Priest says morally licit to use the Pill to augment couple’s use of NFP
- Status
F
fix
Guest
Yes, so my point is as long as the intent is not to sterilize and there is a legitimate serious need then it would be licit.
This talk is very different from those who advocate condoms or direct sterilization procedures.
The intention and the means would be licit. Why are the means licit? Because the use is to treat a medical pathology, not prevent some potential pathology. The unintended bad consequence, sterility, would be permissible by double effect.
The abortifacient potential adds another variable that needs to be addressed.
My other point is in regard to things like NaPro and such that I think are right on target. Because there are experts who claim these treatments are superior to the traditional pill is that enough to claim a Catholic is bound only to such treatments or may they avail themselves of the pill because other experts claim it is more medically correct?
M
mikew262
Guest
I’ve already quoted 2 sources that say different. BTW, did anybody say the pill cures anything?
J
Jennifer_J
Guest
You read none of the posts about how the pill works, did you?
Your sources are using “regulate” in a dishonest way. If you actually STUDY how the woman’s cycle works and how the pill works (I linked to the pill info, btw), then you will see that the pill chemically mimics pregnancy for a woman. When the placebo pills are taken, a woman BLEEDS, but it’s call withdrawal bleeding and in NO WAY is a normal, natural period. The way the pill regulates is that you take the chemical hormones and your body is tricked for 21 days then you take the placebo pills and your body bleeds from the withdrawal of the hormones. Nothing is “regulated”, nothing in the woman’s body is healed, nothing changes when she comes off the pill. The 28 day cycle with a bleed was a marketing technique so that women knew they weren’t pregnant–nothing more.
The contention is taking the pill will “cure” a woman of irregular periods and that is not true. The pill masks symptoms and cures nothing.
Jennifer
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
Mike I see nothing wrong with your posts nor the Priest comments in the OP. I have spent some time reading several of the references. Frankly they poorly written and there seems to be an extensive pattern of missing data, embellishment, and contradiction. In this very thread you may read over and over how the “pill” stops ovulation and has an “abortifacient effect”
Here is an example from a cited page " It is estimated that women experience at least one very early abortion for every year that they are on the Pill.2" - omsoul.com/contraception-side-effects.php - (2)Family of the Americas Foundation, (800) 443-3395,www.familyplanning.net
Says who? well group one says group 2 but group 2 says group 3, etc, etc. So where is the suspect data? And it is suspect because that is roughly the rate others say a sexually activity woman without birth control would incur such. That would mean the pill has no affect at all!!! It is unlikely many of these statements are true. Frankly I suspect if we ever find such data we will see the foot notes include other contraceptives or refer to specific small special sections of the population and do not reflect real populations at all.
Here is another “The Pill consists of a combination of two types of artificial hormones called estrogens and progestins. It works by inhibiting ovulation and sperm transport and by changing the lining of the inside of a woman’s uterus (called the endometrium) so that if the woman does conceive she will often have an early abortion.” - omsoul.com/contraception-side-effects.php Again can this statement and the other one both be correct? This statement claims ovulation is reduced thus the abortifacient effect would have to reduce. It will be practically impossible for both statements to be true. The statement “often have” is much better but is it accurate? Others claim no such data exists. Sorry to see personal attacks were used in the place of data.
A
astegallrnc
Guest
I suppose this depends on what a person means by regulate a cycle. The pill often regulates the bleeding but it does not regulate menstrual cycles since ovulation is suppressed.
K
kleary
Guest
This priest is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
The pill DOES NOT “regulate” the cycle! It throws it COMPLETELY OUT OF WHACK!!!
I attended NFP classes with my wife and you should see the “charts” of women who come off the pill! You cannot tell when ovulation happens when you come off the pill- the temperature readings look like the appalachian mountains on a chart- the other signs are also off - constant mucous, etc.
If you are Catholic never ever go to the pill no matter what anyone says- it will do more harm than good. You will have a VERY hard time charting and determining the cycle and when ovulation occurs for some time. It will have you abstaining even longer- and reverting to the pill most likely.
Ken
The pill DOES NOT “regulate” the cycle! It throws it COMPLETELY OUT OF WHACK!!!
I attended NFP classes with my wife and you should see the “charts” of women who come off the pill! You cannot tell when ovulation happens when you come off the pill- the temperature readings look like the appalachian mountains on a chart- the other signs are also off - constant mucous, etc.
