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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Interpreting scripture is best left to the theologians. Do you genuflect at every mention of the name of Jesus?
Lux
Lux
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eelpis
Guest
No, but if I’m serving at the altar of God I bow at the mention of the NAME.
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japhy
Guest
From a presentation I’ll be giving in Advent about Eucharistic Adoration:The Church also prescribes that at the name of “Jesus” (at least in the liturgy), you should bow your head. (GIRM 275a) St. Paul wrote to the Philippians that “at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow” (Philippians 2:10); the second Council of Lyons in 1274 interpreted this command in this way: “whenever that glorious name is recalled, especially during the sacred mysteries of the Mass, everyone should bow the knees of his heart, which he can do even by a bow of his head.”
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GemmaRose
Guest
We were taught in 1st grade (Catholic school, of course… in the '60’s) to bow our heads at the Name of Jesus. Sister would practice with us over and over, calling out all kinds of words starting with “j” and made it kind of like a game so we would be interested. Sometimes, she would pause for a second after the “j” sound, and we would start to bow our heads, and she would say a word other than “Jesus” and she would catch us in mid-head-bow and we all would laugh.
But we did learn to bow our heads at His Holy Name, and I still do it nearly half a century later.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
My head also automatically bows at the name of Jesus. (even as I type), but I do not genuflect.
Since we are discussing genuflection, a scripture which mentions it, but is not usual practice is not a valid argument.
Lux
Since we are discussing genuflection, a scripture which mentions it, but is not usual practice is not a valid argument.
Lux
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
The thead is about priests kneeling after the consecration not about lay kneeling. Please stay on topic, everyone. Take side discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you.
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yablabo
Guest
This “Christ has died…” Memorial Acclamation is apparently a post-1970 thing…which appears that is going to be replaced soon when the new English Liturgy is put into effect by that which ends in “…we proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.”eelpis quote:
“The Real Presence of Christ” yes, proceeding the consecration.
Deep and pausing genuflection here.
But, …what about something else ?
eelpis mentions “statement”. I have a question about another action that takes place directly in the same moment of the consecration.
Namely, in light of “statements” in the direct Presence of Jesus (once again) at the consecration, all of the faith-full rise and say “…Christ will come again” (Memorial Acclamation) and then the presider goes on to say “and be ready to greet Him (third person) when He comes again” at the very same time as he is physically posturing over the Sacred Host.
Is this rude ?
Please, I am not trying to be argumentative here but I really do have serious issue with the seemed dichotomy embedded in what should be the most sacred.
Can anyone help my understanding here ?
dj
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withwind
Guest
Did you ask him why he didn’t genuflect? how about his back? could he have back problem that he might not be able to bend?
My pastor has back problem and I could tell it is painful for him to genuflect.
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OhMalley
Guest
Your line of “questions” are not only terribly inflammatory they seem to ne rooted in what appears to be your own negative personal qualities and not a desire to give reverence to God. I literally winced when I read them because they ultimately ruin other peoples’ chances of having a fruitful conversation with clergy.
It’s pretty much not possible that no genuflection took part based on “just ignorance on the part of the priest.” Priests are far, far more than well educated and trained professionals. They would not be ignorant to this part of the GIRM and you should realize that.
Something else is going on. Maybe the OP missed the genuflection? Maybe the priest was injured or feeling physically horrible on that day/moment? Maybe the priest was so caught up in the celebration of the Mass that he actually forgot? It happens and no it’s not a grave abuse.
If I was a priest and you came at me with your “questions” I would hold my finger up to my own mouth to slience you and I would then walk away. You would owe me an apology as a human before we discussed anything further.
I wish people like you would stop doing what you do. You make it far, far more difficult for those of us with tact and other people skills to approach clergy with honest questions.
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timmo
Guest
.
No doubt I have my fair share of negative qualities. The “questions” appear inflammatory to you, I suspect, because you have not been exposed to this type of abuse by priests. My main concern is reverence for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and his Church.
When you’ve tried the polite way to get a response and you’ve been ignored and/or given false information you might begin to see that there may be some benefit in asking straight unambiguous questions?
I agree.
I agree and I do realize that.
I agree.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
I agree, in the circumstances you state it would not be a grave abuse.
I am not talking about sore knees, weak joints, elderly priests, off-days, or, unfortunately, priests caught up in the celebration of the Mass.
I’m talking of priests who obstinately continue this abuse and many other abuses. Priests who refuse to give us the mass The Church wants us to have and to which we are entitled.
This is a relatively old thread and this abuse persists in my parish: three of the five priests in my parish continue to do it.
I don’t take offense at the tone of your post. You’re obviously blessed with priests who are faithful to the Church.
Unfortunately, abusers do serious damage to The Church, to their fellow priests but also to the souls they are supposed to be shepherding.
Thank God for faithful priests, I appreciate them more than you could understand - it’s not an easy job but the rewards are great. Well done, good and faithful servants …Tim
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Phemie
Guest
I know what you are going through. The only priests in my parish who genuflected were the two who were ordained in the 50s and one very young priest from Poland who, most unfortunately, stopped doing so when he saw the others weren’t.
