Priest response to TLM leaves me stunned

[HCC]

Dear rben20,

Recently, I found a great site that listed step-by-step procedures of how to get EF Mass in one’s parish. It is a wonderful resource, unfortunately, I didn’t bookmark it and now can’t find it. I will keep searching.

I know you need a “stable group” and it would help to be a member of THAT parish. If the priest is unwilling you take it to the bishop, then the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. It is a process.

My suggestion is, get in touch with people online who have done it and I’ll keep looking for that site. Meanwhile, pray, pray, pray! Don’t be discouraged–you have God, Our Lady, all the saints, your angel and the Holy Father on your side!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Of course it could. Let’s pray that happens soon.

I always pray for what’s best, without being so specific. God knows whats best, I don’t.

 

[rben20]

Dear rben20,

Recently, I found a great site that listed step-by-step procedures of how to get EF Mass in one’s parish. It is a wonderful resource, unfortunately, I didn’t bookmark it and now can’t find it. I will keep searching.

I know you need a “stable group” and it would help to be a member of THAT parish. If the priest is unwilling you take it to the bishop, then the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. It is a process.

My suggestion is, get in touch with people online who have done it and I’ll keep looking for that site. Meanwhile, pray, pray, pray! Don’t be discouraged–you have God, Our Lady, all the saints, your angel and the Holy Father on your side!

Thank you HCC. I will surely look forward to that site you found. I’m doing my best, but I am slowly bringing people along…people with more connections and knowledge about the process than me so it seems it is moving in the right direction.

 

[HCC]

Ok…found it:

unavoce.org/s-p-resources/requesting-tlm-post-sp/

If you are trying to get a “stable group” together why not: hobnob with people after prayer groups and talk it up, take a small ad out in your local Catholic newspaper stating you are looking for others who would regularly attend Mass in the EF in your diocese, if they won’t allow that, try the local paper classifieds (the cost of the ad shouldn’t be terribly expensive), start a “Do You Want Mass In Laredo, TX” thread here on CAF, place an ad on Craigslist–couldn’t hurt. You need as many as possible to support your case.

If people balk at sending a letter, remind them they are doing nothing wrong (they aren’t trying to cause trouble or be disobedient) and this is the proper procedure of requesting an EF Mass, as stated by the Holy Father.

---

Now 2 interesting stories to remind you not to give up:

In the 1990s I was discerning a vocation and became close to a group of monks. The monks ran a prestigious boys school and also a wealthy parish. The monks were secularly well educated, but a modernist, rebellious, elitist and entitled spirit prevailed there. They seemed to mock their devout congregants.

One night, after dinner, while I was visiting, somehow we got on the topic of the Latin Mass. The room roared with groans and sighs, almost hisses. They made fun of people who attended TLM and said with absolute assurance that the only people who went there were fringe wackos who were either mentally ill or so poorly educated they just gravitated toward that kind of shmaltz. I realized then, if joining meant hiding my faith and devotion, this was not the place for me.

Fast forward 10 years…

A couple years ago the monks founded an oratory exclusively for TLM and all rites performed in the EF. Apparently, too, in the monastery, reverence and beauty in their liturgies and vestments has been increasing.

You have no idea–I NEVER thought I’d see the day. God’s ways are not our ways, so pray and be patient-and show charity.

The second story…

There was a beautiful church I visited in St Louis in 1993 called St Francis de Sales. A friend and I popped in and we spoke to the pastor who showed us around. We mentioned how beautiful it would be to have the Latin Mass there and he said, “It will never happen here!”

Oh really??? Never say never, padre!

See here:

institute-christ-king.org/stlouis/

So, moral of the story–keep up the good work you’re doing and have a lot of faith!

May God bless you!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Or the other way to get a stable group together is go parish hopping and get to meet people from other parishes. The last few weeks I’ve met people from other parishes who were visitng our parish. Ads may not get to as many people. If your parish priest is supportive, have it advertised on the parish bulletin. Ask other parish priests if they are willing to provide you some space on their bulletin as well.

