Priest made startling comment to me

[discernmentinpr]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

 

[the_phoenix]

“Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.”

~~ Matthew 5:48

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Well, what do you consider a devout life? Every one of us is called to put God first in our lives, to make His will our own, to, as John the Baptist said, “decrease so that he may increase.”

We are not ALL called to walk around with a rosary wrapped around our hands and with a mantilla on our bent heads at all times.

However, as Catholics we defend the Church and her teachings in the marketplace because they are God’s teachings. We stand up for life, for true marriage, for justice for the poor, and we vote accordingly. We do not engage in gossip and we try to stop it when we hear it. We do not use vulgar language and protest or at least silently pray when our Lord’s name is used in vain. We do not engage in sexually provocative talk or activity and walk away when it occurs around us. We don’t cheat our employers, employees or our customers. We arrange our schedule around Sunday (or Saturday evening) Mass and don’t make apologies for missing the ball game or barbeque because we owe the Lord our worship.

Just because MOST Catholics don’t live devout lives is no excuse not to live a truly devout life. I am sorry to hear that your former pastor gave you such advice. In my opinion, it is bad advice. We are all called to be holy, we are all called to be saints because only saints get to heaven.

 

[Micko]

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation;

Many Catholics don’t understand the spiritual component of faith. If they don’t accept Christ into their hearts they never change. They never desire to be Christ like. They just go to confession occasionally (if they even do that) and think everything will just work itself out.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This “Born Again” is a spiritual change which takes place for most Christians when they understand that Christ will deliver them from their sins If they ask for forgiveness and they will not suffer Hell which is exactly what we deserve.

The Book of Romans makes this case very well. Salvation is a gift of God. Romans 10:9 says we must confess (profess) that we accept the risen Christ as our Lord and Savior. Then a Spiritual change can take place. This is an individual change, establishing a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven. Study the Bible on your own and go to a Bible study with people who understand these principles.

In Gratitude to our Savior we work to rid the sin out of our lives and do good works.
Sinners we are but Saints we are called to be.

 

[Petaro]

Well, what do you consider a devout life? Every one of us is called to put God first in our lives, to make His will our own, to, as John the Baptist said, “decrease so that he may increase.”

We are not ALL called to walk around with a rosary wrapped around our hands and with a mantilla on our bent heads at all times.

However, as Catholics we defend the Church and her teachings in the marketplace because they are God’s teachings. We stand up for life, for true marriage, for justice for the poor, and we vote accordingly. We do not engage in gossip and we try to stop it when we hear it. We do not use vulgar language and protest or at least silently pray when our Lord’s name is used in vain. We do not engage in sexually provocative talk or activity and walk away when it occurs around us. We don’t cheat our employers, employees or our customers. We arrange our schedule around Sunday (or Saturday evening) Mass and don’t make apologies for missing the ball game or barbeque because we owe the Lord our worship.

Just because MOST Catholics don’t live devout lives is no excuse not to live a truly devout life. I am sorry to hear that your former pastor gave you such advice. In my opinion, it is bad advice. We are all called to be holy, we are all called to be saints because only saints get to heaven.

A very wise post. We recognise our Christ in all things so He will recognise us.

 

[Della]

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation;

Many Catholics don’t understand the spiritual component of faith. If they don’t accept Christ into their hearts they never change. They never desire to be Christ like. They just go to confession occasionally (if they even do that) and think everything will just work itself out.

You’ve made a lot of assumptions based on what? No one, not you or I or anyone but God can know how many Catholics or any other persons baptized in Christ have good spiritual lives. Catholics must to go to confession when we have grave sins to confess, although even minor offenses are good to confess, as well for the grace reconciliation provides us–which we know we will receive not merely hope we will.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This “Born Again” is a spiritual change which takes place for most Christians when they understand that Christ will deliver them from their sins If they ask for forgiveness and they will not suffer Hell which is exactly what we deserve.

That’s not all that Jesus said to Nicodemus. He goes on to tell him just what he meant by being “born again” in which he said nothing at all about any “personal relationship” with anybody. You are reading verse 16through your Baptist lenses and omitting verses that don’t line up with that interpretation. The true interpretation is that baptism is the initiation into God’s kingdom not a “personal relationship” with God–whatever that’s supposed to mean. Jesus commanded the Apostles to go and baptize all nations in the name of the Holy Trinity. He said nothing at all about telling people they need a “personal relationship” with anybody.

