Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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edwest2 said:
From the Catholic Answers Library:

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”
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So, if you have a burning desire to plead ‘allegory’, you say that the story of the fall teaches us that we are all descended through one couple, whom God gave life & whom God ensouled, and who disobeyed God and through whom sin entered this world. The inspired writer gave these people the names ‘Man’ and ‘(Mother) of all living’ (that is, ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’). I think it’s not unreasonable to look at these as titles as much as personal names…
 
Gorgias said:
So, if you have a burning desire to plead ‘allegory’, you say that the story of the fall teaches us that we are all descended through one couple, whom God gave life & whom God ensouled, and who disobeyed God and through whom sin entered this world. The inspired writer gave these people the names ‘Man’ and ‘(Mother) of all living’ (that is, ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’). I think it’s not unreasonable to look at these as titles as much as personal names…
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Personally, I like to refer to them as Jane and John Doe or Mr. and Mrs. Smith.
🙂

Regardless, two, sole, real, true humans founded all of humanity which exists today.
 
Gorgias said:
So, if you have a burning desire to plead ‘allegory’, you say that the story of the fall teaches us that we are all descended through one couple, whom God gave life & whom God ensouled, and who disobeyed God and through whom sin entered this world. The inspired writer gave these people the names ‘Man’ and ‘(Mother) of all living’ (that is, ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’). I think it’s not unreasonable to look at these as titles as much as personal names…
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What I find interesting is the number of posts I’ve read that wish to assign allegory to Divine Revelation. Adam and Eve were two distinct individuals. Adam is not just the Hebrew word for man, and Genesis is not the only place in the Bible that confirms Adam as being a specific man.

Romans 5:12

bible.cc/romans/5-12.htm

Peace,
Ed
 
Well, of course parts of the OT are ‘just stories’. However it definitely isn’t ‘all just stories’.

But yeah, Job and Jonah are probably “just stories”
 
edwest2 said:
What I find interesting is the number of posts I’ve read that wish to assign allegory to Divine Revelation.
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Well, Revelation can find expression allegorically; but Revelation itself isn’t allegorical.
Adam and Eve were two distinct individuals.
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Yes, there were two distinct individuals. And?
Adam is not just the Hebrew word for man,
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You’re right, of course – it’s the word for “red clay”. 😉
and Genesis is not the only place in the Bible that confirms Adam as being a specific man.
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Well, you’ve gotta admit – as a means of expression, it’d be kind of clunkier to say “the first guy God created” each time, so the name assigned to him by the inspired writer does a good job.
 
Please read the following:

bible.cc/2_peter/1-21.htm

All Scripture is inspired by God. Jesus tells us Moses wrote concerning Him. And he makes other Old Testament references. In once case, he became transfigured and spoke with Moses and Elijah while a few of His disciples watched.

Peace,
Ed
 
Saw this the other day and it made me think:

The Great Flood: How did the fresh water fish survive when the salt waters inundated inland waterways?
 
I think Catholics are committed to the OT being literally true in all aspects.

Otherwise, If the OT is to a lesser or greater extent allegorical and yet acceptable as the foundation for Jesus and the NT, does that not leave the door open for the possibility that the NT and the accounts of the life of Jesus are allegorical too?

Where would this end?
 
It reminds me of the Jesus Seminar where so called experts determine whether the sayings of Jesus are true or not. Start attacking the foundation of Christian belief based on teaching them as a series of mere myths or stories, cast doubt upon them, decide which ones are valid, which ones are not etc,and you will eventually destroy the faith of the believer and the Faith of the Church. Because when you attack the OT, you are really attacking Jesus and calling Him a liar.

Jesus affirms the veracity of every major section of the OT from Genesis to Malachi. Matt 5:18 For Amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did not Jesus say in Luke 17 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Were Adam and Eve real persons? The Lord Jesus says in Matt 19:4 “Have you not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female.”

To state that such events in the OT which were confirmed by Jesus,Himself, were just mere myths or stories, would infer that Jesus is a liar which is blasphemous.
 
