Priest Sex Scandal

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Hi,

I am in avery unique situation. A close family member is a district attorney who prosecutes child molestation cases and in particular catholic priest abuse. In a rare afternoon discussion it became very they are vehemently anti-catholic called for the absolute demise of the catholic church! Quite stunning. I attempted to point out that the issues were society wide and kept stating that I found it hard to believe and statistically impossible that a great deal of such cases would not have been reported to law enforcement and why did law enforcement step in? They said it doesn’t matter! The fact that even if the catholic church suffered a moral breakdown in dealign with the issues IF law enforcement acted many instances would have been prevented.

Along the way I attempted to provide proof of several studies that were undertaken, one I believe by SMU, that came to the conclusion the instances of pediphilia assume a certain percentage (<5%) of the population no matter how you parse society and in fact a bit lower for catholic priests, ~3%… Unfortunately none of this made an impression and uy argument dismissed.

With all this in mind can anyone help direct me to some studies or fact such as I presented so that when I next broach this topic I will be more prepared. Normally I don’t bother with this too much but as I said I have the ear of an important attorney in a position of power. And more importantly it may be this attorney has lost perspective (mostly due the having to deal with such crimes over a long period) and is begin over zealous in perusing prosecutions.

In no way shape or form am I excusing any priest or the church for the way much of it was handled. I’m not looking to exonerate anyone but attempting to shed more light on the subject. I did bring up the recent revelations about SNAP lying and at least they quickly dismissed SNAP as inconsequential and agreed that they have a pattern of lying…more than has been revealed so far.

Thank you for adding in.

TAZ
 
Look up the recently-released study undertaken by the John Jay Criminal College. I think you’ll find what you’re looking for in their report.
 
God will hold them accountable for their own vile wickedness. There is no greater sin than harming a child, Jesus had a special place in his heart for children, he even said that it would be better if the offenders had stones tied about them and cast into the sea. However, the Church itself teaches against people like this, and you cannot blame the Church as a whole for those who choose not to follow its rules.
 
The sex scandal has three parts.

First, the fact that adults in positions of authority used those positions to abuse children.

Second, the fact that higher Church authorities sometimes treated the issue as one of personal sin, rather than of criminal offending.

Third, the fact that it was only in the face of overwhelming criticism that appropriate action finally tool place.

The first is true of many organisations (sadly). The Church, however, seems to have been particularly culpable in comparison with other organisations in relation to the second and third. However, it seems to me as an outside observer that the Church has now learned from its mistakes, apologised, made restitution, and put good procedures in place. I am sure it is far from perfect, and in other threads I have argued strongly for more action. But I am sure the enforcement agency to which your relation belongs will also be less than perfect when it comes to the abuse of human rights. Perhaps you could compare the statement about abuse protection on your local diocese website with the statement, if any, on the website of the enforcement agency. I have a feeling the diocese will win. The Church needs recognition for the good things it has done in response to these terrible crimes, and urging to do better, rather than repeated condemnation for things of which it has appropriately repented.
 
Thank you for the responses. The John Jay Criminal College report was indeed was I was after.

Any other references would be greatly appreciated.

TAZ
 
Keep digging and you will find evidence that demonstrates that the priest abuse scandal says less about particular flaws in the catholic church than it does about universally fallen human nature.

The evidence for this is clear in the public school system. The EXACT same scenario routinely occured prior to child sex abuse becoming national news a decade ago or so. The pattern:
  1. Teacher molests student.
  2. Coworkers or parents become suspicious and report to administration.
  3. Administration doesn’t find smoking gun, but does find troubling signs. It applies paltry disciplinary penalties and transfers teacher to another school with a stern warning to shape up, thus avoiding public scandal and messy teacher’s union firing battles.
Sound familiar? The issue isn’t a particular problem in the catholic church, it is that all humans are fallen and prone to taking the easy way out of an apalling situation.

I forget where I read things, but I’m pretty sure that hard statistics show that teachers sexually abuse minors at about twice or more the rate of priests. But yet you don’t much hear Leno telling teacher jokes, eh?
 