The Book of Romans makes this case very well. Salvation is a gift of God. Romans 10:9 says we must confess (profess) that we accept the risen Christ as our Lord and Savior. Then a Spiritual change can take place. This is an individual change, establishing a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven. Study the Bible on your own and go to a Bible study with people who understand these principles.

We Catholics do read and study the Bible and know perfectly well what Romans, as well as all the other books mean for us and our salvation, thank you. Bible study is encouraged in the Church. My parish has a Bible study every Wednesday morning for those interested. And we have special Bible studies in the evenings that cover one book at a time.

In Gratitude to our Savior we work to rid the sin out of our lives and do good works.
Sinners we are but Saints we are called to be.

Gratitude yes, but more than this. When we cooperate in doing Christian acts of charity we are doing God’s own work through his grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. This engenders more grace in others and aids us in our salvation, for no one can please God who doesn’t obey him, doing what he has commanded us to do–what the Church describes as the corporal (bodily) and spiritual acts of charity.

 

[z_0101]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

I think we need a lot more context than what you’ve given here… look at the range of responses.

At the very least, we need to understand yours and the pastor’s definitions of devout .

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Were those his exact words? Whatever he said, it’s possible he was trying to counterbalance scrupulosity on your part. But I doubt he was telling you not to strive for perfection. The Catechism states:

2013 “All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity.” All are called to holiness: “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift . . .

It is true, priests and religious have a special call to holiness; but this doesn’t mean the rest of us are off the hook. We are all called to become as holy as we can, according to our state in life.

As to how to achieve sanctity in the lay state and in the modern world, books have been written on this. You might start with something like The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, or Abandonment to Divine Providence by Jean-Pierre de Caussade, or Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. There is also a collections of St. Francis de Sales’ correspondence with people in the world, titled Thy Will Be Done.

 

[MaryT777]

a lot of good responses.

 

[JRKH]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

I do not want to second guess this priest since you have provided almost no context for the comment and I do not know you or the state of your spiritual life. But to answer your question…

Yes it is important for Catholics to live devout lives. However that devotion can take many forms. Also one must be careful because devotion can, in some cases, be misdirected and become a barrier to true spiritual growth. So how do we know that we are on the right track? We look to how we are embracing and reflecting agape.

Someone quoted Mt 5:48, “You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. This is a fine quote, but without the context, it can be easily misunderstood and misapplied. the passage containing this verse (Mt 5:43-48) speaks of Agape…of Loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute you - of going beyond what is normal and, in many ways, natural.

How do we do this in our “secular culture”? Culture has little to do with it actually. Every century - time - era has had it’s troubles and temptations. We live devout lives in contrast to worldly culture - not somehow in concert with it.
If you wold be devout - then show love - “Do small things with great Love”.

“How devout?” As devout (dedicated) as we can be given our state in life and the grace God has given us. It doesn’t matter how many masses we attend, or how many rosaries or chaplets we pray or if we do this consecration or that, or none at all - - and perhaps this is what your priest was getting at. These things are all good and helpful, but they are not the root and core of what it means to be devout.
What matters is how much we reflect Christ and embrace agape and grow in agape (Love).

Hope this helps a little…

Peace
James

 

[Dorothy]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

To answer your question…Yes! it is important for Catholic lay people to live devout lives! We have no excuse whatsoever to not do so, as we have all the treasures of the Church to help us. Our Lord could have not been more generous to us!

In a secular world such as we live in, we need to become acquainted with other Catholic lay people to form community with them. Our Lord told us to live in the world, but not to be of the world. We have prayer, sacraments, our Blessed Mother, angels, saints, and many very gifted priests to encourage and advise us. If we seek and pray, the Lord will lead us to friends and spiritual advisors who can lead us on our spiritual journey.

If we are open to the Lord’s blessings and renew our faith daily with the helps we need, He will be generous in gracing us with the ability to live and act as He wills us to do. Do not allow the evil one to convince you otherwise, for nothing is impossible with God!

(and be patient with yourself on this journey.)

 

[JRKH]

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation;

Many Catholics don’t understand the spiritual component of faith. If they don’t accept Christ into their hearts they never change. They never desire to be Christ like. They just go to confession occasionally (if they even do that) and think everything will just work itself out.

