Priest Title

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So… even priest you have never met violated your trust? :eek:

I’m sorry to hear that.

I don’t have that history. I can’t say that ANY priest I have met has violated my trust. One told some people how old I was when I didn’t want him to, but that’s about it. 😛
My original post was about a particular Father if you took the time to read it.
The thread then changed into a general discussion about the title of Father and all Im suggesting is priests should honour the title as to me it is one of the most sacred names in the world…unfortunately in the REAL world some priests are as capable of cruel sin as anyone else.

I never suggested I do not refer to ALL priests as Father, I assume their integrity is honorable so have no problem calling them Father other than that of what Jesus said about calling no-one on earth Father (which no-one wants to address by the way)

My discomfort is in calling a particular priest Father.
 
So… even priest you have never met violated your trust? :eek:

I’m sorry to hear that.

I don’t have that history. I can’t say that ANY priest I have met has violated my trust. One told some people how old I was when I didn’t want him to, but that’s about it. 😛
My thread has been about a particular Father if you took the time to read it.
The thread then changed into a general discussion about the title of Father and all Im suggesting is priests should honour the title as to me it is one of the most sacred names in the world…unfortunately in the REAL world some priests are as capable of cruel sin as anyone else.

I never suggested I do not refer to ALL priests as Father, I assume their integrity is honorable so have no problem calling them Father other than that of what Jesus said about calling no-one on earth Father (which no-one wants to address by the way)

My discomfort is in calling a particular priest Father.😊
 
When I was involved in a children’s liturgy programme about 20 years ago, the women who ran it would refer any questions about it to “Father”, name unspecified. “Father told us to do it this way”, “I asked Father and he said…” As a recent convert, I found this unusual and a little unsettling, as though they couldn’t remember which of our three priests they had asked, or maybe they thought it didn’t matter - just “Father” was authority enough. Is this common anywhere else? (I’m in southern Ontario)
I don’t now how common it is, but I do know it’s not uncommon.

A few years ago, one of the parishes in our area had the priest reassigned and they had a new priest. I asked a friend, ‘what’s your priest’s name?’ :confused:

Know what she told me? “Father”

Poor thing. 😃

But it was pretty funny 😛
 
If you read what I quoted, you would not be asking this question…the word ‘Father’ is sacred to me and carries a responsibilty of integrity.

Once again I’ll say Jesus said ‘Call no-one on earth your Father’ so I just think it was a bit arrogant of the Church to disregard this and call themselves Fathers.

Its pretty self-explanatory…I dont think a priest who has violated my trust is deserving of this sacred name, does that make it clearer for you?

And if we are referring to Gods moral law it was He who said ‘Call no-one on earth your Father’…Im not talking about a social trend at all
Whaaat??? :confused:
 
My discomfort is in calling a particular priest Father.😊
If you do not want to address him as ‘Father’, what would you like to call him?

In civil society, we still address people respectfully, when possible. Maybe you could call him by his last name only. So, instead of Fr. Frank Thomas, just say, ‘Thomas’… which is still kind of disrespectful… but I think it would be less causing of scandal (which is pretty rude) than calling him Old Dirty Dog Thomas or something.

Would you feel better calling him ‘Reverand’? Or maybe ‘Mister’?

‘Reverand’ would be acceptable. I believe that ‘Mister’ would not…

… as for your scripture references, I believe the book of Matthew tells what we are to do when we have conflict with another. It does not include avoiding addressing him. 😊
 
If you do not want to address him as ‘Father’, what would you like to call him?

In civil society, we still address people respectfully, when possible. Maybe you could call him by his last name only. So, instead of Fr. Frank Thomas, just say, ‘Thomas’… which is still kind of disrespectful… but I think it would be less causing of scandal (which is pretty rude) than calling him Old Dirty Dog Thomas or something.

Would you feel better calling him ‘Reverand’? Or maybe ‘Mister’?

‘Reverand’ would be acceptable. I believe that ‘Mister’ would not…

… as for your scripture references, I believe the book of Matthew tells what we are to do when we have conflict with another. It does not include avoiding addressing him. 😊
Unfortunately, in the last 30 years, society has all but stopped using the titular modes of address. Just look at how many people write “Obama” instead of “President Obama,” and how many teachers are on a mutual first name basis with their students.

Heck, I didn’t know my teachers’ first names until report card time!
 
If you do not want to address him as ‘Father’, what would you like to call him?

