Priest singing / chanting the Mass

[TCCOV]

Brother Tiger,
Mildly amused I am that your professors haven’t immunized you yet to know that we laity actually cannot demand from any priest a darned thing!
The OP used quotations to qualify “supposed to” when asking about chanting all orations. That was mistake 1.
There really is no equivilent typology to Masses in the OF comparing to those of the EF from Lecta to Solemnis, if I understand the post-conciliar legislation. MS (1967) seems to qualify a taxonomy that is based upon the EF, but also seems to “inform” the OF by inference.
The GIRM, therefore, seems to be the prevailing document. All that said-
Yes, it is of the greatest merit and benefit to all if the Mass is sung entirely by all (according to their offices) from Introit to “Deo gratias.” There is no requirement or formal name for such. Paradigmatically (is that a word?) such a Mass would be substantively akin to a “Solemn High Mass,” presuming that even the lessons and all propers (whether a responsorial or gradual, or a brevis gospel verse rather than a Latin, gregorian melismatic alleluia versicle, were pointed and chanted. I’d have no personal problem if the homily was intoned recto tono for that matter.
But, as you say, the prevailing culture suggests young people have been systematically weaned from thinking they can individually sing well (when with a modicum of study many would excel) much less corporately. And seminaries seem to put more stock in professors’ who cover both the liturgical and musical/vocal curricula, and not have singing specialists on board. So…
But a start to finish chanted Mass can still be done within the 55-65 minute window Americans demand, and be done beautifully. In Latin or English or Spanish or whatever.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think liturgies should have as much singing as possible in reason, but the fact that it is in the rubrics I think you should be careful how much you demand it from the priests. I think you are spot on in what you say but I’m thinking with the mind of the Church and the rubrics she gives us doesn’t make it normative. Again I want there to be singing as much as possible but I don’t think it should be normative, but still we should do it as much as possible.

one other thing speaking from experience there are many guys in seminary who can’t sing well. I think we should train them as much as possible but that isn’t always a key aspect of formation.

I think in the East a man who can’t sing can’t be ordained!

Singing is an integral part of the liturgy.

 

[catholictiger]

I think in the East a man who can’t sing can’t be ordained!

Singing is an integral part of the liturgy.

that is the east and their traditions are different. While I think singing in mass is beautiful and should be there putting to much focus on it takes away from what is essential and that is Christ.

Plus we need priests and just because a man can’t sing doesn’t mean he isn’t going to be a good priest.

 

[ProVobis]

On the other hand, I know priests who do not chant or sing because they have difficulty carrying a tune.

Carrying a tune aside, some priests and people (and I’m one of them) believe that Latin is actually easier to sing than speak. English OTOH with its homophones and silent letters and endings is not, at least not without a lot of practice.

 

[catholictiger]

Brother Tiger,
Mildly amused I am that your professors haven’t immunized you yet to know that we laity actually cannot demand from any priest a darned thing!

If I came off as not wanting people to tell me what to do please tell me. I was just responding to a poster who thinks that it is the Norm to sing or chant the Mass. While I would say that yes we should prefer it and I think a mass with singing is beautiful. But the current magisterium doesn’t say you must or its the norm to chant the mass. I personally think (and I’m still uneducated on this stuff) that priests should say the black and do the red. While the Church in no way says one can’t chant or sing the mass putting to much emphasis on chanting or singing when the Church doesn’t do that is just as misplaced as a priest ad libbing set parts of the Mass.

The OP used quotations to qualify “supposed to” when asking about chanting all orations. That was mistake 1.
There really is no equivilent typology to Masses in the OF comparing to those of the EF from Lecta to Solemnis, if I understand the post-conciliar legislation. MS (1967) seems to qualify a taxonomy that is based upon the EF, but also seems to “inform” the OF by inference.
The GIRM, therefore, seems to be the prevailing document

.

I’m alittle confused about what your trying to say. But the GIRM is the document that has authority when it comes to the Mass. The GIRM and the Missal are the two things priest should follow. There are other documents that provide aids to the priests and are usually in line with the GIRM and Missal. But the only two juridical documents on the liturgy in use of the Latin Rite are the GIRM and the Missal. (I think may be wrong)

All that said-
Yes, it is of the greatest merit and benefit to all if the Mass is sung entirely by all (according to their offices) from Introit to “Deo gratias.”

This point is arguable. The Church calls for full active and conscious participation of the faithful. It is very debatable what that is, but the mass being sung entirely bringing the most benefit is arguable I would say. Plus there is also the theory of progressive solemnity. The Sunday liturgy should be a more beautiful.