Some good thoughts here - but I would respectfully suggest that we can expand this to read, “Many Christians don’t understand the spiritual component of faith.” I don’t think that this is something confined to Catholics by any means.
Think of the parable of the sower and the seed. 2 of the four examples offered in that parable entail people accepting the Gospel but then falling away…something I’m sure that ALL devout Christians see regularly - whatever the faith tradition.
This always stems from not understanding the spiritual component of faith and (in many cases) thinking “everything will just work out”.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This “Born Again” is a spiritual change which takes place for most Christians when they understand that Christ will deliver them from their sins If they ask for forgiveness and they will not suffer Hell which is exactly what we deserve.

The Book of Romans makes this case very well. Salvation is a gift of God. Romans 10:9 says we must confess (profess) that we accept the risen Christ as our Lord and Savior. Then a Spiritual change can take place. This is an individual change, establishing a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven. Study the Bible on your own and go to a Bible study with people who understand these principles.

Some good stuff here - except for the last line…
While it is good to study the bible…it should never be “on your own”. Scripture itself does not support such an idea. Rather, the study of Scripture should be done within the community of the Church. The Bereans (sp?) were commended for searching the Scriptures, but as a community - not as individuals.
We are called to community - we ARE a community - the Body of Christ and as such we are to work together to grow in understanding and in holiness.

So - by all means - study the bible - but not “on your own”, for this is how error can creep in. Rather, study Scripture within the community so that the spirits (understandings) can be tested.

The very last part of the sentence…to study with “people who understand these principles” is a great point…we must be careful that those we study with are not teaching error…and that is where the Church, and the Catechism, are critically important.

In Gratitude to our Savior we work to rid the sin out of our lives and do good works.
Sinners we are but Saints we are called to be.

AMEN…

Peace
James

 

[Memaw]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

Maybe you should ask him that question and make him explain what he meant by that. While it may be true that many Catholics. (and other Christians) don’t live devout lives, (to many cafeteria Catholics today.) they pick and choose what they want to believe. I would say it is very important for lay people to live holy lives today as always for our own salvation and because we are the ones that come in constant contact with others and need to set a good example. We need to truly learn our Holy Faith. There are soooo many ways to do so today. Catholic Answers is one of them and of course our blessed Catholic Catechism. We have no excuse for not knowing our Catholic Faith and for not passing it on to others whenever we can, especially our children!! I grew up in a small town with no Catholic Church for miles around but My Mother taught her large family all about the Catholic Faith. We were taught a love for the Sacraments, even if we weren’t able to receive them very often. We didn’t have a car for years. Our Blessed Mother was a constant guest in our home. Mom KNEW her faith and was able to pass it on to us until we were old enough to live it ourselves. We were all Baptized and as the younger ones got old enough a friend of Mom’s would come get them, take them to her house for the summer and teach them so they could make their First Holy Communion. I was the last to make my Communion while attending a Catholic School before we moved to another state. Believe me , if there is a will, there’s a way. We want everything to be sooo easy today. Maybe that’s why we don’t always appreciate how precious our Catholic Faith really is. God Bless, Memaw

 

[guanophore]

Some good stuff here - except for the last line…
While it is good to study the bible…it should never be “on your own”. Scripture itself does not support such an idea. Rather, the study of Scripture should be done within the community of the Church. ** The Bereans (sp?) were commended for searching the Scriptures,** but as a community - not as individuals.
We are called to community - we ARE a community - the Body of Christ and as such we are to work together to grow in understanding and in holiness.

So - by all means - study the bible - but not “on your own”, for this is how error can creep in. Rather, study Scripture within the community so that the spirits (understandings) can be tested.

The very last part of the sentence…to study with “people who understand these principles” is a great point…we must be careful that those we study with are not teaching error…and that is where the Church, and the Catechism, are critically important.

AMEN…

Peace
James

You make the crucial point, James. This passage about the Bereans is often used by our Sola Scriptura brethren to “prove” that all preaching should be compared and judged by Scripture. And indeed, authentic preaching will never contradict the Scriptures. But use of that passage is usually taken out of context:

Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so. Ac 17:11

What made the Bereans “more noble” than those in Thessalonica was that they "received the [Apostolic] Word with all eagerness, not that they studied the Scriptures “on their own”.

The starting point, is an open heart and mind to the Apostolic faith. Once a person receives this teaching with “eagerness”, they Scriptures can be read and understood in the light of Sacred Tradition.

 

[agnes_therese]

Many Catholics don’t understand the spiritual component of faith. If they don’t accept Christ into their hearts they never change. They never desire to be Christ like. They just go to confession occasionally (if they even do that) and think everything will just work itself out.