In civil society, we still address people respectfully, when possible. Maybe you could call him by his last name only. So, instead of Fr. Frank Thomas, just say, ‘Thomas’… which is still kind of disrespectful… but I think it would be less causing of scandal (which is pretty rude) than calling him Old Dirty Dog Thomas or something.

Would you feel better calling him ‘Reverand’? Or maybe ‘Mister’?

‘Reverand’ would be acceptable. I believe that ‘Mister’ would not…

… as for your scripture references, I believe the book of Matthew tells what we are to do when we have conflict with another. It does not include avoiding addressing him. 😊/QU

I havn’t heard priests called Reverend in the Catholic Church, it would be too obvious if I started calling him something different, where as if I just say Hello he won’t notice, trying to avoid causing offence.

Ultimately I can keep calling him Father with discomfort, just to avoid offending. It just doesn’t feel right in my heart I guess.

Thanks I will see what Matthew says about conflict
 
To add to the conversation, it is tradition, or at least the parishes I have seen, for Vietnamese to address their priest with the full name: Cha Mai Kai Hoang [Father First Middle Last Name].

When I went went to American parishes after moving away form home, it took some time for me to learn to use a priest’s first or last name only. In particular, it took a while to use first names.
 
the title “father” is claimed by Paul in reference to his relationship with Timothy and others he ordained, and with his flock in the various churches he addresses, so quite early
Please could you kindly provide some references to that claim? Bible passages please.

Thanks in advance
 
The title “Father” is a very ancient title of respect. It predates the Church and is not just Catholic. It was common in Asia and India too. The ancient Asians and Indians would refer to the leader of the clan as Good Father. It was applied to priests, Eastern Rite deacons, and religious superiors (be they priests or not) from the early days of the Church. It denotes spiritual fatherhood. Hence the term, Patriarch.

It is often used in the local language or in one of the ancient languages: such as Abbot or Abba. In some religious communities where the vocation to the brotherhood is the focus, those brothers who are ordained go by Brother, not Father. But that’s a tradition of certain communities. That often gets confusing for the stranger, because many people believe that a brother is a seminarian. So when they hear that Brother Jack is hearing confessions, they get confused. We always have to explain that some brothers are also priests, when someone asks to go to confession. We make it a point to use the word, ALSO. This helps people understand that he’s both, a brother and a priest.

There is no hard and fast rule regarding calling a diocesan priest Fr Last Name. It’s a cultural thing. Among Hispanics it’s not done. All priests are called Fr. Joseph, Fr. John and so forth. In some cultures, especially some African cultures, they use Papa N, because they continue to use European titles. They too use the first name. When they go to Europe or the USA they use the last name. In certain parts of Italy, Spain and Portugal, diocesan priests are called Don, which is the equivalent of Mr. in English. Hence we have Don Bosco. If you read some of the of the Italian articles on Msgr. Georg, without an “e”, the Holy Father’s secretary, some refer to him as Padre and others as Don. It depends on where the writer is from. We used Mr. in the USA until the mid - 1800s, for diocesan priests and Father for religious.

The same happens in many of the mendicant communities. Some use Father in the USA, but Friar in other countries. Our brothers in Italy, Spain, and Portugal are all Fra, which is short for Frater. In France we’re called Frere, which is Brother. In some of the Canadian provinces we go by Friar. The southern region in the USA goes by Brother. Father and Brother are more commonly used in other parts of the USA. The reason is that the first friars who came to the southeastern USA were Spaniards. They went by Brother. When it got translated, it became Brother. In our community the superior is always called Father, whether he is ordained or not. But that dates back to 1209 when Francis of Assisi was called Father by the brothers, even though he referred to himself as Brother Francis. To this day, we still say our Father Francis or our Holy Father Francis. Notice the use of the Holy Father. That’s because in the 13th century the Pope was not called Holy Father. He was called Lord or Your Holiness. It was the Lord Pope.

The same thing happens with Bishops. In the Latin countries, including the Latin countries of Europe: Francw, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Rumania, Roman Catholic bishops are often called Monsignor, from the ancient title, My Lord. But in Ireland and in certain parts of the UK they are called Dr. or Your Grace. They are called Doctor, because you have to be a doctor to be a bishop.

Among many of the Benedictine branches the priests are called Abba. In fact there are references to Thomas Merton as Abba Louis, which was his religious name.