 

[At_Trent]

That was very beautiful. Thanks for sharing it.

What I most loved about it is that Father does not point fingers at people. He sets out to share the spirituality that he finds in the EF. His story is inspiring and so is his gentle manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, it is moving to read. Fr is 94 now I think. My first EF after returning to the Church was at St Martin of Tours in Louisville Ky where he prays the Mass. I was fighting back tears before the Prayers At The Foot Of the Altar had begun. And that day it was a Missa Cantata ! And oh what a sermon ! I had to google his name as soon as I got home, and I found that letter he wrote. Fr is a Saint, of that I am sure. One Sunday, there was no deacon and Fr had to give Communion to about 250 or so. He looked exhausted, but carried on and chanted the Last Gospel as if he were in his 20’s.

Fr was in Bermuda for 30 years until asked by the Archbishop there to leave because he was too traditional. He returned to the States and his superior told him to do what he wanted. He prayed to Mary for guidance and soon received a call from someone at St Martins asking he pray the TLM there. (pre-SP)

St Martins is a wonderful old parish with quite a history and 2 of only 3 full skeletal remains of Saints entombed under the side altars.Sts Bonosa and Magnus. St Magnus’ Feast Day is today as a matter of fact and if I had known that, I’d have been at the EF this morning. I’m sure Fr Charles prayed the Mass. (I looked at the bulletin when I got went to the parisk site to get the link)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Nice video on the home page and please take a look at the Art and Architecture sections.

louisville-catholic.net/

Nice photo of the church and brief history here

archlou.org/article125640.htm?img=1&imgsize=large&imgalign=right&wraptext=1&body=1

Fr Charles did not pray Mass this day, but here is Fr Paul at St Martins. Archbishop Kurtz attended

youtube.com/watch?v=2XJJEp1Cpm0&feature=search

And as a Fransiscan, you may enjoy this

youtube.com/watch?v=P4j36rZYVSE&feature=related

 

[revert_jen]

You can’t ask the pastor to bump 500 for 100 parishioners. That’s not allowed even by the Holy Father’s decree.

Just a point about this particular argument: This argument does not work in general, and I don’t think it’s a particularly good argument at all.

To show what is wrong with this argument, I can mention that the Spanish Mass at my old parish never had even 30% of the attendance that would have been there had it been in English. (I know this for sure, because they switched the Masses around at one point, so we had experience of Masses at the exact same time on Sunday, that for some years was in Spanish, and for some other years was in English. I understand enough Spanish to get through the Mass, although I didn’t catch all of the homily, so I had experience with both Masses. There definitely were at least three times as many people at the Mass when it was in English–probably more, but I never counted them. And some of the people who were attending were like me–native English speakers who had overslept. )

Given the quoted argument, the parish shouldn’t have had a Mass in Spanish, because there were so many more people who wanted to attend in English.

In addition, unlike the OP’s situation with the EF, there are several other parishes within 20 miles of that parish that also offer (under-attended) Mass in Spanish.

Now, I’m not saying that the parish should not have offered Mass in Spanish. And at the same time, I also say that people shouldn’t be refused access to any EF at all, just because they can’t come up with as many people as would be attending an OF Mass. It would be difficult to find any parish, which has not offered an EF Mass in 40 years, that had enough people who wanted the EF Mass to equal (or even come near) the attendance at an OF Mass. So, by that logic, the EF should never be offered.

If you say that the parish shouldn’t have had a Spanish Mass, then I disagree, but it is consistent. But if you say yes that the parish should have had a Spanish Mass, but the OP’s parish shouldn’t have an EF Mass, you basically are saying that it doesn’t relate to numbers at all, but how much you like (or dislike) the EF.

I’m not saying that there are no valid reasons for the Pastor to refuse to have an EF Mass, just that that particular reason is not very good.

–Jen

 

[JReducation]

The indult puts the authority with the bishop. It may be withdrawn anytime he feels fit. I believe Peru withdrew it recently.