If you are Catholic never ever go to the pill no matter what anyone says- it will do more harm than good. You will have a VERY hard time charting and determining the cycle and when ovulation occurs for some time. It will have you abstaining even longer- and reverting to the pill most likely.
Ken
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
Let me help you out reference #1
What are the benefits of the pill?
health
Dr Sharmaine Mitchell
Monday, May 29, 2006
[Question]I’m 19 years old and considering starting the Pill. I am aware of the various side effects, but will it mess up my menstrual cycle? My periods come around the same time every month and last for three days. Will the pill extend these days and will it make my periods come when they’re not supposed to? Can I start taking it at any time during the month?
[Answer]The combined oral contraceptive pills is an effective means of preventing pregnancy, and it has a lot of other benefits too. It controls your menstrual cycle so it is regular.
If your periods are usually regular, they will continue to be so.
In patients who have irregular periods, the Pill regularises them, and they are usually of a shorter duration and much lighter. This means fewer sanitary pads or tampons, and eventual reduction in the incidence of anaemia
(low blood count).
There are different types of oral contraceptive pills which contain varying doses of oestrogen and progesterone. The newer types, such as Mirelle, have half the dose of the usual low-dose pills, so side effects, such as nausea, vomiting, breast tenderness and bloating, are reduced.
The lower dose of oestrogen is however effective in terms of its contraceptive benefits. Sometimes there may be a mild break through bleeding on the lower dose preparations and you may need to change to a slightly higher dose.
The birth control pills also reduce the incidence of dysmenorrhoea (painful periods). They can be started anytime from the first to the fifth day of the menses. You need to read the packet insert since the time to start will vary based on the preparation.
Birth control pills do not protect you against sexually transmitted infections, especially HIV. You should use a barrier method of contraception such as the male or female condom in addition to the Pill. It is best that you insist that your partner get himself tested for the HIV virus before you commence sexual activity and maintain the use of the condom throughout.
Sexual activity at an early age puts you at risk for exposure to the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) and eventually cervical cancer. It is important for you to get an annual check-up and cervical (pap) smear once you are sexually active.
Consult your gynaecologist who will advise you further.
Dr Sharmaine Mitchell is an obstetrician and gynaecologist. Send questions and comments to allwoman@jamaicaobserver.com or fax to 968-2025. We regret that we cannot supply personal answers.
jamaicaobserver.com/magazines/AllWoman/html/20060528T180000-0500_105592_OBS_WHAT_ARE_THE_BENEFITS_OF_THE_PILL_.asp
Reference # 2
WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE PILL?
Decreased blood loss and iron deficiency anemia, due to lighter periods
Decreased menstrual cramps
**Regulation of menstrual periods **
Decreased risk of fibrocystic breast condition
Decreased risk of ovarian and endometrial cancers and ovarian cysts
Protection against PID (pelvic inflammatory disease), a major cause of infertility. But, birth control pills DO NOT provide any protection against sexually transmitted infections.
Reversibility - ovulation is reestablished quickly and side effects quickly diminish when the pill is discontinued. Loss of fertility is NOT caused by birth control pills.
Acne improvement
mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/pill_the.html (University of Illinois)
What are the benefits of the pill?
health
Dr Sharmaine Mitchell
Monday, May 29, 2006
[Question]I’m 19 years old and considering starting the Pill. I am aware of the various side effects, but will it mess up my menstrual cycle? My periods come around the same time every month and last for three days. Will the pill extend these days and will it make my periods come when they’re not supposed to? Can I start taking it at any time during the month?
[Answer]The combined oral contraceptive pills is an effective means of preventing pregnancy, and it has a lot of other benefits too. It controls your menstrual cycle so it is regular.
If your periods are usually regular, they will continue to be so.
In patients who have irregular periods, the Pill regularises them, and they are usually of a shorter duration and much lighter. This means fewer sanitary pads or tampons, and eventual reduction in the incidence of anaemia
(low blood count).
There are different types of oral contraceptive pills which contain varying doses of oestrogen and progesterone. The newer types, such as Mirelle, have half the dose of the usual low-dose pills, so side effects, such as nausea, vomiting, breast tenderness and bloating, are reduced.
The lower dose of oestrogen is however effective in terms of its contraceptive benefits. Sometimes there may be a mild break through bleeding on the lower dose preparations and you may need to change to a slightly higher dose.