Some parts are fictional: for example the stories Jesus told are not stories about real people but were to tell something.

Some parts are historic: for example the dead on the cross.

The author of one part gave hints and signs to show, if it is a fictional stories or a historical documentation.

You may look for exegeses.

Sorry for my English.
 
Cormacnl said:
I think Catholics are committed to the OT being literally true in all aspects.

Otherwise, If the OT is to a lesser or greater extent allegorical and yet acceptable as the foundation for Jesus and the NT, does that not leave the door open for the possibility that the NT and the accounts of the life of Jesus are allegorical too?

Where would this end?
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Catholics are committed to the Divine Revelation contained in Scripture and declared by the Catholic Church according to its protocol under the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit.
 
Andre1000 said:
Some parts are fictional: for example the stories Jesus told are not stories about real people but were to tell something.

Some parts are historic: for example the dead on the cross.

The author of one part gave hints and signs to show, if it is a fictional stories or a historical documentation.

You may look for exegeses.

Sorry for my English.
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Your English is very good. Welcome to CAF.
 
Cormacnl said:
I think Catholics are committed to the OT being literally true in all aspects.
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I think you have to be careful in your use of the word “literal”. Certainly, there is always a literal sense of Scripture – that is, the words of Scripture always truly mean something (cf CCC 115ff). However, this does not mean that we are fundamentalists – although we assert a literal meaning, we don’t require a literalistic interpretation.
Otherwise, If the OT is to a lesser or greater extent allegorical
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Yet, “allegorical” doesn’t mean untrue; rather, it means that it points to truth in a way that is literal yet not literalistic. “Roses are red” is a literalistic statement – they actually are red. “I burn with a red-hot hatred” is allegorical – there’s nothing that’s actually red here. Yet, both statements are true. We’re not saying, then, that allegorical passages in the OT are untrue… just that their truth is contained beyond the literal words in which they’re expressed.
and yet acceptable as the foundation for Jesus and the NT, does that not leave the door open for the possibility that the NT and the accounts of the life of Jesus are allegorical too?
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It certainly forces us to raise the question; however, I think that this concern is adequately addressed by the way that we understand the differences in time, construction/editing, and genre of OT and NT accounts (cf CCC 126ff, where the historicity of the NT is discussed).
 
razredge said:
Well, of course parts of the OT are ‘just stories’. However it definitely isn’t ‘all just stories’.

But yeah, Job and Jonah are probably “just stories”
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If Job and Jonah are just hard to believe, what do you think of people rising from the dead?
 
stevekehl said:
If Job and Jonah are just hard to believe, what do you think of people rising from the dead?
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Steve,

I’m not seeing the judgement that they’re “just hard to believe”. Rather, does a reasoned judgment that certain OT accounts are likely allegorical necessarily imply that doctrine is incorrect? You’re asserting a false dichotomy here…
 
bmullins said:
It’s not heresy. The church doesn’t teach that it ‘has to be a story’ or ‘has to be truth.’ Most hold that Jonah and Job are stories. They could have been literal people and literal events. That may not have been. They could have been stories to highlight important truths. The thing is, whether they were real or not, the stories hold great spiritual truths for us to learn. That’s the important part.

My priest has said the same thing in the recent past. That they are most likely stories and that we aren’t supposed to read them for ‘historical accuracy’ but for spiritual truth. The bible is a book of faith, not a history textbook.
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Thats the one thing I struggle with, why couldnt God make it a historical textbook? Just wondering.
 
Gorgias said:
Steve,

I’m not seeing the judgement that they’re “just hard to believe”. Rather, does a reasoned judgment that certain OT accounts are likely allegorical necessarily imply that doctrine is incorrect? You’re asserting a false dichotomy here…
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I thought Catholicism was an ‘all-or-nothing’ faith - you have to accept everything and you can’t pick and choose what to believe in.

But is one obliged to believe and accept allegorical texts or only the factual stuff?
 
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