Priest not genuflecting after consecration

[eelpis]

An assistant priest in my parish is not genuflecting after the consecration. He’s young and has no knee problems as he kneels before and after mass. All the other priests in the parish genuflect and the bishop does so too, when celebrating Mass in our church.
Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?
I must say that I try to stay away from his masses if I can, but I’m not sure that is the best thing to do.
Several fellow parishoners have noticed it and have been a bit taken aback.
What I’m concered with is the seemingly lack of reverence for Our Lord, and the effect that might have on my children.

 

[japhy]

An assistant priest in my parish is not genuflecting after the consecration. He’s young and has no knee problems as he kneels before and after mass. All the other priests in the parish genuflect and the bishop does so too, when celebrating Mass in our church.

Is this an abuse?

Sure sounds like it; from what you’ve said, there doesn’t appear to be anything preventing him from kneeling or excluding him from the obligation.

If so what is to be done about it? I must say that I try to stay away from his masses if I can, but I’m not sure that is the best thing to do. Several fellow parishoners have noticed it and have been a bit taken aback.

Ask him about politely, if you can; maybe you and another person could go together.

What I’m concered with is the seemingly lack of reverence for Our Lord, and the effect that might have on my children.

Certainly, when a priest (or anyone, for that matter, but an ordained man most especially) omits signs of reverence, there is cause for concern.

 

[TheDoctor]

Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?

Abuse? Possibly, if he knows he is to do it and does not while physically able.

What can be done? Um, how about talking to him? Something along the lines of “Father, just wanted to say Thank You for giving your life to serve God and us. There is something that confuses me though and I was hoping you could clear it up for me. I notice everyone seems to kneel…”

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, ask him about it. Or, if you are not comfortable doing that, ask your pastor about it, admitting that you are bashful about approaching the younger priest directly. There is a reason that priests are not given their own parish right away, after all.

 

[timmo]

Hi

Originally Posted by eelpis
Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (n. 274) is clear. “During Mass three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of host, after the showing of the chalice and before Communion.”

Hopefully this is just ignorance on the part of the priest.
Do not be surprised if you find your complaint is ignored or if you are given misleading reasons.
Questions you might ask the priest, if he cannot give you an acceptable reason, are:

*Why do you refuse to genuflect in adoration to the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that the bread and wine you consecrated are truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it your intention not to offer The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass in the manner required by the Magesterium?

If you refuse to genuflect in adoration at the consecration you are being disobedient to the Magesterium, causing grievous scandal and offering an insult of infinite degree to God.*

The laity is entitled to a liturgy celebrated in accordance with lawful norms.

Tim

 

[bpbasilphx]

Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?

**Mind your own business. There well may be something you do NOT know going on here.

In any case, you can’t see into his heart.**

 

[eelpis]

Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?

**Mind your own business. There well may be something you do NOT know going on here.

In any case, you can’t see into his heart.**

Thanks for your deep concern
It reminds me of why I prefer the EF or the Liturgy of St Peter, the most ancient of Christian rites.

 

[eelpis]

Hi

The laity is entitled to a liturgy celebrated in accordance with lawful norms.

Tim

Thanks:thumbsup:

Liberals love clericalism when it suits their agenda.

 

[TheDoctor]

[Edited] As “timmo” pointed out, the genuflections are mandated by the GIRM and while it is true that we cannot see into his heart, we can see the physical body.

Again, there may be a valid physical reason why he does not genuflect (which btw is why I think 'timmo"'s questions are way too strong and in-your-face"), however I see nothing wrong with the OP asking the priest to clear this up. My gut feeling is that there IS a physical reason or else the pastor would have done something about it.

Our priests though are a model for us. They expect us (the faithful) to follow the GIRM and the guidelines for the Mass. They expect us to stand, sit, kneel, sign, process, pray and sing when we should. I don’t see where it is a big deal to ask them for the same.

 

[eelpis]

I would respectfully disagree. As “timmo” pointed out, the genuflections are mandated by the GIRM and while it is true that we cannot see into his heart, we can see the physical body.

Again, there may be a valid physical reason why he does not genuflect (which btw is why I think 'timmo"'s questions are way too strong and in-your-face"), however I see nothing wrong with the OP asking the priest to clear this up. My gut feeling is that there IS a physical reason or else the pastor would have done something about it.