There is no requirement or formal name for such. Paradigmatically (is that a word?) such a Mass would be substantively akin to a “Solemn High Mass,” presuming that even the lessons and all propers (whether a responsorial or gradual, or a brevis gospel verse rather than a Latin, gregorian melismatic alleluia versicle, were pointed and chanted. I’d have no personal problem if the homily was intoned recto tono for that matter.

you seem to be talking about the EF I’m talking about the OF

But, as you say, the prevailing culture suggests young people have been systematically weaned from thinking they can individually sing well (when with a modicum of study many would excel) much less corporately. And seminaries seem to put more stock in professors’ who cover both the liturgical and musical/vocal curricula, and not have singing specialists on board. So…

the way I look at it is it would be nice if seminaries had trained singers who can teach the seminarians how to properly sing the mass. But many seminaries have bills to pay salaries to meet. It can be difficult to hire a vocal coach if that means you have a lower quality professor of theology, you can’t afford to pay a good scripture professor. Yes it would be nice to have one of these but I rather have a priest who doesn’t want to chant the mass because he can’t sing well but brings his people to Christ because he knows his theology his scripture, etc. and can preach well.

Don’t sacrifice priests intellectual formation just so they can chant an entire mass.

But a start to finish chanted Mass can still be done within the 55-65 minute window Americans demand, and be done beautifully. In Latin or English or Spanish or whatever.

ok sure if a priest decides to do this and can do it well more power to him. But to require it or think that a Mass won’t be as good because it isn’t chanted I think is problematic.

I think good music and good chanting of the mass parts helps, but I think what really makes a good Mass is are the people able to grow in a deeper relationship with God. I rather have an average liturgy with some music and no chant with an amazing homily, rather than a beautiful mass all chant and lots of music with a bad homily.

Again I can’t say this enough I’m for as much music as possible and in reason. But I think your suggestions may be to much and putting to much focus on music is problematic.

One last thing priests have a lot of duties and have a lot of people to minister to. As I have heard from others, people are going to forget things about the mass by Wednesday at the latest, the homily if its great they may hold on to it till Wednesday, some beautiful song in the liturgy maybe its in their head till that night. But when a priest goes to minister to a dying women at 11pm at night, those people will remember that for YEARS. The Mass is one of the most important parts of our life and it’s shouldn’t be neglected. But the last thing I want to happen is that our priests are so concerned about chanting the mass well, making sure that all the logistics of this beautiful mass are in place that he doesn’t have time for 90 year old sussie who is about to die.

Priests must have balance in their life they should put enough effort into the mass so that it is spiritually beneficial to his flock and he should make it as beautiful as possible. But if that takes away from his other ministries that is a problem.

God bless.

 

[YoungTradCath]

that is the east and their traditions are different. While I think singing in mass is beautiful and should be there putting to much focus on it takes away from what is essential and that is Christ.

Plus we need priests and just because a man can’t sing doesn’t mean he isn’t going to be a good priest.

But singing the Mass is one of the most basic connections between the East and the West, liturgically. Experiencing these things harken right back to the liturgy in the Temple. This is a basic Christian liturgical experience that goes right back to the time of the ancient Jews.

 

[catholictiger]

But singing the Mass is one of the most basic connections between the East and the West, liturgically. Experiencing these things harken right back to the liturgy in the Temple. This is a basic Christian liturgical experience that goes right back to the time of the ancient Jews.

I don’t disagree all I’m saying is that it isn’t the norm put forward by the documents of the Vatican (GIRM) and because of this I’m very careful about making statements like this.

Note: God willing, as a priest I want to sing many parts of the Mass. I love chant and music in the Mass all I’m saying is that to try to make it a norm when the Church doesn’t make it (in the west) is something I don’t agree with.

 

[TCCOV]

** But I think your suggestions may be to much and putting to much focus on music is problematic.**

Brother Tiger, I suggested nothing. The chronology of liturgical documents (one might say even from the Tridentine Missal) from “Tra le sollecitudine” to “Summorum Pontificum” are unequivocal in their elevation of the chanted Mass as the liturgical ideal, period.
What you apparently have yet to discover is that “chant” in its various inculcations (Gregorian, Ambrosian, Gallican, Sarum, Syriac, Corsican even) is NOT regarded in any way as QUOTE “music” per se. Liturgical chants are, for lack of better descriptors, languages unto themselves, a perfect melding between the sacral texts and melodic vehicles that are servants to those texts in such a way that no one would dispute their suitability for elevating those texts.
It’s really not all that complicated. The problem in an ecclesial sense is that your curricula includes so much stuff about being facilitators in so many sociological and economic situations that it’s too easy to forget that the parish begins and ends at the altar on Sundays.

 

[YoungTradCath]

When you properly and rightly sing the Mass, it is not that you are “singing songs and adding stuff” to the Mass. Rather, it is that you are celebrating Mass in its most perfect form.

When you recite the Mass, in whole or in part, then to a lesser or greater degree, you are “taking things off of” the Mass.