I wonder how many Catholics you know well enough to know the interior dispositions of their hearts?

 

[SJacob7]

You’ve made a lot of assumptions based on what? No one, not you or I or anyone but God can know how many Catholics or any other persons baptized in Christ have good spiritual lives. Catholics must to go to confession when we have grave sins to confess, although even minor offenses are good to confess, as well for the grace reconciliation provides us–which we know we will receive not merely hope we will.

That’s not all that Jesus said to Nicodemus. He goes on to tell him just what he meant by being “born again” in which he said nothing at all about any “personal relationship” with anybody. You are reading verse 16through your Baptist lenses and omitting verses that don’t line up with that interpretation. The true interpretation is that baptism is the initiation into God’s kingdom not a “personal relationship” with God–whatever that’s supposed to mean. Jesus commanded the Apostles to go and baptize all nations in the name of the Holy Trinity. He said nothing at all about telling people they need a “personal relationship” with anybody.

We Catholics do read and study the Bible and know perfectly well what Romans, as well as all the other books mean for us and our salvation, thank you. Bible study is encouraged in the Church. My parish has a Bible study every Wednesday morning for those interested. And we have special Bible studies in the evenings that cover one book at a time.

Gratitude yes, but more than this. When we cooperate in doing Christian acts of charity we are doing God’s own work through his grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. This engenders more grace in others and aids us in our salvation, for no one can please God who doesn’t obey him, doing what he has commanded us to do–what the Church describes as the corporal (bodily) and spiritual acts of charity.

I disagree 100% with you stating that you don’t need a relationship with Jesus. Where then is your relationship? Where then is your faith, trust, hope, salvation if it is not through a relationship with Jesus? As Jesus states in Matt 7:23, “I never knew you, depart from me.” I hope you reconsider having a relationship with Jesus, the one from whom your salvation comes from.

Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Dorothy]

I disagree 100% with you stating that you don’t need a relationship with Jesus. Where then is your relationship? Where then is your faith, trust, hope, salvation if it is not through a relationship with Jesus? As Jesus states in Matt 7:23, “I never knew you, depart from me.” I hope you reconsider having a relationship with Jesus, the one from whom your salvation comes from.

Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I don’t believe that Della is saying what you think she is saying about a personal relationship with Jesus.

What is more personal than receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist? And preparing for that beforehand, and after as well, with a deep prayer life?

 

[z_0101]

I don’t believe that Della is saying what you think she is saying about a personal relationship with Jesus.

What is more personal than receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist? And preparing for that beforehand, and after as well, with a deep prayer life?

 

[JRKH]

I disagree 100% with you stating that you don’t need a relationship with Jesus. Where then is your relationship? Where then is your faith, trust, hope, salvation if it is not through a relationship with Jesus? As Jesus states in Matt 7:23, “I never knew you, depart from me.” I hope you reconsider having a relationship with Jesus, the one from whom your salvation comes from.

With all due respect, can you please point out where Della stated that which I have highlighted above?
I really do not see it.
I DO see a comment where I suspect you might have gotten the wrong impression…but I would like to verify this.

Just to be clear on the basic premise of having a “personal relationship” with Jesus…practicing Catholics have a most intimate relationship with Him. Just this morning I received Him into myself, “body, blood, soul and divinity”, at mass.
So please do not assume that Catholics do not believe in or promote having a relationship with their savior.

I think that where the problem comes in for Catholics in these kinds of discussions is trying to pin down just what is meant by the phrase, “Personal relationship with Jesus”. As with so many things protestant, it seems that it can have as many meanings as there are “persons” defining that “personal relationship”.

Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Nice quote and quite relevant. But consider this question as you read this…how many of those referenced in the quote thought and believed they had a personal relationship with Jesus. After all, look at all they did - “In His Name”.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

So I was told by my former pastor today that most Catholics don’t live devout lives, and he said to not worry about how much my life reflects Catholicism, because I am only a lay person. This startled me greatly.

My question is: Is it important for Catholics lay people to live devout lives? If so, how in a secular culture? How devout?

This sounds like a pastor trying to comfort someone suffering from scrupulosity, but it is hard to say from the lack of context.

I agree with you, regardless of our state in life, we are all called to be Holy and devout.

But I do agree with yoru pastor also that most Catholics are not living a devout life. This is obvious from the polls of those who claim to be Catholic and don’t attend Mass and willfully disobey the Teachings of the Church.

Let us pray that our lives might be light and salt to them.