age.
P
Phemie
Guest
If it doesn’t become public knowledge he can repent, confess and no one but his confessor will ever know. Confessor can’t do anything with the knowledge.
In the one case I’m familiar with the priest’s faculties were suspended and he was shipped back to his own country within the week. That one however didn’t become public knowledge.
J
Joannm
Guest
Secualr priests don’t take vows, they make promises. Not that this makes any difference in the discussion, but it is important to know the proper terminology.
Also my husband, when he became a deacon, made a promise of celibacy. That means that if I die he cannot remarry. It does not mean that we cannot have sex. However, since we are married, any sexual intimacy is perfectly legitimate and not sinful. If a priest who made a promise of celibacy had sex, that would be a sin, in the same way it would be a sin for anyone else who wasn’t married and the way to remedy the situation would be the same as for anyone else…sacramental confession. If it were an ongoing thing and was made public, the priest might have his faculties suspended for awhile or not be allowed to say mass in public because of scanda until he has made up his mind if he wants to continue to live a life in opposition to his promise or to return to active ministry.
Also my husband, when he became a deacon, made a promise of celibacy. That means that if I die he cannot remarry. It does not mean that we cannot have sex. However, since we are married, any sexual intimacy is perfectly legitimate and not sinful. If a priest who made a promise of celibacy had sex, that would be a sin, in the same way it would be a sin for anyone else who wasn’t married and the way to remedy the situation would be the same as for anyone else…sacramental confession. If it were an ongoing thing and was made public, the priest might have his faculties suspended for awhile or not be allowed to say mass in public because of scanda until he has made up his mind if he wants to continue to live a life in opposition to his promise or to return to active ministry.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
M
malphono
Guest
Joannm is correct. Only Religious priests (monks, friars, etc) take vows.Joannm:
Can you run that by us againSecualr priests don’t take vows
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
Just today during his homily, a newly ordained priest (this is just his second assignment) commented that when he “took his **vow **of obedience to the bishop upon becoming a priest …”
P
puzzleannie
Guest
now why would you even take the word of such a person, admitted apostate, as true on this matter? why even give the idea the time of day?
M
malphono
Guest
If this was a secular priest, it’s either bad terminology and/or lack of instruction. If it was a religious priest, it was correct. Secular priest make promises. Religious priests (actually all religious: nuns, brothers, etc) take vows.
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
He’s a priest in my parish. How do I tell if he is a religious priest or a secular priest? When he reads the gospel, he makes a fourth cross with his thumb on his hand in addition to the normal three that I see most other priests make on their forehead, lips & chest. Does that mean anything?
B
benedictgal
Guest
During the Chrism Mass, the priests renew their promises to the bishop. I direct your attention to the 1997 document from the Congregation for Clergy. Even though the document treats the collaboration of the non-ordained faithful in the Sacred Ministry of the Priest and this section handles EMHCs, this is the terminology used:
Now, does the vow of celibacy occur when the diocesan seminarian is ordained to the transisitonal diaconate? If that is the case, does this then become a promise when he is ordained to the priesthood as a diocesan priest?
A Paulist friend of mine made his final promises before he was ordained a transitional deaqcon. If memory serves, he made his vow of celibacy at his diaconate ordination. I was present for this ordination, and was ready to go to his presbyteral ordination (out of state), but, then-Gov. Richards had the Texas Legislature stay in perpetual special session so I couldn’t go.
I am just curious.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Do the priests in your parish have letters after their names? For example, if the priest’s name reads something like, Fr. James Smith, SDB, this means that he is a Salesian (or Son) of Don Bosco. Fr. James Smith, SJ, means that he is a member of the Society of Jesus (Jesuit). Fr. James Smith, CSP, means that he is a member of the Paulist Fathers. Fr. James Smith, OP, means that he is a member of the Order of Preachers (Dominicans). Fr. James Smith, CSC, means that he is a member of the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Fr. James Smith, OFM, means that he is a member of the Order of Franciscans Minor. I could go on, but, I think you catch my drift.
A
Aramis
Guest
It should be noted that Celibacy is not entering into any new marriage.
Chastity is not having sex outside the bounds of lawful and licit marriage.
So, in the most legalistic sense, sexual congress is not a violation of the solemn vow of celibacy, which all ordered clerics take, nor of the solemn promise which all secular clerics take.
However, any sex outside of marriage is both unchaste and inherently sinful, so a cleric having sex with anyone (or anything) other than his validly entered Catholic Marriage is a sin.
For most ordered clerics, they also take a solemn vow of chastity prior to deaconal ordination.
And the difference between solemn vows and solemn promises is one of degree; the solemn vows may only be dispensed or dissolved by the pope.
Chastity is not having sex outside the bounds of lawful and licit marriage.
So, in the most legalistic sense, sexual congress is not a violation of the solemn vow of celibacy, which all ordered clerics take, nor of the solemn promise which all secular clerics take.
However, any sex outside of marriage is both unchaste and inherently sinful, so a cleric having sex with anyone (or anything) other than his validly entered Catholic Marriage is a sin.
For most ordered clerics, they also take a solemn vow of chastity prior to deaconal ordination.
And the difference between solemn vows and solemn promises is one of degree; the solemn vows may only be dispensed or dissolved by the pope.
J
Joannm
Guest
The promise of celibacy does occur at diaconate ordination. I don’t recall the exact wording. Married deacon candidates make this promise privately and unmarried deacons or transitional deacons make it publically before the bishop at ordination as far as I recall. I know my husband didn’t make it at ordination but one of his classmates did.
- Status