Our priests though are a model for us. They expect us (the faithful) to follow the GIRM and the guidelines for the Mass. They expect us to stand, sit, kneel, sign, process, pray and sing when we should. I don’t see where it is a big deal to ask them for the same.

There cannot be a physical reason why he does not genuflect since he genuflects at the entrance and at the recession. At least that’s how it seems. I will gather some courage and ask him in a respectful manner.

 

[fbl9]

do not confront your priest instead pray for him…that God may show him his error…a sanit from the 1900’s gave this advice now if could find the bulletin from on which this post was based i could give the exact name…

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Hi

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (n. 274) is clear. “During Mass three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of host, after the showing of the chalice and before Communion.”

Hopefully this is just ignorance on the part of the priest.
Do not be surprised if you find your complaint is ignored or if you are given misleading reasons.
Questions you might ask the priest, if he cannot give you an acceptable reason, are:

*Why do you refuse to genuflect in adoration to the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that the bread and wine you consecrated are truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it your intention not to offer The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass in the manner required by the Magesterium?

If you refuse to genuflect in adoration at the consecration you are being disobedient to the Magesterium, causing grievous scandal and offering an insult of infinite degree to God.*

The laity is entitled to a liturgy celebrated in accordance with lawful norms.

Tim

IMHO, I would think someone assaulting and accosting their priest with such accusatory and prejudicial (in its literal sense) questions would themselves be a greater source of scandal than the absence of a genuflection. An “insult of infinite degree” over a genuflection? Speaking for the Magisterium now are we?

Certainly there’s nothing wrong about asking a polite, neutral question to clarify this matter. But not this kind of attack.

 

[timmo]

Hi

Mattapoisett64 said
IMHO, I would think someone assaulting and accosting their priest with such accusatory and prejudicial (in its literal sense) questions would themselves be a greater source of scandal than the absence of a genuflection. An “insult of infinite degree” over a genuflection? Speaking for the Magisterium now are we?

You’ve used some heavy words here : assaulting, accosting, accusatory, prejudicial and scandal.
I certainly did not advise the poster to assault the priest, or accost him either ( whatever nuance you may be putting on the word “accost”).

The questions are direct questions that any real Catholic would have no difficulty in answering. And, remember, they would only be asked in the event, “if he cannot give you an acceptable reason”.
IMHO, only a dissimulator would consider them accusations.

Prejudice (Dictionary.com) - an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Considering that these questions would only be asked in the event “if he cannot give you an acceptable reason” methinks you’re confusing prejudice with common-sense.

Scandal (CCC)- an attitude or behaviour which leads another to do evil. gimme a break

the absence of a genuflection

The absence of a genuflection in this case deserves an explanation.

An “insult of infinite degree” over a genuflection?

In the Latin Rite genuflection is our way of showing latria (adoration reserved for Divinity). Not to genuflect is not to show adoration.
To bow is to show veneration (which we show to Saints and The Altar etc.). So, not to show adoration in this case (“if he cannot give you an acceptable reason” ) could indeed be interpreted as an “insult of infinite degree”.

Speaking for the Magisterium now are we?

No. Just supporting it.

regards
tim

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Hi

You’ve used some heavy words here : assaulting, accosting, accusatory, prejudicial and scandal.
I certainly did not advise the poster to assault the priest, or accost him either ( whatever nuance you may be putting on the word “accost”).

The questions are direct questions that any real Catholic would have no difficulty in answering. And, remember, they would only be asked in the event, “if he cannot give you an acceptable reason”.
IMHO, only a dissimulator would consider them accusations.

Prejudice (Dictionary.com) - an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Considering that these questions would only be asked in the event “if he cannot give you an acceptable reason” methinks you’re confusing prejudice with common-sense.

Scandal (CCC)- an attitude or behaviour which leads another to do evil. gimme a break

The absence of a genuflection in this case deserves an explanation.

In the Latin Rite genuflection is our way of showing latria (adoration reserved for Divinity). Not to genuflect is not to show adoration.
To bow is to show veneration (which we show to Saints and The Altar etc.). So, not to show adoration in this case (“if he cannot give you an acceptable reason” ) could indeed be interpreted as an “insult of infinite degree”.