The birth control pills also reduce the incidence of dysmenorrhoea (painful periods). They can be started anytime from the first to the fifth day of the menses. You need to read the packet insert since the time to start will vary based on the preparation.
Birth control pills do not protect you against sexually transmitted infections, especially HIV. You should use a barrier method of contraception such as the male or female condom in addition to the Pill. It is best that you insist that your partner get himself tested for the HIV virus before you commence sexual activity and maintain the use of the condom throughout.
Sexual activity at an early age puts you at risk for exposure to the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) and eventually cervical cancer. It is important for you to get an annual check-up and cervical (pap) smear once you are sexually active.
Consult your gynaecologist who will advise you further.
Dr Sharmaine Mitchell is an obstetrician and gynaecologist. Send questions and comments to allwoman@jamaicaobserver.com or fax to 968-2025. We regret that we cannot supply personal answers.
jamaicaobserver.com/magazines/AllWoman/html/20060528T180000-0500_105592_OBS_WHAT_ARE_THE_BENEFITS_OF_THE_PILL_.asp
Reference # 2
WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE PILL?
Decreased blood loss and iron deficiency anemia, due to lighter periods
Decreased menstrual cramps
**Regulation of menstrual periods **
Decreased risk of fibrocystic breast condition
Decreased risk of ovarian and endometrial cancers and ovarian cysts
Protection against PID (pelvic inflammatory disease), a major cause of infertility. But, birth control pills DO NOT provide any protection against sexually transmitted infections.
Reversibility - ovulation is reestablished quickly and side effects quickly diminish when the pill is discontinued. Loss of fertility is NOT caused by birth control pills.
Acne improvement
mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/pill_the.html (University of Illinois)
K
kleary
Guest
The best way to “regulate” the cycle is TO ABSTAIN.
I am in a situation here with my wife. We have had three children in the past three years of our marriage. Each pregnancy threw her cycle off and we could not use NFP. All the signs showed that she was infertile yet she conceived twice after our first.
However now that the third child has come we have become serious about it. We have to abstain for at least six months until her cycle becomes regular…that is six months on top of the three months after giving birth so we are talking about NINE MONTHS of abstainence, save a few times during her period which is not particularly nice so to say
.
It is a sacrifice and a cross to carry. I talked to a priest about it and he told me “Welcome to the priesthood”- “God is asking much of you at this time - look at St. Joseph - married to the most beautiful woman in the world- how he never touched her- pray to him and ask him to give you strength to endure this cross you must carry.”
That seems a heck of a lot different than “ok - use the pill to regulate.”
Ken
I am in a situation here with my wife. We have had three children in the past three years of our marriage. Each pregnancy threw her cycle off and we could not use NFP. All the signs showed that she was infertile yet she conceived twice after our first.
However now that the third child has come we have become serious about it. We have to abstain for at least six months until her cycle becomes regular…that is six months on top of the three months after giving birth so we are talking about NINE MONTHS of abstainence, save a few times during her period which is not particularly nice so to say
.It is a sacrifice and a cross to carry. I talked to a priest about it and he told me “Welcome to the priesthood”- “God is asking much of you at this time - look at St. Joseph - married to the most beautiful woman in the world- how he never touched her- pray to him and ask him to give you strength to endure this cross you must carry.”
That seems a heck of a lot different than “ok - use the pill to regulate.”
Ken
K
kleary
Guest
Note the “problem” with the pill is that it goes against Catholic Teaching on Human Life and that once you come off it your cycle will be irregular “to the max” so taking it will do you no good whatsoever.
I have the charts here of women coming off the pill I can show you- their cycles are all extremely irregular- you cannot use the pill to help with NFP at all. Do not believe what the liberals are telling you!
Ken
A
astegallrnc
Guest
A true menstrual cycle includes ovulation. Irregular menstrual cycles are related to irregular ovulation or anovulation. OCs do not regulate ovulation (unless you consider suppression regulating); however, the pill does regulate uterine bleeding. It is basic reproductive endocrinology.
So back to the pill and NFP. NFP and the pill aren’t compatible.
So back to the pill and NFP. NFP and the pill aren’t compatible.
P
pnewton
Guest
Why would anyone listen to anyone but doctors for medical advice anyway.
Fortunately, we were not in a situation of needing to worry about NFP, since the point was to have children, not avoiding pregnancy. Again, it’s tough to disagree with a doctor when he was proven right.