Was that the entire Peruvian conference or just the Archbishop of Lima? There are dioceses in South America that do have never had the indult. I was a missionary in the Archdiocese of Guayaquil, which is very large, about four million. It did not have the indult. However, there were many foreigners who came through there, because it’s a big business center. Many came from places where communion on the hand was allowed. They quietly and reverently put out their craddled hands and the priest and deacon would give them communion without saying anything. There is always something called common sense. You don’t create a situation when it’s unnecessary to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Just a point about this particular argument: This argument does not work in general, and I don’t think it’s a particularly good argument at all.

To show what is wrong with this argument, I can mention that the Spanish Mass at my old parish never had even 30% of the attendance that would have been there had it been in English. (I know this for sure, because they switched the Masses around at one point, so we had experience of Masses at the exact same time on Sunday, that for some years was in Spanish, and for some other years was in English. I understand enough Spanish to get through the Mass, although I didn’t catch all of the homily, so I had experience with both Masses. There definitely were at least three times as many people at the Mass when it was in English–probably more, but I never counted them. And some of the people who were attending were like me–native English speakers who had overslept. )

Given the quoted argument, the parish shouldn’t have had a Mass in Spanish, because there were so many more people who wanted to attend in English.

In addition, unlike the OP’s situation with the EF, there are several other parishes within 20 miles of that parish that also offer (under-attended) Mass in Spanish.

Now, I’m not saying that the parish should not have offered Mass in Spanish. And at the same time, I also say that people shouldn’t be refused access to any EF at all, just because they can’t come up with as many people as would be attending an OF Mass. It would be difficult to find any parish, which has not offered an EF Mass in 40 years, that had enough people who wanted the EF Mass to equal (or even come near) the attendance at an OF Mass. So, by that logic, the EF should never be offered.

If you say that the parish shouldn’t have had a Spanish Mass, then I disagree, but it is consistent. But if you say yes that the parish should have had a Spanish Mass, but the OP’s parish shouldn’t have an EF Mass, you basically are saying that it doesn’t relate to numbers at all, but how much you like (or dislike) the EF.

I’m not saying that there are no valid reasons for the Pastor to refuse to have an EF Mass, just that that particular reason is not very good.

–Jen

I see where you’re coming from. The difference here is that a Canon Lawyer would argue that the Tridentine form is extraordinary. In Church law, the term “extraordinary” is applied for very good reason. It allows bishops and religious superiors the freedom to make judgement calls. One would even say, flexibility. It does not bind them in a rigid situation.

A canon lawyer would argue that the mass in the ordinary form in Spanish, Korean, Creole, etc, is not extraordinary, because these people have had this before arriving. The fact that they are immigrants is very different from a preference for the EF. The immirgrant’s ordinary language is . . . whatever it is. The EF is a preference, not the usual for the person making the request.

Once the Vatican applies the term “extraordinary” to anything, it means that it is not the common thing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[utah_rose]

Hello my Catholic brethren,

I am doing my best to start up a TLM in my city. I’ve done enough searching as far as a proper church, music department, but I just officially started to ask the priests on my list the possibility of them holding the Mass. I scoped out possible priests to say the Mass (those who I know are familiar or know Latin) and the first priest I chose to ask was my new pastoral priest at my local church. When I asked Father about the possibility of having a TLM, he answered “do you know Latin?” to which I simply said, “no but I am learning.” He basically told me why would I want a TLM if I have a Mass in the vernacular. He also brushed it off by saying that he needed the mandate of a bishop (I thought we didn’t need that anymore according to Pope Benedict XVI?) and killed it just like that. I feel really discouraged as this is coming from a PRIEST let alone it is the first one I ask. I am afraid everyone else thinks like him…that it is simply a language issue when really this is about Catholic teaching and theology expressed fully in the TLM…IMHO. Besides, Latin wasn’t a problem for thousands of years, so why would it be all of the sudden…it is still the official language of the Church last time I checked??? I didn’t tell him any of that of course as I was too disheartened and felt I would alienate him even more than he already felt about it. Why is it that priests just aren’t taking advantage of the Moto Propio? If you asked a priest about having a TLM at your parish, did you ever get a similar response? Seems like the first Latin priest is off my list.