No. Just supporting it.

regards
tim

I stand by my statements. I believe your fundamental premise (“If he cannot give you an acceptable reason”) puts the questioner in the judicial role - as a layperson - of deciding for themselves what an “acceptable reason” may be. The priest may well have an “acceptable reason” based on his greater liturgical and canonical knowledge and education. How is the layperson to judge that?

I said prejudicial in its “literal sense:” the tenor of those question certainly exhibits pre-judging what is in the priest’s heart and mind.

Scandal: parishoners observing or overhearing a layperson speaking in that manner to the priest, and making what in effect are charges of sacrilige, could very well be scandalized. In its literal sense, as well as in the sense of Gee, maybe it’s OK to talk to a priest that way whenever I disagree with him. Plus, if in your opinion an omitted genuflection - assuming there isn’t a valid reason - is occasion for a “grievous scandal,” how much more scandalous might be a public verbal abuse - as I infer from the tenor of your questions - directed toward the priest.

I can think of things a priest might do that would in fact represent an “infinite degree” of insult. (Ex: desecrating the Eucharist.) An omitted genuflection in the context of an otherwise valid and licitly-performed Mass isn’t one of them.

And finally, I don’t think someone who adopts such an in-your-face approach to a genuflection issue - say, questioning his belief in the Real Presence based on a single gesture - has any basis on which to speak for the Magesterium.

Actually, I would think such behavior by a layperson - prejudicial, scandalous, accusatory, and in general over the top - would be grounds for a canonical action against that parishoner, with exclusion from the Sacraments (excluding Reconciliation) not out of the question.

Maybe my being in a parish touched by the abuse scandal - regarding 2 consecutive pastors - has caused me to save my ammunition for REAL " disobedience to the Magisterium."

 

[eelpis]

I stand by my statements. I believe your fundamental premise (“If he cannot give you an acceptable reason”) puts the questioner in the judicial role - as a layperson - of deciding for themselves what an “acceptable reason” may be. The priest may well have an “acceptable reason” based on his greater liturgical and canonical knowledge and education. How is the layperson to judge that?

I said prejudicial in its “literal sense:” the tenor of those question certainly exhibits pre-judging what is in the priest’s heart and mind.

Scandal: parishoners observing or overhearing a layperson speaking in that manner to the priest, and making what in effect are charges of sacrilige, could very well be scandalized. In its literal sense, as well as in the sense of Gee, maybe it’s OK to talk to a priest that way whenever I disagree with him. Plus, if in your opinion an omitted genuflection - assuming there isn’t a valid reason - is occasion for a “grievous scandal,” how much more scandalous might be a public verbal abuse - as I infer from the tenor of your questions - directed toward the priest.

I can think of things a priest might do that would in fact represent an “infinite degree” of insult. (Ex: desecrating the Eucharist.) An omitted genuflection in the context of an otherwise valid and licitly-performed Mass isn’t one of them.

And finally, I don’t think someone who adopts such an in-your-face approach to a genuflection issue - say, questioning his belief in the Real Presence based on a single gesture - has any basis on which to speak for the Magesterium.

Actually, I would think such behavior by a layperson - prejudicial, scandalous, accusatory, and in general over the top - would be grounds for a canonical action against that parishoner, with exclusion from the Sacraments (excluding Reconciliation) not out of the question.

Maybe my being in a parish touched by the abuse scandal - regarding 2 consecutive pastors - has caused me to save my ammunition for REAL " disobedience to the Magisterium."

I think you are overreacting to timmos post.

Omitting the genuflection after the consecration is a grave matter, and if done without a justified reason it’s can be the source of scandal. Actions speak louder than words.
In the OT God killed those who didn’t follow the rubrics.

 

[Newbie2]

Hi

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (n. 274) is clear. “During Mass three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of host, after the showing of the chalice and before Communion.”

Hopefully this is just ignorance on the part of the priest.
Do not be surprised if you find your complaint is ignored or if you are given misleading reasons.
Questions you might ask the priest, if he cannot give you an acceptable reason, are:

*Why do you refuse to genuflect in adoration to the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that the bread and wine you consecrated are truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it your intention not to offer The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass in the manner required by the Magesterium?

If you refuse to genuflect in adoration at the consecration you are being disobedient to the Magesterium, causing grievous scandal and offering an insult of infinite degree to God.*

The laity is entitled to a liturgy celebrated in accordance with lawful norms.

