Priest not genuflecting after consecration

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These are direct questions and should be asked in charity and humility, not in an “in-your-face” manner.
These questions are predicated on “your complaint is ignored or if you are given misleading reasons”.
What would you suggest in such a situation?

Speaking with the senior Pastor of the Parish

Do you think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?
Do you think that a cleric would think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?

I don’t see God as a legalistic Pharisee, and not knowing why the priest is not doing so, I don’t know what God would think.

This is the correct way, as stated by Japhy in post 2, if the matter cannot be resolved with the priest. And after the pastor, the Bishop.👍

Agreed.
However, it might be more charitable, efficient and informative to resolve this at the priest’s level by asking some direct questions and pointing out the consequences of his action.

Disagreed. 🤷

regards
tim
 
**
Quote:
Laity lecturing clerics on what’s offensive to God
Do you think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?**

**No, I don’t.

It depends on what’s in the heart.

Eastern Christians (both in union with Rome and not) by and large do NOT genuflect.**
 
I think you are overreacting to timmos post.

Omitting the genuflection after the consecration is a grave matter, and if done without a justified reason it’s can be the source of scandal. Actions speak louder than words.
In the OT God killed those who didn’t follow the rubrics.
Well then he would have slain the last 7 of 8 priests who ministered to my parish because none of them, except the oldest & sickest, genuflected after the consecration.
 
Hi Newbie2

thanks for your reply.

And, No. I don’t see God as a legalistic Pharisee.

regards

tim
 
Hi bpbasilphx
No, I don’t.
It depends on what’s in the heart.
Eastern Christians (both in union with Rome and not) by and large do NOT genuflect.
No, it doesn’t depend on what’s in the heart.
The liturgy is not the property of any individual priest or bishop. I’m sure you understand that the liturgy would be destabilised and degenerate if it were.

We are not talking about Eastern rites. We are talking about Latin Rite norms for the Catholic Church.

regards

tim
 
Hi Phemie

nice to see a little good humour.😛

I’d be really interested to know if any one of those 7 priests gave a reason why they refused to genuflect?

regards

tim
 
Hi Phemie

nice to see a little good humour.😛

I’d be really interested to know if any one of those 7 priests gave a reason why they refused to genuflect?

regards

tim
Let me put it this way, they don’t genuflect, they hand the ciborium around for the EMHCs to help themselves and then receive at the same time as the EMHCs, and they all belong to the same religious congregation (although to be fair, so did the priest who did genuflect and received before anyone else – the difference is that he had been a priest before the 70s)
 
Omitting the genuflection after the consecration is a grave matter, and if done without a justified reason it’s can be the source of scandal. Actions speak louder than words.
In the OT God killed those who didn’t follow the rubrics.
Hi,

I’m glad to see this thread. We have a similar situation in our parish, and I am praying, and waiting for an answer.

One other priest had also done this, and I overheard someone questioning this…can’t remember if to him or someone else. He is now genuflecting—not sure if the bishop was involved in his decision. I personally believe that a pastor’s decision for kneeling will be easily accepted by the bishop for congregation not to kneel or genuflect, but not for himself.

I definitely agree that this must not be taken lightly, but the vatican does not consider posture matters to be grave, therefore I would discuss this very kindly with the priest, in a non-ageressive and non-accusatory manner.

RS states
  1. Graviora Delicta
  1. Graviora delicta against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the Norms Concerning Graviora Delicta Reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,280 namely:
taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;281
the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;282
the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;283
the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.284
2. Grave Matters
  1. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.
Lux
 
Hi Phemie
Let me put it this way, they don’t genuflect, they hand the ciborium around for the EMHCs to help themselves and then receive at the same time as the EMHCs, and they all belong to the same religious congregation (although to be fair, so did the priest who did genuflect and received before anyone else – the difference is that he had been a priest before the 70s)
Thanks for your reply.
In my parish, 4 of 5 priests started this last year. The priests would not give an explanation, the pastor tried to tell me there was a Motu Proprio OKing it. The bishop acknowledged my letter and that was all. Silence - seems to be a hallmark of abuse:rolleyes:
In the last few weeks one of the priests has reverted to genuflecting. TG

regards
tim
 
I would think that the bishop mentioned the rubrics to the parish, in a gentle manner and is hoping the priests will understand that a request from a superior is an order,

Lux
 
**
Quote:
Laity lecturing clerics on what’s offensive to God
Do you think a refusal to genuflect is not offensive to God?**

**No, I don’t.

It depends on what’s in the heart.