In my community we still have religious names, so do other branches of the Franciscan family and other communities too. But we use the religious name with a title, not a last name. For example, mine is Jason Richard of Manassas, hence the JR. There is an old custom in some orders to call the religious by their place of origin, not by their surname. That’s St. Francis was, Brother Francis of Assisi. Franciscans have an interesting tradition that goes back to St. Francis, calling friars by nickname, rather than their name. Francis actual name was John. But he was always Brother Francis. Some of the other brothers were also given nicknames and are remembered by those names. The custom of a religious name came long after Francis’ death. It was a custom borrowed from the Carmelites. Each religious family and diocese has its customs.

It’s really a matter of custom and culture. There are no hard and fast rules for the Roman Church. I believe that the Eastern Churches call all monks Father, ordained or not. Br. David, O’Carm knows more about this than I do. He’s Eastern Catholic. I know that they call all deacons, Father Deacon. In Latin America they are never called Deacon. They are called Reverend, from their canonical title, Reverend Mr if they are secular or Clerks Regular. Deacons who are mendicants or monks are Rev Brother. But Latin Americans call all deacons Reverend. It’s easier.

In our diocese the bishop has a policy that all secular priests go by their first name, just like the religious. I don’t know why this is, maybe because the Catholic community in our diocese is predominantly Hispanic and Haitian. But I’m just guessing. This policy was here before I came. They are all Fr. Joe, Fr. Jack, Fr. Jim and so forth. You can recognize the diocesan priests who come from the north, because they go by Fr. Smith and so forth.

This was a point of contention with EWTN and the Franciscans of the Eternal Word at one point. They go by Friar. EWTN translates everyone’s titles to Father and Brother. Eventually, EWTN won out based on the argument that they were an international network and it would require an explanation all the time. This actually made sense. What I do is listen to what the local people use and follow along.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Can anyone shed light on Jesus of Nazareth teaching about calling others “Father”?
 
Brother JR:

I assume, tho’, that regardless of one’s title according to their order (Fra, Dom, Padre, Canon, Friar, Brother, etc), no ordained priest would be offended or put out by being called “father”.

I also assume that in the confessional, even with His Holiness, it is, “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned…”

Shed any light in my darkness? 🙂

John
 
OK I’ll get on my soapbox, a person titled Father carries a responsibility to act as such, just as our Father in Heaven (and sorry just to be a man of cloth is not enough)
Im not giving grief, I am discussing a truth that you people seem afraid of hearing.
If my trust has been violated by a priest why should I give him the honorous address of Father just because he wears the cloth.
I was asking for advice on something sacred that has been violated for me and you people prefer to sweep it under the carpet.
Just because you are Christian it doesn’t mean you have to deny ugly truths in the Church because they are there!!
Do you carry this form of self-righteousness into other areas of your life, or just the Church? For instance, if your child’s teacher is not validly married, do you refuse to call her Mrs. Smith? Should people in the military not apply proper rank to those who they feel do not appropriately fill that role (boy, I can just picture THAT!)? Is the Queen of England now “Lizzie” because you don’t care for royalty.

Apart from the spiritual matters, “Father” is an honorific and it is simply rude not to use it. Save the soapbox for something else . . .
 
Blue River,

I think the problem that most of us are having with your posts is that we have no idea how this priest has hurt you!!! Since you still seem to be around him, why not take the issue up with him and let him know you have been hurt. If he did something “hurtful” he needs to be called on it so he can change.

And being a former priest, I can tell you that none of us would ever call ourselves “all-holy!” Just because we are ordained DOES NOT make us any holier than anyone else, we are to be striving for holiness like evey other person, that we often fail, makes us human and in need of God’s grace and forgiveness as well.

And here is a marvelous explanation of St. Matthew’s “Call no man 'Father:”

catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
 
Blue River,

I think the problem that most of us are having with your posts is that we have no idea how this priest has hurt you!!! Since you still seem to be around him, why not take the issue up with him and let him know you have been hurt. If he did something “hurtful” he needs to be called on it so he can change.

And being a former priest, I can tell you that none of us would ever call ourselves “all-holy!” Just because we are ordained DOES NOT make us any holier than anyone else, we are to be striving for holiness like evey other person, that we often fail, makes us human and in need of God’s grace and forgiveness as well.

And here is a marvelous explanation of St. Matthew’s “Call no man 'Father:”

catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
Thanks for the link
 
Brother JR:

I assume, tho’, that regardless of one’s title according to their order (Fra, Dom, Padre, Canon, Friar, Brother, etc), no ordained priest would be offended or put out by being called “father”.

