Priest skips the penitential rite prayer

[marci]

I started thinking about this after reading another thread. What happens if the priest skips the prayer “I Confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters…”?
Are venial sins still forgiven? Should we say the prayer to ourselves? If so, can it be said at anytime during the opening of the Mass? Is our priest correct in skipping this prayer?

Thanks

Marci

 

[edward_george]

The priest is not correct in skipping the Penitential Rite, however another form of it may have been used–there are a few options for it in the Novus Ordo Missae, one of which begins with the Confiteor (I confess). The other forms start either with the Kyrie (Lord have mercy) or the shortened form of the Kyrie.

Venial sins are normally remitted during this part of the Mass, however venial sins may be remitted at any time by the faithful by sincerely praying an act of contrition. Receiving Holy Communion also remits venial sin.

-ACEGC

 

[marci]

Thank you, edward george.

 

[John_Lilburne]

The priest is not correct in skipping the Penitential Rite, however another form of it may have been used–there are a few options for it in the Novus Ordo Missae…
-ACEGC

The priest is correct in skipping the Penitential Rite if he has the Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling of Holy Water.

From Roman Missal, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1985, page 358:
“RITE OF BLESSING AND SPRINKLING HOLY WATER
When this rite is celebrated it takes the place of the penitential rite at the beginning of Mass. The Kyrie is also omitted.”

2002 GIRM n. 51: “On Sundays, especially in the Season of Easter, in place of the customary Act of Penitence, from time to time the blessing and sprinkling of water to recall Baptism may take place.”

The Penitential Rite is also omitted in Mass combined with Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer (see General Introduction to the Liturgy of the Hours, n. 94 and 96).

Directory for Masses with Children: “40. … It is sometimes permissible to omit one or other element of the introductory rite or perhaps expand another element. There should always be at least some introductory element, which is completed by the opening prayer.”

 

[japhy]

The priest is not correct in skipping the Penitential Rite, however another form of it may have been used–there are a few options for it in the Novus Ordo Missae, one of which begins with the Confiteor (I confess). The other forms start either with the Kyrie (Lord have mercy) or the shortened form of the Kyrie.

Does Form B of the Penitential Rite really count as including the Kyrie?

Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Lord, show us your mercy and love.
And grant us your salvation.

I find it hard to believe that is equivalent to the Kyrie.

 

[benedictgal]

Does Form B of the Penitential Rite really count as including the Kyrie?

Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Lord, show us your mercy and love.
And grant us your salvation.

I find it hard to believe that is equivalent to the Kyrie.

During the Mass for the Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God, Pope Benedict XVI used the version japhy just quoted. However, afterwards, the Sistene Chapel Choir launched into the Kyrie.

The Kyire to which japy refers is the:

Lord, you were sent to heal the contrite:
Kyrie Eleison.

Lord Jeus, you are Son of God and Son of Mary:
Christe Eleison

Lord you are the Way that leads to the Father:
Kyrie Eleison.

I may have gotten the texts mixed up (I don’t have my missal with me at work; there are several invocations to this version), but, I think you get the general idea. When this formula is used (option 3), then you don’t need the Confiteor nor the extra Kyrie.

 

[japhy]

I may have gotten the texts mixed up (I don’t have my missal with me at work; there are several invocations to this version), but, I think you get the general idea. When this formula is used (option 3), then you don’t need the Confiteor nor the extra Kyrie.

Just to clear things up…

The Sacramentary lists three forms (A, B, and C) for the Penitential Rite.

Form A is the Confiteor: I confess, to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters…

Form B is a brief call-and-response:Lord, we have sinned against you:
Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Lord, show us your mercy and love.
And grant us your salvation.

Form C is a set of three invocations (such as the following, but there are at least a dozen versions provided in the Sacramentary):Lord Jesus, you were sent to heal the contrite: Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Lord Jesus, you are Son of God and Son of Mary: Christ, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.

Lord Jesus, you are the Way that leads to the Father: Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

After the Penitential Rite, the Kyrie is then invoked, unless it has already been used in the Penitential Rite. The Kyrie, properly, is:Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.

Christe eleison.
Christe eleison.

Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.
It is often said in the vernacular (Lord, have mercy; Christ, have mercy; Lord, have mercy).

