Priest response to TLM leaves me stunned

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The subscript is mine.

I was reading really fast. I was startled by your post because this caught my eye. I rolled over laughing. I had to go back and read what you meant. Then I understood. But I had this weird image of someone doing a hand stand. Just a little note of levity to lighten of the topic. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
What about a tiny communicant standing in the palm of someone’s hand…😃
 
You’re exactly right about that. With the formation of all the synods, it perhaps lessened the needs for the bishops of one country to speak to bishops of other countries. The Vatican II collegiality has had its critics for more than one reason.
What Pope John Paul did was to break up the bishops and the international religious orders by language groups. When you have a gathering where there are multiple languages spoken there is now the availability of technology that was not readily available at the Vatican Council and was very expensive at the time.

Today, we use simultaneous translators. Every large organization does it differently. For example, the Franciscan family, which actually has more members than there are bishops (1.7 million) and 114 countries, we have translations for: Latin, French, Spanish, Italian, German, Arabic, and Chinese. Everyone wears a headset. The bishops do the same when they come together. You get a headset with different chanels, one of the chanels is Latin for those who do not speak any of the other languages, which is rare. Writings at the Vatican are immediately translated into draft form. The final edition follows later. You can get the original in Latin and a rough draft in a modern language.

The official language of the Vatican is Italian. Latin is the language of the Church, not the City State. Daily business is conducted in Italian. I’m not sure how they decide when to speak what language. Only official documents are written in Latin, such as Summorum Pontificum. They have teams of linguists to ensure that they are correctly written. They check for grammar, word usage, mechanics of language and fluency, not content. The content is the concern of the author.

Obviously, someone like Pope Benedict, who is a scholar in theology and an older person with many years of experience, is much more fluent in Latin than a young bishop like Archbishop Chaput and whose work is always in English. But there are many bishops, theologians, religious and lay people working at the Vatican and close to the Vatican who can handle the Latin in writing.

My experience has been that it is much more difficult to speak than to read and write it. When I went through theology, I studied Mystical and Ascetical Theology. The classes were in Italian, but many of the old writings were in European languages. When you read the Dessert Fathers and the Fathers of the Church, you read them in Latin or Greek, because most wrote in one or the other. But we had to learn at least two old European languages. This requirement is still in place for certain areas of theology. When I say old European languages, I’m talking about the Spanish of Teresa of Avila, the English of Julian of Norwich or the Italian of Francis of Assisi.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
LOL, I understand and see what you are talking about. I’m sorry about the confusion
The subscript is mine.

I was reading really fast. I was startled by your post because this caught my eye. I rolled over laughing. I had to go back and read what you meant. Then I understood. But I had this weird image of someone doing a hand stand. Just a little note of levity to lighten of the topic. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It is perfectly fine. That question was rhetorical, because I knew you wouldn’t answer it anyway. I did that in hopes of proving a point, which I did. God Bless
You just expressed a few posts ago how dismayed you were that a poster spoiled your new thread. Are you not doing the same thing here to the OP by injecting personal antipathies that are way off topic? I won’t dignify them by commenting, because to refute you would require a book and take it further off topic.

What’s good for the goose, is not good for the gander, apparently.
 
LOL, I understand and see what you are talking about. I’m sorry about the confusion
Here is my thinking. True holiness is measured by one’s ability to laugh in the midst of dialogue. A sour faced saint is a suspiscious saint. 😛

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Here is my thinking. True holiness is measured by one’s ability to laugh in the midst of dialogue. A sour faced saint is a suspiscious saint. 😛

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Wasn’t it Theresa of Avila who said “God save me form sour faced saints!”? (Or something like it)
 
Well, Communion in the hand is an exception to the rule yet that seems to have become the de facto norm quick enough.

What language considerations other than the priest learning the universal language of the Church. I’ve read that at V2 the bishops from around the world spoke to each other fluently. That wouldn’t happen today and we’re supposed to be a global institution.
The conditions of the indult is that permission to receive CITH must be granted by the Vatican. Once a territory receives permission, anyone is then free to use it without any restrictions until the indult is suspended or retracted.
 