In the past 5 years, since the last of those retired nobody genuflects at the consecration. It has nothing to do with knees, backs, hips or anything else since both the priests who did genuflect were in their 70s and sick. It has everything to do with not wanting to follow rubrics.
One even decided, out of the blue, to have two very confused EMHCs do the fractionning in his stead at one Mass. Oh he did the intial break and did the co-mingling but then he handed them the two pieces of the concelebration Host and motioned that they should do the breaking into smaller pieces. They’d never been asked to do that before and had deer in the headlight looks.
Mention rubrics to them and you get a sermon on Pharisees.
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timmo
Guest
Hi Phemie
thanks for the empathy you show in your post - greatly appreciated, and I commisserate with you likewise.
The following are some of the main concerns I have regarding this abuse.
When a priest publicly and obstinately refuses to offer latria (adoration) to the consecrated species it gives rise to some questions:
Sacraments in General
Canon 13. If anyone says that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, accustomed to be used in the administration of the sacraments, may be despised or omitted by the ministers without sin and at their pleasure, or may be changed by any pastor of the churches to other new ones, let him be anathema.
Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist
Canon 6. If anyone says that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship of ,[47] also outwardly manifested, and is consequently neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in procession according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy Church, or is not to be set publicly before the people to be adored and that the adorers thereof are idolaters, let him be anathema. (Bold Italics my emphasis)
If there are any faithful and knowledgeable members of Catholic Clergy reading this, your (name removed by moderator)ut would be greatly appreciated.
Tim
thanks for the empathy you show in your post - greatly appreciated, and I commisserate with you likewise.
The following are some of the main concerns I have regarding this abuse.
When a priest publicly and obstinately refuses to offer latria (adoration) to the consecrated species it gives rise to some questions:
- Does The Council of Trent apply?
- Has the priest the proper intention required to make the Sacrament valid?
- should a member of the faithful attend such a Mass?
- should a member of the faithful leave the building when this occurs?
Sacraments in General
Canon 13. If anyone says that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, accustomed to be used in the administration of the sacraments, may be despised or omitted by the ministers without sin and at their pleasure, or may be changed by any pastor of the churches to other new ones, let him be anathema.
Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist
Canon 6. If anyone says that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship of ,[47] also outwardly manifested, and is consequently neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in procession according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy Church, or is not to be set publicly before the people to be adored and that the adorers thereof are idolaters, let him be anathema. (Bold Italics my emphasis)
If there are any faithful and knowledgeable members of Catholic Clergy reading this, your (name removed by moderator)ut would be greatly appreciated.
Tim
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Phemie
Guest
When the only choice is that Mass or no Mass then you opt for Mass. That’s my situation.
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timmo
Guest
At least I have a 2 out of 5 chance of getting a properly celebrated mass, and I maximise the odds by skulking around the Church to see which priests’ cars are present or leave before Mass starts if the priest does some preparatory work on the altar before Mass.
Your situation is most unfortunate. I’ll say a prayer that God will send you a faithful priest.
Tim
Your situation is most unfortunate. I’ll say a prayer that God will send you a faithful priest.
Tim
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Provigil
Guest
EELPIS:
There are many priests who do not genuflect, in stead they bow which is still a sign of reverence. If you know anything about the Byzatine Rite, they also NEVER genuflect, but alays bow.
It is the same way with usd lay=people, a lot of us bow before the Blessed Sacrament in liieu of genuflecting. This is still s sign of reverence.
May Almighty God bless you.
PROVIGIL
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There are many priests who do not genuflect, in stead they bow which is still a sign of reverence. If you know anything about the Byzatine Rite, they also NEVER genuflect, but alays bow.
It is the same way with usd lay=people, a lot of us bow before the Blessed Sacrament in liieu of genuflecting. This is still s sign of reverence.
May Almighty God bless you.
PROVIGIL
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Phemie
Guest
But it is NOT what the Church asks them/us to do. We are the Latin Rite, not the Byzantine Rite therefore the priests should do what the rubrics say to do and not decide which rubrics they choose to follow.
That means that priests should genuflect 3 times during Mass, 5 if the Tabernacle is present in the Sanctuary since he and the various ministers are supposed to genuflect approaching the altar and departing (unless they are carrying something).
Anyone else is supposed to genuflect when passing before the Blessed Sacrament unless they are moving in procession (Communion procession for example).
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Ah, but it can be. Truth can be used to build up or it can be used to tear down. Just because someone is using truth doesn’t always mean they are serving the cause of truth. If my brother cheated on his wife and I bring it up in front of his children, while it may be a true statement, I’m using truth to beat him down in front of others.
In the case being discussed here, being polite and using discretion is the best service to truth.
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timmo
Guest
It is my understanding that dulia denotes reverence and latria denotes adoration?
In The Latin Rite latria is shown by genuflection and dulia by bowing.
If there are many priests and laity who refuse to show adoration to The Blessed Sacrament it might be bad catechesis, bad manners, a disbelief in The Real Presence or something else.
Our Church says adoration is required and stipulates, for Latin Rite priests and laity, genuflection.
Am I incorrect?
Tim
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