Calling for an end to the Catholic Church is ironic coming from a government agent. The government routinely hides its own crimes, violates the law with impunity, or just exempts itself from the law. Government schools are a dangerous place often requiring a constant law enforcement presence. Teachers these days seem to be more and more frequently violating their students. So if this district attorney family members finds the Catholic Church to be beyond salvation so is the one he works for.
 
exnihilo said:
Calling for an end to the Catholic Church is ironic coming from a government agent. The government routinely hides its own crimes, violates the law with impunity, or just exempts itself from the law. Government schools are a dangerous place often requiring a constant law enforcement presence. Teachers these days seem to be more and more frequently violating their students. So if this district attorney family members finds the Catholic Church to be beyond salvation so is the one he works for.
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Yes it is disturbing to me. I’m almost of the opinion I should report them too their higher ups but since they have progressed through the ranks to an upper position it is probably a dept. wide sentiment. And what could my complaints accomplish…

The discussion was particularly as while I am educated am in no way shape or form an attorney, yet I was able to spot numerous fallacies in their logic. They refused to acknowledge any of them and as I said would just say “it doesn’t matter that law enforcement did nothing” which proves they have a lack of concern for victims and is using their position to attack the Church.

What do call 20 lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start!

In the midst of it all it slipped my mind the old canards they were tossing about such as nuns burning babies etc… Obviously quite brainwashed by their evangelical back ground.

It at least piqued my interest again in Catholic Aplogetics. Other than Keating’s book and one I just order by Kreet can anyone suggest further literature?

Thank you,

TAZ
 
The original John Jay Report can be found here:
bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay_revised/2004_02_27_John_Jay_Main_Report_Optimized.pdf

If you look at the graph on page numbered 28 of the study, it is apparent that actual incidents of abuse peaked between the years of 1971 and 1980, with a rapid drop off following that. The abuse crisis itself is essentially over and has been for some time, though the fallout continues.

I suspect that the crisis had something to do with conditions in the seminaries during the years that produced those abusers. But you will probably want to read the entire study.

Some additional resources and commentary can be found here.
jjay.cuny.edu/4688.php

And here

psychologytoday.com/blog/do-the-right-thing/201105/the-new-john-jay-report-clergy-abuse-in-the-catholic-church

and here:

usccb.org/news/2011/11-105.cfm

and here:

catholicleague.org/politics-color-john-jay-study/
 
TucsonAZ said:
In the midst of it all it slipped my mind the old canards they were tossing about such as nuns burning babies etc… Obviously quite brainwashed by their evangelical back ground.
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Did they mention the Spanish Inquisition? This is a favorite thing to bash the Catholic Church with. I find a few things significant. First let me state that I’m no expert on this historical event, but the number of people executed was pretty apparently small something like 3,000-5,000. Compared to the number of babies killed in America in just one month or the number of civilians we kill in war this is nothing. But what really struck me is that one of the charges was sodomy. Quite a few pederast, including priests, were executed for this crime. I imagine many a person who rails against the church would support executing men for violating a young boy. So the question I would have, if they ever admitted that execution would be a fair penalty for this crime, would be if they would commend this aspect of the Inquisition? Of course if you make that argument with a lawyer you have to set it up right. But if you gathered the facts you might be able to get them.
 
TucsonAZ said:
Hi,

I am in avery unique situation. A close family member is a district attorney who prosecutes child molestation cases and in particular catholic priest abuse. In a rare afternoon discussion it became very they are vehemently anti-catholic called for the absolute demise of the catholic church! Quite stunning. I attempted to point out that the issues were society wide and kept stating that I found it hard to believe and statistically impossible that a great deal of such cases would not have been reported to law enforcement and why did law enforcement step in? They said it doesn’t matter! The fact that even if the catholic church suffered a moral breakdown in dealign with the issues IF law enforcement acted many instances would have been prevented.

Along the way I attempted to provide proof of several studies that were undertaken, one I believe by SMU, that came to the conclusion the instances of pediphilia assume a certain percentage (<5%) of the population no matter how you parse society and in fact a bit lower for catholic priests, ~3%… Unfortunately none of this made an impression and uy argument dismissed.

With all this in mind can anyone help direct me to some studies or fact such as I presented so that when I next broach this topic I will be more prepared. Normally I don’t bother with this too much but as I said I have the ear of an important attorney in a position of power. And more importantly it may be this attorney has lost perspective (mostly due the having to deal with such crimes over a long period) and is begin over zealous in perusing prosecutions.

In no way shape or form am I excusing any priest or the church for the way much of it was handled. I’m not looking to exonerate anyone but attempting to shed more light on the subject. I did bring up the recent revelations about SNAP lying and at least they quickly dismissed SNAP as inconsequential and agreed that they have a pattern of lying…more than has been revealed so far.