No, the Bishop does not have to approve a TLM Mass. Your priest sounds like the priests at our parish. Our pastor will do a Spanish Mass, but not a Latin. Our assistant pastor is also lukewarm to the idea. I would however before you ask anymore, to try and get a group of people that want this TLM Mass, because I understand that is the requisite.

However, one parish (thank God) does have a TLM every Sunday afternoon AND Saturday morning. The pastor is a Polish priest who didn’t know Latin but learned the Mass because people were begging for it. I understand that the Bishop of our diocese doesn’t think very kindly of this Mass either, and he was trying to persuade this priest to do a Spanish Mass but he refused on the grounds that people were asking for a TLM Mass.

I have no problem with the new Mass IF it is said reverently and conducted like that, but the Masses at our parish treat it as if the priest is the main character rather than the Eucharist. As a result, we have been attending the TLM Mass more frequently, because he does say it reverently and besides has a Holy Hour before the Mass AND confessions a half hour before.

 

[utah_rose]

This is a bit of a tricky situation. While no permission is needed, if the Bishop has forbidden it, the priest is in the precarious position of facing disobedience. Our Archbishop stated that no parish will be allowed to offer the EF Mass, other than those where the indult was given pre-MP, without his express permission. That put all the priests in our diocese in a bind even if they want to offer the EF Mass.

I don’t know for sure, but it may not be the priest as much as his environment.

If your Bishop has forbidden it, he is in the wrong. If I were in your diocese, I would write a letter to the Papa; Nuncio explaining your Bishop’s actions, because he is disobeying the Pope. The Papal Nuncio has power over the Bishops and perhaps he can either change your Bishop’s mind or report him to the Vatican.

 

[HCC]

Hello everyone,

I’m sorry to hear that people are having trouble getting the EF of Holy Mass in their parishes. Remain hopeful, be patient and don’t forget to do everything in Charity!

This is the best advice I have read for getting the EF Mass in one’s parish:

unavoce.org/s-p-resources/requesting-tlm-post-sp/

Just thought I’d share and you will all be in my prayers.

God bless your efforts!:knight2:

 

[JReducation]

No, the Bishop does not have to approve a TLM Mass. Your priest sounds like the priests at our parish. Our pastor will do a Spanish Mass, but not a Latin. Our assistant pastor is also lukewarm to the idea. I would however before you ask anymore, to try and get a group of people that want this TLM Mass, because I understand that is the requisite.

However, one parish (thank God) does have a TLM every Sunday afternoon AND Saturday morning. The pastor is a Polish priest who didn’t know Latin but learned the Mass because people were begging for it. I understand that the Bishop of our diocese doesn’t think very kindly of this Mass either, and he was trying to persuade this priest to do a Spanish Mass but he refused on the grounds that people were asking for a TLM Mass.

I have no problem with the new Mass IF it is said reverently and conducted like that, but the Masses at our parish treat it as if the priest is the main character rather than the Eucharist. As a result, we have been attending the TLM Mass more frequently, because he does say it reverently and besides has a Holy Hour before the Mass AND confessions a half hour before.

I’m going to disagree with you on a tiny point and it’s a tiny disagreement. Please don’t be upset. I believe that the way you wordid your answer is not precise.

If the priest is a secular priest, he can celebrate the EF without permission. However, the bishop is still the pastor. The bishop does have the authority and right to deny anything that he believes to be a conflict or a problem in his parishes. There has to be a coordination between the local pastor and the bishop.

This is rarely an issue. None of the bishops that I know would be upset about the EF being celebrated, because the priests who would be willing to do it are not the kind of guys who would do it in a manner that would create a great sacrifice for the parish or the diocese. I’ll just use a simple example in a neighboring parish. That particular parish has two priests and four masses. If they changed on mass to the EF it would not sacrifice anyone. The people can attend the other three in the OF.