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
Hi Ken
I do not know how you determined these doctors were liberal? I have noticed the writtings from doctors are less cited on the thread verses the Ph d commonly referred to, however her Ph d does not appear to be in medicine. Interesting no, the MD’s and Priest being dismissed and the apologist being appointed interpretor of the medical issues…
I do wish you the best of luck on the family issues, I hope things work out well.
A
astegallrnc
Guest
Sorry in a hurry and made an error…
Irregular menstrual cycles are related to irregular ovulation or oligoovulation.
A
astegallrnc
Guest
It is confusing when health care professionals provide inaccurate information to health care consumers. The pill does not regulate ovulation and therefore does not regulate menstrual cycles.
As for the advice regarding using the pill and NFP, how would one monitor the signs of fertility when fertility is suppressed?
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
other:
And how was this determined? It simply contridicts what the doctors are writing.
This maybe a very good question 1) Why is one attempting to monitor these signs? To control pregnancy, right. Well if that was working why is the patient in to see the doctor. 2) In the OP it appears the intent is not to synchronize the two practices, it appears the one is to be a therapeutic method to change the bodies action, the other is really unrelated in a direct way. If the therapy is successful then the NFP could be used with greater accuracy. 3) Is fertility suppressed, because many NFP posters claim abortive rates which are not possible if fertility is suppressed, in fact some may need an increase in fertility to make their statements true. .
1
1ke
Guest
I cannot believe people are this ignorant of the facts.
This is getting old.
The pill has three ways of working: it is supposed to inhibit ovulation, but because the level of hormones needed to do that is so high the original pills that were completely ovulatory suppressant were causing women to have all sorts of horrible side effects, strokes, etc. So, they changed the formulation of the pills in the late 70s, early 80s, to make them lower dose hormones. When they did that breakthrough ovulation became a consequence.
So, to handle that new issue of ovulation occurring, they reformulated the pills to do two other things: change the cervical mucus to inhibit sperm transport and thin the endometrium so that any embryo that does get conceived cannot implant. When implantation of a new life fails-- that is an abortifacient effect, not a “contraceptive” effect. The pill does not always prevent conception.
And, you can read this in the Doctor’s Prescribing Information on the pill websites, Yasmin for example. If you click on the Pysician Prescribing Information, read the Clinical Pharmacology section, which clearly states:
*
Combination oral contraceptives (COCs) act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increases the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduces the likelihood of implantation).*
Interestingly, if you click the Patient Prescribing Information (what they hand out to the women) or read their website there is *no mention *of this abortifacient effect. They purposely HIDE it. In fact, when you read their website they tell women this:
*Combination pills contain an estrogen and a progestin and work in two ways:
The body is “tricked” into thinking it is pregnant. This prevents the release of an egg, or ovulation. Without an egg to be fertilized, a woman cannot become pregnant
The cervical mucus is thickened, making it difficult for sperm to travel toward the egg and fertilize it in case an egg is released *
This directly contradicts their own document that I posted above. Hmmm…
Yes, the pill manufacturers have an agenda, selling pills, so if you believe what is written on their website you are only fooling yourself.
If you continue to deny that the pill works in this way, then it is not out of simply lack of knowledge but out of willfullness. And, in that case, it is pointless to talk to you.
F
fix
Guest
Perhaps mostly, but that is not the only use. There are benefits to knowing the information one gathers for reasons that relate to health.
Because one may have much pain or unusual ammounts of bleeding as two examples.
That much may be true. The priestly advice may be along those lines but it seems misguided from a physiological point and perhaps from a moral point.
Again, taking the meds masks the signs of feritility which are central to spacing births and to monitor gyn health.
Confusing, but it would seem both ideas here are true to a degree. The meds do suppress ovulation, but not always 100%. That is why potentially their use is abortifacient.
A
astegallrnc
Guest
Because ovulation is part of a true menstrual cycle. It is basic endocrinology and physiology. It is the medical definition. I am not making this up:
medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=7865
embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/MCycle/MCycle.htm
When a woman complains of irregular cycles, that complaint is approached from the perspective of symptom management ie., she is complaining of irregular, unpredictable menstrual periods. The pill will regulate the bleeding so in simplistic terms it regulates the cycle. Most health care providers do not take the time to explain what is actually happening and yes this is an important point for some women.
F
fix
Guest
Thank you, again. Without a basic grasp of reproductive physiology the entire argument goes in circles.
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