Eastern Christians (both in union with Rome and not) by and large do NOT genuflect.**
This is regarding a priest of the Roman rite, in the Latin rite genuflection is a sign of divine worship (most of the time) and a bow is a sign of veneration. Of course no one is judging his heart as we cannot see what’s in it, but actions speak louder than words.

If I as a Roman Catholic get into a Church and refuse to genuflect before the real presence of Christ, I’m making a statement, and that statement speaks volumes.
 
Well then he would have slain the last 7 of 8 priests who ministered to my parish because none of them, except the oldest & sickest, genuflected after the consecration.
Just wait and see…maybe there are some holy souls praying for those priests and suffering for them.
Don’t underestimate the power of prayer and reparation.
 
First, I’d just like to say that I’m a little uncomfortable with threads such as this because I don’t think it’s always a charitable thing to be a member of the “liturgical police.”

I’ve seen so many posts which start out with words such as “Father did such and such at Mass today. Is this an abuse. What should I do?”

I’m uncomfortable with the attitude of judging every little action of a priest when we have no idea or way of knowing why he’s doing or not doing something. (Obviously, I’m not talking about the most flagrant abuses… consecrating a loaf of Wonder Bread for example. 😉 )

That being said, and based on a personal experience, I think the following poster put it best:
I think the best thing to do would just be to wait until the young priest gives a sermon you really like. After Mass wait for everyone else to go, and approach him.

Say something like “I really liked your homily today. You point about XXX really made me think of the importance of ZZZ, etc., etc.”

After you discuss that for a minute or two say, “Oh, by the way, I noticed something that confused me. Usually the priest genuflects at the consecration, but you didn’t today. Is there any particular reason?”

Don’t be accusatory, just ask out of curiosity. If he doesn’t mend his ways, then a discussion with the pastor would be warranted.

God Bless
Many years ago, I attended a Mass where I saw something that nearly made my eyeballs fall out: the celebrant consecrated the bread and wine *TOGETHER. * :eek:

Now, not only had I never seen this done before, at the time I was taking classes in liturgy and knew darn well that this was an extraordinarly BIG no-no.

At the beginning of the Mass, the priest had introduced himself as a summer visitor. After the Mass, I approached him in much the same manner as bilop suggested above. After a moment of welcoming chit-chat, I mentioned to him that I had never seen the consecration performed in the manner in which he had done so, and added that I was under the impression that both species could not be consecrated together.

He stopped to think for a moment with a slightly perplexed look on his face and then he explained that he worked with young people (college chaplain, I think - I don’t remember) and that’s how he always did it. But then he said, “I’ll have to look it up.” Our little talk was very friendly, and in no way confrontational or defensive…

*AND, * I never saw him consecrate like that again.😃 (I guess he really did “look it up.”)

To the OP: Good luck with handling this situation, and let us know what happens. The priest may have some kind of good explanation, or you may be an instrument of encouragement for him; encouragement (a) that there *are * some Catholics who know how things should be and care about the Mass, (b) that you’ve approached him with an attitude of care and concern (you can always ignore that he can genuflect at the beginning and end of Mass and just note that he doesn’t do it at the consecration, and say something like, “I hope you’re not having any back problems, Father. I know how painful that can be.”), and (c) that you will be a help for his priesthood - just in case he has to go back and “look it up.”
 
How about showing some charity towards the priest. He might have knee problems. He might be able to genuflect slowly (which he can do in the entrance procession and in the recessional) but he can’t quickly genuflect like in the consecration and in the fraction. Maybe there is only so much pain that he can endure and since he will be standing a long time between the consecration and the post-communion, he won’t have time to collect himself. There is a huge difference between genuflecting at the processional and recessional (where he can sit soon after) and genuflecting during the consecration (which are right in the middle of the longest part of the Mass for the priest…he still has to do the Memorial Prayer, the Doxology, the Our Father, the Rite of Peace, the Fractioning, distribute communion…its a long time between the consecration and the post-communion.). Priests are human.