I also assume that in the confessional, even with His Holiness, it is, “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned…”

Shed any light in my darkness? 🙂

John
Those are good questions. I’ll start with the second question on confession. “Bless me Father” is part of the rite of the sacrament. It makes no difference whether you are confessing to a presbyter or a bishop. The rite is what it is. Even the Holy Father uses, “Bless me Father when he goes to confession.” I don’t know how often he gets to hear confessions, probably never. But if he had to, you would say, “Bless me Father.”

On the other question. No one is offended if you call him Father, whether he is a priest, deacon or a brother. You always try to understand that people are trying to be polite. Good manners is a part of charity. So whether one is a priest or not, we do not get offended.

You use common sense. If it’s someone passing you on the street who says “Hello Father.” You simply say hello and keep going. If we’re working in a community where people are going to see us everyday, then we explain that we prefer to be called Brother. But we say it in such a way so as not to offend people for being polite and kind.

Among Franciscans every friar wears the same habit, according to his obedience and when we don’t wear a habit we wear a Roman collar. The clerics and lay brothers all wear habits or Roman collars. You can’t tell the friars apart. It’s done on purpose. People are going to call you Father. Surprisingly, Sir, is becoming more common these days. We don’t mind that either.

In those communities that have a Father Superior, just like women’s community’s that have a Mother Superior, we teach the people to call him Father Superior or simply Father, whether he’s a priest or not. But that’s only when the person is going to be dealing with us a lot. Otherwise, it’s not important. Our local superior is not a priest. But he is called Father. The laity who work in our pregnancy centers and our ministries, as well as those who come for services are tuaght to call him Father. We have two guys who are ordained and they are called Brother. But people who just walk in will call everyone in a habit, Father and no one minds. They’re being polite.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Those are good questions. I’ll start with the second question on confession. “Bless me Father” is part of the rite of the sacrament. It makes no difference whether you are confessing to a presbyter or a bishop. The rite is what it is. Even the Holy Father uses, “Bless me Father when he goes to confession.” I don’t know how often he gets to hear confessions, probably never. But if he had to, you would say, “Bless me Father.”

On the other question. No one is offended if you call him Father, whether he is a priest, deacon or a brother. You always try to understand that people are trying to be polite. Good manners is a part of charity. So whether one is a priest or not, we do not get offended.

You use common sense. If it’s someone passing you on the street who says “Hello Father.” You simply say hello and keep going. If we’re working in a community where people are going to see us everyday, then we explain that we prefer to be called Brother. But we say it in such a way so as not to offend people for being polite and kind.

Among Franciscans every friar wears the same habit, according to his obedience and when we don’t wear a habit we wear a Roman collar. The clerics and lay brothers all wear habits or Roman collars. You can’t tell the friars apart. It’s done on purpose. People are going to call you Father. Surprisingly, Sir, is becoming more common these days. We don’t mind that either.

In those communities that have a Father Superior, just like women’s community’s that have a Mother Superior, we teach the people to call him Father Superior or simply Father, whether he’s a priest or not. But that’s only when the person is going to be dealing with us a lot. Otherwise, it’s not important. Our local superior is not a priest. But he is called Father. The laity who work in our pregnancy centers and our ministries, as well as those who come for services are tuaght to call him Father. We have two guys who are ordained and they are called Brother. But people who just walk in will call everyone in a habit, Father and no one minds. They’re being polite.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thanks, Bro. (<- that’s what we called the Christian Brothers in school. That, or “Brudder”.)

I see so many Roman collars on non-priests, 'tain’t funny – and that includes Catholic deacons (addressed as “Deacon”). If I don’t know if someone is an ordained priest, I go with “Padre” (proper form of address for any [ex-] military).

I met a Polish chaplain once in the field (on maneuvers) in Germany. I asked if he was a Catholic priest. He grinned and pointed to his head and said, “Of course. Can you not tell by my halo?”
 
Do we have to call priests Father or can we call them by their name only?
Malleus: No Priest should ever be offended by being addressed as Father and no Catholic should ever be embarrased to call them Father.

Some Secular Priests are simply addressed as Father (Last Name) Others who belong to an Order enter under the patronage of the Saints. I know of a Dominican Father who took the Name of Pope St Gregory the Great so he is addressed as Father Gregory.

Its a matter of respect for Holy Orders.

Pax
 
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