Now, take a parish with one priest and (let’s say) two masses. If those two OF masses are needed, because the church does not accommodate more than X number of people for one mass, then the bishop has the authority to intervene and say that this not possible at this time. He is not forbidding the EF. He is protecting the resources available.

I must add here, that the rules are not clear. Therefore, those of us who are in pastoral care may differ in our understanding of the Motu Propio, because it does not cover every possible situation that can arise. You often have to figure it out on your own.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[revert_jen]

A canon lawyer would argue that the mass in the ordinary form in Spanish, Korean, Creole, etc, is not extraordinary, because these people have had this before arriving. The fact that they are immigrants is very different from a preference for the EF. The immirgrant’s ordinary language is . . . whatever it is. The EF is a preference, not the usual for the person making the request.

Understood, but in practice your advice goes against the ability of anyone to attend the EF Mass anywhere, unless there is already a very large number of people, most of whom have never attended an EF Mass (median age in the US is under 40), who want to attend the EF. This seems to go against the Holy Father’s intentions. I’m not saying that a priest cannot refuse to say the EF Mass for good reason, just that “not as many people will attend it as would be at an OF Mass” is not by itself a good enough reason.

I would be surprised if Canon Law required Pastors to schedule Mass in languages that are not the predominant language of the parish. I’m sure they are encouraged to do so, but not required. Pretty much like they are encouraged to offer an EF Mass but not required to do that, either. However, IANACL.

–Jen

 

[Jerry_Parker]

rben,

You wrote: ** When I asked Father about the possibility of having a TLM, he answered “do you know Latin?” to which I simply said, “no but I am learning.” He basically told me why would I want a TLM if I have a Mass in the vernacular…* I feel really discouraged as this is coming from a PRIEST let alone it is the first one I ask. I am afraid everyone else thinks like him – that it is simply a language issue when really this is about Catholic teaching and theology expressed fully in the TLM – IMHO. Besides, Latin wasn’t a problem for thousands of years, so why would it be all of the sudden – it is still the official language of the Church last time I checked?*​

Yee-ee-eesh, how tiring such canards and false stereotypes as these are (those which that priest expressed, parrotting so many others)! You know, though, that many priests do not have a first-hand knowledge of the Latin Mass, whether in the Latin of the *Novus Ordo *(N.O., which is not merely a vernacular form of the Mass) or of the Traditional Latin Mass (T.L.M.). Nor do most laity now, unless they are at least in their sixties (as I am, at 67) as older priests who practised the Latin Mass would be so aged also. However, centuries of experience indicates that this present unfamiliarity should not pose a barrier against the Latin Mass.

As you say, “Latin wasn’t a probelm for thousands of years” neither for laity or clergy. The reason is that when one assists at the Latin Mass, one quickly comes to understand and to remember it; the fact that it is so beautiful helps to sink it deeply into the memory. Ecclesiastical Latin is not the complex affair that Classical Latin is. It is more beautiful and more natural, with fewer grammatical complexities most of the time, from how the Church had come to use Latin, avoiding the artificialities of Classical Latin as the secular Renaissance transformed Latin into something more cramped, pedantic, and rebarbative.

In pre-N.O. days the laity said the responses and sang the Gregorian chants with a vigour and assurance that I almost never have experienced since the N.O. mostly displaced the T.L.M. I caught on quickly to the Latin Mass (1962 and 1965 editions of the Missale Romanum) when I first came to the Catholic Church. (I became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church in no small part from revulsion at the vernacular Mass, the trite music contrived for it, and all the abuses abuses of this kind of Mass. I did study Latin a couple of years after my initial conversion, but I already knew the Latin of the liturgy so well, that the basic academically acquired knowledge of Latin really did not make so much of a difference as one might have expected for it to do.