My impression is that only Form C of the Penitential Rite contains the Kyrie; thus, it is required after Form A (the Confiteor) and Form B (which I don’t know a “name” for). Seeing as how the Pope had the Kyrie invoked by the choir after Form B, I would guess I am correct in that regard. Furthermore, to use multiple forms of the Penitential Rite (such as Form A followed by Form C) is incorrect; the Confiteor (Form A) must be followed by the Kyrie, not by Form C of the Penitential Rite.

 

[benedictgal]

Just to clear things up…

After the Penitential Rite, the Kyrie is then invoked, unless it has already been used in the Penitential Rite. The Kyrie, properly, is:Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.

Christe eleison.
Christe eleison.

Kyrie eleison.
Kyrie eleison.
It is often said in the vernacular (Lord, have mercy; Christ, have mercy; Lord, have mercy).

My impression is that only Form C of the Penitential Rite contains the Kyrie; thus, it is required after Form A (the Confiteor) and Form B (which I don’t know a “name” for). Seeing as how the Pope had the Kyrie invoked by the choir after Form B, I would guess I am correct in that regard.

You’re right!!!

It was actually nice to see Pope Benedict use form B on Sunday. The Kyrie that the Sistene Chapel Choir used was rather long, but, it was nice. The Gloria was also nice and was different from the one they usually sing. I would love to get the music for the parts of the Mass they sang (including the Kyrie).

 

[smithec]

I was specifically searching for a thread about this exact topic, and just came across this one. While reading through the missal a few weeks ago I noticed that form B is to be followed with the Kyrie which our priest never does. He almost always uses Form B only, with no Kyrie. Sometimes he will use form C, but I don’t ever recall him using Form A since we have been attending this Parish (several years now).

I personally like Form B (it seems our priest does also) but I miss never saying the Confiteor or the Kyrie, and I wonder what this does to the validity of the Penitential rite.

Is there something that we as the Laity should do to help our priests with an issue like this? Are we required to submit this to the bishop? Is this by chance a change to the Missal that the Bishop might have authorized? I know they can determine when people sit and stand, but can they make a change like this also?

Thanks.
-Ed

 

[YADA]

Is there something that we as the Laity should do to help our priests with an issue like this?

Your parish probably has a liturgy team that works with the priest … the composition probably includes music ministers [paid staff and or volunteers], environment [the poeple who place flowers, banners, tapestries … change the liturgical colors, etc], those who assist in the preparation of the various special liturgies throughout the year [Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, Easter, Ordinary TIme, Pentacost and the various feast days and Solemnities, etc] - those who provide training for Lectors, Altar Servers, ExtraOrdinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Ushers… the Sacristan, etc.

Offer to join and assist … there are many liturgies beyond Mass … funerals, weddings, Liturgy of the Hours, Benedictions, etc … I am sure they would be most grateful for your time and talent …

Once you gain a perspective of the Liturgy you could suggest variations to your Pastor …

We usually begin our meetings with an educational piece … a topic from the GIR or a Church Document on Liturgy … then we get down to the planning and work … The liturgies in your parish do not happen in a vacuum nor can your pastor do it all … large parishes may have more staff but there are armies of volunteers who work many hours … small parishes really depend upon volunteers to help out … and knowledgable ones!

 

[japhy]

While reading through the missal a few weeks ago I noticed that form B is to be followed with the Kyrie which our priest never does. He almost always uses Form B only, with no Kyrie. Sometimes he will use form C, but I don’t ever recall him using Form A since we have been attending this Parish (several years now).

What Missal were you looking in? I’m just curious if there’s one that says it explicitly. The current English Sacramentary is almost ambiguous on the matter, but I am certain it means that the Kyrie follows forms A and B, but not form C.

Is there something that we as the Laity should do to help our priests with an issue like this? Are we required to submit this to the bishop? Is this by chance a change to the Missal that the Bishop might have authorized? I know they can determine when people sit and stand, but can they make a change like this also?

1. The first thing you should do is ask your priest. Be prepared to present the information you have to him: an excerpt from a Missal or some other source. The more authoritative (like my verbatim quoting of the Sacramentary on my blog), the better.
2. If your priest refuses to listen to you, you may take the matter first to the head of your Deanery, then to the Bishop’s vicar general, then the Bishop.
3. This change – omitting the Kyrie – is not a permitted one under the circumstances you have described. If it is a simple mistake (i.e., the priest thinks it is not required because he misunderstands the rubrics), that is understandable; intentionally altering the Order of Mass so as to remove the Kyrie is not permitted.