Wasn’t it Theresa of Avila who said “God save me form sour faced saints!”? (Or something like it)
Teresa had no use for people who took themselves and their positions too seriously. That really plucked her last nerve. She said that when someone criticized her for laughing at mass.

She was not alone in this feeling. St. Philip Neri was such a cook (in the good sense) the his confreres often got annoyed with him. The more annoyed they became, the more he would tease. His argument was that one could not gain heaven without a sense of humor.

Blessed John XXIII was another of those saints who had zero tolerance for the serious face or for those rules that did not allow for laughter and humanity to shine forth. He had a good command of wit. When I was a student friar I had an entire course on his writings. There are two stories that will always remain with me.

It was the custom for the pope to eat alone. No one really knows when this began. The sisters who served his food were concerned because he was not eating. They reported their concern to his secretary. One evening, the secretary entered the papal dining room and fond him reading the Bible and not eating. He asked him if the food was not to his liking. John said, “I’m not sure yet. I have not tasted it. I’m busy trying to find where in the Bible does it say that Peter had to eat alone.” From that day forward the secretary made sure that Pope John had company for dinner.

When he was working in France as Cardinal Roncalli, he was invited to a state dinner with the President and wife. At the end of the meal, fruit was served. He offered the first lady an apple. She graciously decline. He insisted and she declined. He continued to insist. Exasperated, the first lady asked him, “Your Eminence, why do you insist that I eat an appel?”

Pope John pointed to her plunging neckline and said, “Madam, it was not until Eve ate the apple that she realized that she was naked.”

God has raised up our saints to teach us how to live and cope with life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am saying that a priest could hide as much as he cared to with only pre-adolescent altar boys nearby to hear (some of) the words. However, I don’t wish to give the impression that I consider the rite itself flawed, or that I don’t realize that there were many priests who celebrated it in a worthy fashion. My comments should be taken as pointing to a history, gradually being forgotten, of the Novus Ordo having originally been its own way of dealing with what was perceived by educated men, fine priests and bishops, to have been its own kind of abuse. That’s not the whole story, but IMO it does help explain why so many bishops over the years have said, “Never in my diocese.”
This leads to a disturbing question, could it be possible that a lot of priest may have either mispronounced or add lib ed words to the mass back in the old days and no one ever knew? Would this mean that a good number of these masses were invalid? Certainly gives one pause considering how much some people grumble about the OF being done poorly (Or invalidly).
 
This leads to a disturbing question, could it be possible that a lot of priest may have either mispronounced or add lib ed words to the mass back in the old days and no one ever knew? Would this mean that a good number of these masses were invalid? Certainly gives one pause considering how much some people grumble about the OF being done poorly (Or invalidly).
Wrong.

Do you still promote married clergy?
 
This leads to a disturbing question, could it be possible that a lot of priest may have either mispronounced or add lib ed words to the mass back in the old days and no one ever knew? Would this mean that a good number of these masses were invalid? Certainly gives one pause considering how much some people grumble about the OF being done poorly (Or invalidly).
Not too likely on the adlibs. Or about as likely as adlibbing the Latin NO. Since few really understand the spoken Latin, what good would it have done? And besides, the servers are trained to pick up on certain rubrics and spoken words so a significant deviation of the text/rubrics would have easily confused them.
 
Here is my thinking. True holiness is measured by one’s ability to laugh in the midst of dialogue. A sour faced saint is a suspiscious saint. 😛

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
When I was an evangelical preacher I had a series of sermons on the fruit of the Spirit, one of which was the fruit of joy. It always fascinated me that St. Paul always spoke of being in great distress, yet ‘always rejoicing’. The key is understanding the difference between ‘happiness’. from the old english word ‘hap’ which means luck, and true joy.
My ‘happiness’ is based on my circumstances. My ‘joy’ comes from above, so it is not moved by circumstances.
 