No, the priest’s banter was that of someone uninformed, probably prejudiced, too. Do not let him discourage you! You know better, and, thank God, so does Pope Benedict XVI.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[roadsend]

…
Once the Vatican applies the term “extraordinary” to anything, it means that it is not the common thing.
…

Kind of like Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Because the Church has labeled them as “Extraordinary”, most of us hardly ever see them used?

 

[benedictgal]

If your Bishop has forbidden it, he is in the wrong. If I were in your diocese, I would write a letter to the Papa; Nuncio explaining your Bishop’s actions, because he is disobeying the Pope. The Papal Nuncio has power over the Bishops and perhaps he can either change your Bishop’s mind or report him to the Vatican.

Actually, the Papal Nuncio is not the point of contact here, it is the Ecclesia Dei Commission which is now under the auspices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. That is the remedy given.

 

[1234]

Actually, no; what Corki describes seems like a somewhat hardline but entirely plausible understanding of SP, specifically Article 5 § 1:
In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.
Note that the language you paraphrased previously, indicating that “the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary” to celebrate the TLM, applies only to “Masses celebrated without the people,” not to scheduled parish Masses.

At best, this is matter for a dubium; there’s really not a whiff of “open rebellion” in what Corki has recounted. If the bishop, guiding his pastors, accounts for the needs of stable groups of TLM adherents, that’s what the* motu proprio* requires.

This is the only actual quotation I have found in this long thread which describes the pope’s own words, or approved words (in English) about the performance of the Latin or Roman Rite. I have emphasized it in bold.

Note the reference to “a stable group of faithful”–the OP sounds as if he’s trying to re-introduce the Latin mass solo in his parish. Also references to the welfare of this group harmonizing with the welfare of the group–the parish–as a whole, all of it under the guidance of the bishop and* avoiding discord and favoring unity.
*

I don’t hear any of this in the subsequent posts. Is there a stable group of faithful wishing this? Does and can the bishop support it, stretching further the resources he has, requiring older priests or himself to provide this service, after appropriate refreshing? Is the bishop doing this to avoid discord and favor unity?

No doubt the Latin mass can be beautiful. However, people at my advanced age, recall clearly how it was performed most of the time I attended mass: very fast; inaudible; unable to be followed even if you knew Latin, which I did; perfunctory, priests smoking outside before mass. Uninvolved congregations, saying the rosary, leaving immediately after communion, few responses, as they couldn’t follow the rapid mumbling.

How would the Latin mass go over in Africa and Asia with native languages not based on Latin? How do you unite the entire church–with Latin, a language incomprehensible to the vast majority of them, who already have to learn other non-native languages to survive, like English?

 

[ProVobis]

No, the Bishop does not have to approve a TLM Mass. Your priest sounds like the priests at our parish. Our pastor will do a Spanish Mass, but not a Latin. Our assistant pastor is also lukewarm to the idea. I would however before you ask anymore, to try and get a group of people that want this TLM Mass, because I understand that is the requisite.

Actually a bishop need not approve any Latin in the OF either, although all-Latin OF might keep many away. I see quite a few bi-lingual (other than Latin) Masses these days; I don’t know how much is required of the bishop to say these though.

 

[ProVobis]

No doubt the Latin mass can be beautiful. However, people at my advanced age, recall clearly how it was performed most of the time I attended mass: very fast; inaudible; unable to be followed even if you knew Latin, which I did; perfunctory, priests smoking outside before mass. Uninvolved congregations, saying the rosary, leaving immediately after communion, few responses, as they couldn’t follow the rapid mumbling.

Rest assured. Those saying and attending the EF are on their best behavior now.

How would the Latin mass go over in Africa and Asia with native languages not based on Latin? How do you unite the entire church–with Latin, a language incomprehensible to the vast majority of them, who already have to learn other non-native languages to survive, like English?

You’re probably right but it’s sort of ironic since the Latin Mass flourished in Africa and helped spread the faith when it started becoming the norm for the most of the Western world in the early centuries.