A sung Mass is not a regular Mass with stuff added onto it. No. A recited Mass is a sung Mass with all the singing stripped from it.

 

[catholictiger]

** But I think your suggestions may be to much and putting to much focus on music is problematic.**

Brother Tiger, I suggested nothing. The chronology of liturgical documents (one might say even from the Tridentine Missal) from “Tra le sollecitudine” to “Summorum Pontificum” are unequivocal in their elevation of the chanted Mass as the liturgical ideal, period.
What you apparently have yet to discover is that “chant” in its various inculcations (Gregorian, Ambrosian, Gallican, Sarum, Syriac, Corsican even) is NOT regarded in any way as QUOTE “music” per se. Liturgical chants are, for lack of better descriptors, languages unto themselves, a perfect melding between the sacral texts and melodic vehicles that are servants to those texts in such a way that no one would dispute their suitability for elevating those texts.

The Girm doesn’t require chant. That is all I’m going to say on this.

It’s really not all that complicated. The problem in an ecclesial sense is that your curricula includes so much stuff about being facilitators in so many sociological and economic situations that it’s too easy to forget that the parish begins and ends at the altar on Sundays.

ok yes that is true. But I’m in no way suggesting that priests should be facilitators in sociological or economic situations. All I’m saying is that if we put so much focus on the chanting or the music aspect of the Mass that a priest will sacrifice his very necessary priestly duties is problematic in my eyes. Again I’m still a seminarian but I would be surprised if I would be able to do the necessary preparations to chant the entire mass (learn the gospel, review mass parts, get proper rest to do the parts well, prepare a homily, etc.) and give the other necessary attention to the other aspects of being a priest.

For example lets say a priest gets a call at 10PM at night gets a call that one of his parishioners is about to die. He knows this will take up a couple hours of his night and he won’t get good sleep. He has an early morning mass at 8am which he will have to chant a lot of the mass and he is worried the lack of sleep will cause him not to chant as well and maybe detract from the Mass. (note if he could speak the mass that is no issue) he decides not to go. Now he could have gone if he didn’t have to worry about it.

My whole point to this is that if you put so much pressure on a priest to get a Mass a certain way that will dominate the work he has for that week especially in parishes where he doesn’t have much support in putting these things together. Essential ministry of a priest (ministry to the sick, ministry to the in prison, etc) will lack.

Look I want mass to be a as beautiful as possible but putting so much pressure on the priest that he lacks in his other ministry isn’t good.

Personally I don’t think chanting the mass is the magic bullet or even really an effective way to fix the problems we have in the world. Not saying this is the priests job, but he can still do a lot of good. Note: not talking about liberation theology.

I don’t want to argue this. I don’t think this is the argument used in vatican II and Pope Paul VI along with a few other major thinkers in the Church in going in the direction they went in. But the church has moved away from the amount of chant they use in the EF. What i’m arguing is my own opinion and not necessarily the thought of the Church. BUT the church to my knowledge does’t require the amount of chant which you and youngtrad are suggesting. Sure your not exactly suggesting things but the way you argue makes my mind set (chant only parts) look like in disagreement with the Church or in disagreement with good liturgy.

 

[catholictiger]

When you properly and rightly sing the Mass, it is not that you are “singing songs and adding stuff” to the Mass. Rather, it is that you are celebrating Mass in its most perfect form.

When you recite the Mass, in whole or in part, then to a lesser or greater degree, you are “taking things off of” the Mass.

A sung Mass is not a regular Mass with stuff added onto it. No. A recited Mass is a sung Mass with all the singing stripped from it.

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with this. But I hope you realize that the documents don’t require it or strongly suggest it. The way you and the other poster are arguing makes it sound like you require more than the Church, at-least my understanding of its teaching, suggests.

 

[Latinitas]

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with this. But I hope you realize that the documents don’t require it or strongly suggest it.

Tradition, especially the practice of Eastern Churches in this regard, strongly recommends it. Missae Lectatae only became popular in the scholastic age, when it allowed the faithful int he Crusades to hear Mass quicker. A Missa Lectata is not a bad Mass, but as YoungTradCatholic said, more important Masses, such as Sundays and important Solemnities should be sung. Music is integral to the liturgy.

The way you and the other poster are arguing makes it sound like you require more than the Church, at-least my understanding of its teaching, suggests.

ibid.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

 

[27lw]

Wow - - this has been really interesting reading all the replies, especially from the seminarian. It has clarified a lot for me. Also, I think one thing to keep in mind, is that we are still short on priests. Maybe one day we will have plenty of priests again, and we will have enough to go on night sick calls, and some who will have time (somehow) to keep up on the chants, and one person won’t always have to wear so many hats.
I wish you all the best, catholictiger, and I hope I didn’t come across as snarky. I thank God for all the great priests around us, sacrificing and serving the Church. I am in awe of all the wonderful men going into the priesthood.