Why do we presume that everything is some sinister abuse when there might be some logical reason.
 
Hi,

Although I do agree with charity, I can’t understand how someone could do an unassisted genuflection at the beginning and end of the Mass, but not after the consecration where he could hold onto the altar.

Not able to genuflect is an acceptable reason, but deciding to arbitrarily change the rubics to suit personal preference is wrong.

Lux
 
eelpis quote:
If I as a Roman Catholic get into a Church and refuse to genuflect before the real presence of Christ, I’m making a statement, and that statement speaks volumes.
“The Real Presence of Christ” yes, proceeding the consecration.
Deep and pausing genuflection here.

But, …what about something else ?

eelpis mentions “statement”. I have a question about another action that takes place directly in the same moment of the consecration.

Namely, in light of “statements” in the direct Presence of Jesus (once again) at the consecration, all of the faith-full rise and say “…Christ will come again” (Memorial Acclamation) and then the presider goes on to say “and be ready to greet Him (third person) when He comes again” at the very same time as he is physically posturing over the Sacred Host.

Is this rude ?

Please, I am not trying to be argumentative here but I really do have serious issue with the seemed dichotomy embedded in what should be the most sacred.

Can anyone help my understanding here ?

dj
:eek:
 
do not confront your priest instead pray for him…that God may show him his error…a sanit from the 1900’s gave this advice now if could find the bulletin from on which this post was based i could give the exact name…
…Critcism of Priests…Our Lord’s revalations to Mutter Vogel…One should never atack a priest,even if he is in error.Rather one should pray and do penance that I’ll grant him My grace again.He alone represents Me even when he doesn’t live after my example.(page 29 Mutter Vogel"s worldwide love,St. Grignion piblishin house,south Germany June 29 1929)…"if you see a priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily,then say nothing about him;rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar.Oh pray much for My priests;that they will love purity above all;that they will celebrate the Holy sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it’s celebrated by an unworthy priest,but the grace called down upon the people is not the same (feb 28 1938,Mutter Vogel)…Neer accept an out of the way word about apriest,and speak no unkind word(about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE. Every priest is My vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it.If you hear a judgement(against a priest) pray a Hail Mary(June 28 1939 Mutter Vogel)
 
Hi fbl9
fb19 said …Critcism of Priests…Our Lord’s revalations to Mutter Vogel…One should never atack a priest,even if he is in error.Rather one should pray and do penance that I’ll grant him My grace again.He alone represents Me even when he doesn’t live after my example.(page 29 Mutter Vogel"s worldwide love,St. Grignion piblishin house,south Germany June 29 1929)…"if you see a priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily,then say nothing about him;rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside him on the altar.Oh pray much for My priests;that they will love purity above all;that they will celebrate the Holy sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it’s celebrated by an unworthy priest,but the grace called down upon the people is not the same (feb 28 1938,Mutter Vogel)…Neer accept an out of the way word about apriest,and speak no unkind word(about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE. Every priest is My vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it.If you hear a judgement(against a priest) pray a Hail Mary(June 28 1939 Mutter Vogel)
This information in the bolded statement appears to be in conflict with the teaching of The Catholic Church

CCC1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.” From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

Is what you stated a private revelation approved by The Catholic Church?

From New Advent “When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary to faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them”.

The question of “intention” bolded above in CCC 1128 can give rise to anxiety in some members of the faithful. It does for me.
If a priest, without physical impediment and with full knowledge, obstinately refuses to genuflect in adoration can one say “celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church”.

I’m sure your intentions are good, nevertheless, The Church requires not to ignore what objectively appears to be an abuse.
Of course any action should be done with charity.
Scandal and detraction are serious sins.
And I agree with you that we should pray for our priests, and I do.

regards

tim
 
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