When I was an evangelical preacher I had a series of sermons on the fruit of the Spirit, one of which was the fruit of joy. It always fascinated me that St. Paul always spoke of being in great distress, yet ‘always rejoicing’. The key is understanding the difference between ‘happiness’. from the old english word ‘hap’ which means luck, and true joy.
My ‘happiness’ is based on my circumstances. My ‘joy’ comes from above, so it is not moved by circumstances.
I strongly believe that as we muddle through all of these questions and concerns there is a temptation to become sour faced saints. Muddle we must, in order to ge to the other side. But we can do it without becoming so intense that we lose our joy.

One thing that I have always seen is that when people become very intense about an ideal, intense to the point that they have no patients with others, fail to see humor in the middle of a situation, or are not interested in anything but their cause, they begin to fall short in the practice of virtue. There is a danger of taking oneself so seriously that one fails to take the other person seriously. Humor helps us to come back to reality.

In discussions of subjects such as this, where people can become very intense, it is important to notice when something funny happens. One has to be careful not to laugh at the expense of another. That would be uncharitable.

We all want to find solutions to the whole CITH/COTT/OF/EF and other differences. Solutions will come, in God’s time. But in our time, we must be able to wait, work slowly, and acknowledge the little joyful consolations that God puts before us.

I have always loved something that St. Francis did when he was troubled. He would take two sticks, go before the Blessed Sacrament and pretend to play a violin and dance before the tabernacle. Once he was asked if that was reverent. He answered, that he did not know if it was or was not. But he knew that God enjoyed his foolishness. I’ve always thought that response was awesome.

Let’s keep talking, but remember that there are times when we do and say silly things and those can be moments to laugh. God does enjoy our foolishness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This leads to a disturbing question, could it be possible that a lot of priest may have either mispronounced or add lib ed words to the mass back in the old days and no one ever knew? Would this mean that a good number of these masses were invalid? Certainly gives one pause considering how much some people grumble about the OF being done poorly (Or invalidly).
I don’t know if the number would be that great. I do believe that it is possible, because I have seen it. I have never seen an invalid mass. I have seen the mumbling and slurring over the Latin. Every priest that I have ever met has been very careful to say the words of consecration correctly. I cannot say that I have ever seen that done incorrectly. I have seen the cluttering of words so that you’re not sure what you heard. I have seen the mispronunciation of other words. And I have seen the slurring through so quickly that it could have been anything said.

When there was only mass in Latin, one of the comment statements that people made about the daily 6:30 am mass – was that it took 15 minutes. If the words are properly said and the mood is properly meditative, it should take longer than 15 minutes.

To say that there was nothing wrong in the past is more wishful thinking than reality. Human nature is what it is. It does not change, because you change the form of the mass or its language. Let’s keep that in mind. A priest who celebrates a mass prayerfully in one language, will do so in another. A priest who is sloppy in one language will be sloppy in another.

We celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin. In some of our houses, it’s beautifully celebrated and in other houses it leaves you in shock. You feel like you just rode the shuttle between Times Square and Grand Central Station. :eek:

Language does not always change the manner of the individual.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This leads to a disturbing question, could it be possible that a lot of priest may have either mispronounced or add lib ed words to the mass back in the old days and no one ever knew? Would this mean that a good number of these masses were invalid? Certainly gives one pause considering how much some people grumble about the OF being done poorly (Or invalidly).
**I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. **The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.
The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?
Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.
My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.
My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.
Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!
Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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At_Trent:
That was very beautiful. Thanks for sharing it.

What I most loved about it is that Father does not point fingers at people. He sets out to share the spirituality that he finds in the EF. His story is inspiring and so is his gentle manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The conditions of the indult is that permission to receive CITH must be granted by the Vatican. Once a territory receives permission, anyone is then free to use it without any restrictions until the indult is suspended or retracted.
The indult puts the authority with the bishop. It may be withdrawn anytime he feels fit. I believe Peru withdrew it recently.
 
The indult puts the authority with the bishop. It may be withdrawn anytime he feels fit. I believe Peru withdrew it recently.
Couldn’t the Vatican just withdraw their Recognito? Since its also a pre-requisite to the approval of the indult.
 
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