 

[catholictiger]

Tradition, especially the practice of Eastern Churches in this regard, strongly recommends it. Missae Lectatae only became popular in the scholastic age, when it allowed the faithful int he Crusades to hear Mass quicker. A Missa Lectata is not a bad Mass, but as YoungTradCatholic said, more important Masses, such as Sundays and important Solemnities should be sung. Music is integral to the liturgy.

ibid.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

if you guys can show me where in the GIRM (or other juridical document) it says that we should chant all the Mass parts please show me. Again I trust the Church more than anything (well other than Christ).

Music I agree is very important to the liturgy I don’t disagree at all. I want to chant the mass as much as possible, I just don’t know if what you are suggesting is what is most needed for the Mass and the new evangelization. I trust the Church and if she in her juridical docuemnts and from the studying I’ve done NOTHING shows me that chant should be a part of all the mass.

I think chant should be a bigger part of max yes I don’t disagree with you there at all. But I don’t know if an complete chanted mass is what is needed.

I hope I have made my points clear. I don’t think my views are liberal or something, I just try to follow the Church.

I don’t want to discuss this anymore I feel like this may make some people here thing less of me.

God bless.

 

[catholictiger]

Wow - - this has been really interesting reading all the replies, especially from the seminarian. It has clarified a lot for me. Also, I think one thing to keep in mind, is that we are still short on priests. Maybe one day we will have plenty of priests again, and we will have enough to go on night sick calls, and some who will have time (somehow) to keep up on the chants, and one person won’t always have to wear so many hats.
I wish you all the best, catholictiger, and I hope I didn’t come across as snarky. I thank God for all the great priests around us, sacrificing and serving the Church. I am in awe of all the wonderful men going into the priesthood.

thanks for the prayer and the support.

What I was trying to explain there is that priests are called to minister to the people of God. It is a incorrect idea to think that priests should put more emphasis so to speak on other sacraments rather than others. A elderly lady about to die shouldn’t have to wait on the sacraments because the priest is to tried on a saturday night to go minister to him and he didn’t want to be tired to go minister to her and give her last rights.

I want priests who don’t treat their priesthood like a job, a 8am to 4pm thing. If a priest gets a call from someone who is sick in the hospital who may be nearing death I hope he is always willing to go to the best of his ability. Even if its at 11pm at night right before he goes to bed I hope he is willing to go. I want holy priests who have a deep loving relationship with Christ and prefer nothing else to him. I want priests who courageously peach the truth in a charitable way. I want priests who know the scripture like its the back of their hand, and I want priests to preach on scripture with the mind of the Church. I could go on and on but being able to chant the mass isn’t a high priority and I don’t think a high priority in the majority of seminaries.

I think chanting the mass is a very good goal to have and I don’t disagree with you on this, but I fear putting to much focus on this is problematic we have more important things to worry about in the Church rather than having priests who can chant the mass.

I’m not as far separated as I think some of you think. I mostly agree with you I just think some of you take it to far.

God Bless
I’m done.

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

Replying as TCCOV:

Brother Tiger,
I regret that you have mistaken the intent of my responses as “demands” upon each and every celebrant. In reviewing the thread of comments I’m convinced we have engaged in cross-talking passed one another. For myself, I was stating traditional, historical and canonical precedences that bear out the “cantillated” liturgy as THE IDEAL. The GIRM is an “explicator” document of options/prescriptions for the execution of the “red and black” of the Missale Romanum/Roman Missal. Without going further into documental citation (of which you’re understandably disinclined) at least take into account the following:

1. From either a progressivist or traditionalist perspective, our heritage of chant hearkens back to the priestly temple rites of the Hebrews. And these persisted and evolved through the Greco-Roman accretions to the rites.
2. Our Lord Himself upon the institution of the Eucharist, joined with his disciples in singing the Hallel psalms prior to the words of sacrificial anamnesis in the upper room.
3. Look through the entire Missal itself. If there were no implied mandate for the priestly orations to be chanted, why are they all set to formulaic melodies?

You are, of course, right to defer not to chant your orations when you become ordained. But I pray and hope you might experience a fully chanted Mass (by that I mean each priestly oration, save the homily but including the gospel) a number of times before you form your final opinion upon its value.

Should you wish to delve further into canonical/traditional/historical precedence, I would recomment Wm Mahrt’s THE MUSICAL SHAPE OF THE LITURGY, Anthony Ruff OSB- SACRED MUSIC AND THE REFORM OF THE ROMAN RITE, or for a much easier, informal read, Jeffrey Tucker’s SING LIKE A CATHOLIC (can be read in a day.)

Bless you in your vocation.