Thank you for adding in.

TAZ
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Your family member hates the Church and wants it destroyed. Who knows why. You have already failed in trying to reason with this person and, moreover, he/she is in a position to profit from this act of destruction so they have extra motivation not to listen to reason.

I strongly recommend you withdraw yourself from this person’s company if that is an option for you (i.e., it’s not a parent), for the good of your own soul.

As far as good Catholic apologetical literature is concerned, I very very very strongly endorse and recommend Edward Feser’s The Last Superstition. Can’t recommend it enough. It converted me!
 
TucsonAZ said:
Normally I don’t bother with this too much but as I said I have the ear of an important attorney in a position of power.
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I don’t believe that you have the ear of this “important attorney” at all but you are being used by this “important attorney” to be verbally abused for your beliefs and to help strengthen his “argument” for dissolving the One True Church.:nope:
 
Quarles47 said:
I don’t believe that you have the ear of this “important attorney” at all but you are being used by this “important attorney” to be verbally abused for your beliefs and to help strengthen his “argument” for dissolving the One True Church.:nope:
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Sadly I have come to this conclusion… Although I am quite aware of and don’t attempt to convert or prove anything to them as they are beyond stubborn, but I do not back down nor take half answers. In all honesty it is disturbing because they are highly respected prosecutors and frankly made a very weak case that an amateur such as I shot holes in with ease. so I suppose that bodes well for truth in any regard the fact that the bigoted attacker is so emotionally blind they do not realize there logic and case is fatally flawed.

While I am a home maker now I have a college education and know how to write professional papers. I had forgotten to be prepared with citations of which you all have helped me.

TAZ
 
sw85 said:
Your family member hates the Church and wants it destroyed. Who knows why. You have already failed in trying to reason with this person and, moreover, he/she is in a position to profit from this act of destruction so they have extra motivation not to listen to reason.

I strongly recommend you withdraw yourself from this person’s company if that is an option for you (i.e., it’s not a parent), for the good of your own soul.

As far as good Catholic apologetical literature is concerned, I very very very strongly endorse and recommend Edward Feser’s The Last Superstition. Can’t recommend it enough. It converted me!
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Thanks,

Well I know perfectly but will not share the specifics here. One of those typical church “won’t let” them behave as they prefer ad nauseum although they are much more self righteous than that.

I will look for this book, thank you!

TAZ
 
This person has closed his heart and mind to the truth. Until this changes, there isn’t much you can do. He has a blind hatred toward Catholicism and in particular Catholic priests and will not listen to evidence. This is where hatred leads… corruption of the mind and of the soul. He is so full of hate that he can no longer see clearly.

The best thing any of us can do is pray for him.
 
exnihilo said:
Did they mention the Spanish Inquisition? This is a favorite thing to bash the Catholic Church with.
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Then too, there’s the “Inquisition” recorded in the Bible. From Nobody Expects the Mosaic Inquisition:
Yes, it’s true. There was an “Inquisition” recorded in the Bible. In Deuteronomy 17, we read: “If there is found among you . . . a man or woman who . . . has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, . . . then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones” (Deut. 17:2–5).

The text says the Israelites were to “inquire diligently” whether the thing was true. This did not refer to asking a few informal questions and then stoning the person on that basis. That would like having a lynching. As with any case of capital punishment commanded by God’s word, a public legal proceeding—a trial—was called for. The diligent inquiry was thus a legal inquiry—an inquisition. Its purpose was to protect the person accused of practicing a false religion, to make sure he really had committed the crime in question. Legal safeguards were built into the process: “On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses he that is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you” (Deut. 17:6–7). By making sure there were multiple witnesses, and that the witnesses were serious enough to take the lead in the execution itself, the chances of a false conviction were reduced.
…
 
A lot of people don’t understand that those of us who are wary of the CC are so not because of the abusive priests themselves, but because of the cover ups that the church hierarchy has been involved in. Another thing that worries us is that rather than unequivocally denouncing these cover ups many Catholics make excuses, such as teachers abuse too, or its only a very small number of priests. It doesn’t matter. The abuse should stop and the church should take the same hard line stance on it that it does on birth control coverage. It would even be easy to do, that would be a very popular stance with the public.

Cut the lawyer a break, he deals with some of the worst people in the world. If you want to change his heart and mind, do so by being the best and most loving person you can be.

Show him what it really means to be Catholic.
 
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