Tim

A bit too in-your-face, methinks. Laity lecturing clerics on what’s offensive to God? Better idea to talk to the Pastor, I would say, than to make such direct accusations.

 

[timmo]

Mattapoisett64 said
I stand by my statements. I believe your fundamental premise (“If he cannot give you an acceptable reason”) puts the questioner in the judicial role - as a layperson - of deciding for themselves what an “acceptable reason” may be. The priest may well have an “acceptable reason” based on his greater liturgical and canonical knowledge and education. How is the layperson to judge that?

I said prejudicial in its “literal sense:” the tenor of those question certainly exhibits pre-judging what is in the priest’s heart and mind.

Scandal: parishoners observing or overhearing a layperson speaking in that manner to the priest, and making what in effect are charges of sacrilige, could very well be scandalized. In its literal sense, as well as in the sense of Gee, maybe it’s OK to talk to a priest that way whenever I disagree with him. Plus, if in your opinion an omitted genuflection - assuming there isn’t a valid reason - is occasion for a “grievous scandal,” how much more scandalous might be a public verbal abuse - as I infer from the tenor of your questions - directed toward the priest.

I can think of things a priest might do that would in fact represent an “infinite degree” of insult. (Ex: desecrating the Eucharist.) An omitted genuflection in the context of an otherwise valid and licitly-performed Mass isn’t one of them.

And finally, I don’t think someone who adopts such an in-your-face approach to a genuflection issue - say, questioning his belief in the Real Presence based on a single gesture - has any basis on which to speak for the Magesterium.

Actually, I would think such behavior by a layperson - prejudicial, scandalous, accusatory, and in general over the top - would be grounds for a canonical action against that parishoner, with exclusion from the Sacraments (excluding Reconciliation) not out of the question.

Maybe my being in a parish touched by the abuse scandal - regarding 2 consecutive pastors - has caused me to save my ammunition for REAL " disobedience to the Magisterium

My friend
I prepared a comprehensive reply to your post but on reflection I’ve decided to use some discretion and not write something that might further inflame you.
I disagree with you but I do not say you are wrong.

Peace be with you

tim

 

[timmo]

Originally Posted by eelpis
I think you are overreacting to timmos post.

Omitting the genuflection after the consecration is a grave matter, and if done without a justified reason it’s can be the source of scandal. Actions speak louder than words.
In the OT God killed those who didn’t follow the rubrics.

I agree with you and I think you are right.

regards
tim

 

[timmo]

Newbie2 said
A bit too in-your-face, methinks. Laity lecturing clerics on what’s offensive to God? Better idea to talk to the Pastor, I would say, than to make such direct accusations.

A bit too in-your-face, methinks

These are direct questions and should be asked in charity and humility, not in an “in-your-face” manner.
These questions are predicated on “your complaint is ignored or if you are given misleading reasons”.
What would you suggest in such a situation?

Laity lecturing clerics on what’s offensive to God

Do you think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?
Do you think that a cleric would think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?

Better idea to talk to the Pastor

This is the correct way, as stated by Japhy in post 2, if the matter cannot be resolved with the priest. And after the pastor, the Bishop.
However, it might be more charitable, efficient and informative to resolve this at the priest’s level by asking some direct questions and pointing out the consequences of his action.

regards
tim

 

[bilop]

An assistant priest in my parish is not genuflecting after the consecration. He’s young and has no knee problems as he kneels before and after mass. All the other priests in the parish genuflect and the bishop does so too, when celebrating Mass in our church.
Is this an abuse?
If so what is to be done about it?
I must say that I try to stay away from his masses if I can, but I’m not sure that is the best thing to do.
Several fellow parishoners have noticed it and have been a bit taken aback.
What I’m concered with is the seemingly lack of reverence for Our Lord, and the effect that might have on my children.

I think the best thing to do would just be to wait until the young priest gives a sermon you really like. After Mass wait for everyone else to go, and approach him.

Say something like “I really liked your homily today. You point about XXX really made me think of the importance of ZZZ, etc., etc.”

After you discuss that for a minute or two say, “Oh, by the way, I noticed something that confused me. Usually the priest genuflects at the consecration, but you didn’t today. Is there any particular reason?”

Don’t be accusatory, just ask out of curiosity. If he doesn’t mend his ways, then a discussion with the pastor would be warranted.

God Bless