Priest to me today: The Lutherans have valid eucharist

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I was absolutely shocked. Our priest, who is at least into his 60s, if not 70s, told me in a meeting with him that the Anglicans and Lutherans both have valid holy orders and a valid Eucharist.

“They may not know they have it” - “They may not want to call it transubstantiation…”

Anyone care to comment on this? Is this true to Catholic doctrine?
 
I was absolutely shocked. Our priest, who is at least into his 60s, if not 70s, told me in a meeting with him that the Anglicans and Lutherans both have valid holy orders and a valid Eucharist.

“They may not know they have it” - “They may not want to call it transubstantiation…”

Anyone care to comment on this? Is this true to Catholic doctrine?
That is certainly not what the Church teaches. In fact, Pope Leo XIII wrote a Papal Bull on the matter. According to the New Advent Encyclopedia:
In this passage the Bull sanctions the principle that a sacramental rite must signify definitely what it is to effect, and that this definite signification must be in the essential “form”, or words in proximate connection with the “matter”; also that, in the case of Holy Order, what must be definitely signified is, in the ordination of priests, the Order of the Priesthood or its grace and power, and similarly in the consecration of bishops; the grace and power in each having reference to the accomplishment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
This principle accepted, it follows at once that the Anglican Ordinal, at least as it stood till 1662, lacks the essential conditions of sufficiency. But the Bull further examines how far the remainder of this Ordinal, or the circumstances under which it came into being, can be held to determine the ambiguity of the “essential form”. And here it sanctions the judgment which the Catholic writers had already formed. “The history,” it says, “of that time is sufficiently eloquent as to the animus of the authors of the Ordinal against the Catholic Church; as to the abettors whom they associated with themselves from heterodox sects; and as to the end in view . . . . Under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the liturgical order in many ways to suit the errors of the Reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, but every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out. In this way the native character — or spirit, as it is called — of the Ordinal clearly manifests itself. Hence, if, vitiated in its origin, it was wholly insufficient to confer orders, it was impossible that in the course of time it should become sufficient, since it remained always what it was (i.e. of vitiated origin) . . . . For once a new rite has been initiated, in which, as we have seen, the Sacrament of Orders is adulterated or denied, and from which all idea of consecration and sacrifice has been rejected, the formula, “Receive the Holy Spirit” (the Spirit, namely, which is infused into the soul with the grace of the Sacrament) no longer holds good, and so the words “for the office and work of a priest or bishop”, and the like, no longer hold good, but remain as words without the reality which Christ instituted.”
Likewise in regard to the defect of intention, the Bull endorses the judgment adverse to Anglican ordination which Catholic writers had always urged. “When anyone has rightly and seriously made use of the due “form” and “matter” requisite for effecting or conferring the sacrament, he is considered by that very fact to do what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church, and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of a sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to, and destructive of, the sacrament.”
These are the defects in the Anglican Succession, on the existence of which the Bull bases its decision. It will be noticed that they are of the most fundamental kind, and are independent of any defects that may be thought to arise out of the omission in the Ordinal of a tradition of the instruments, or of the doubt about Barlow’s consecration. To examine into the nature and bearing of the latter when a sufficient basis for a certain conclusion had been supplied by the former would have been a superfluous task, and for the same reason it is unlikely that even for the private inquirer these other considerations will retain in the future the interest they had in the past. At the same time the Bull has in no way pronounced them to be frivolous or unfounded, as has been suggested. It remains to give the formal definition of the Bull, which is in the following terms: “Wherefore, strictly adhering in this matter to the decrees of the Pontiffs Our Predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by Our authority, of Our own motion and certain knowledge We pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been and are absolutely null and void.”
You can find the whole thing here at:

newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm

I hope this helps answer your question as to the invalidity (if there is such a word) of Anglican orders.
 
I was absolutely shocked. Our priest, who is at least into his 60s, if not 70s, told me in a meeting with him that the Anglicans and Lutherans both have valid holy orders and a valid Eucharist.

“They may not know they have it” - “They may not want to call it transubstantiation…”

Anyone care to comment on this? Is this true to Catholic doctrine?
1 in a 1000 chance with a an Anglican “dutch touch” ordination and the right intention, matter and form (although it would still be schismatic).

“absolutely null and utterly void” - Leo XIII
 
I was absolutely shocked. Our priest, who is at least into his 60s, if not 70s, told me in a meeting with him that the Anglicans and Lutherans both have valid holy orders and a valid Eucharist.

“They may not know they have it” - “They may not want to call it transubstantiation…”

Anyone care to comment on this? Is this true to Catholic doctrine?
No. Four requirements of validity:

(1) Form - text used must be approved by both the bishops and the Vatican (I understand that the Anglican Rite form has been invalidated by Quo Primum if not by Pope Leo XIII)
(2) Matter - maybe
(3) Intent - maybe
(4) Minister - not valid if not ordained by a bishop of Apostolic Succession. (benedictgal has provided evidence of this invalidity.) Lutheranism has no Apostolic Successors as Martin Luther couldn’t ordain anyone. Only way around this (as far as I can see) is if a Catholic priest leaves the Church to become a Lutheran.
 
Maybe he was thinking of the Anglicans and Lutherans coming back into communion with Rome. Some priests do get confused by this. I know we expect them to be experts with everything about the Church, but they are not. I had a priest who is a great teacher and knows a lot of aspects of the Roman Catholic faith, but he thought that Ukrainian Catholics do the sign of the cross with both hands. Well, only the Bishops does a sign of the cross with both hands when he gives a blessing, and its for the Byzantine Rite, not just the Ukrainians.
 
I believe that many priests forget what they’ve learned.Its understandable.I knew a priest who forgot the ten commandments.they deal with important issues of the day like abortion and oftentimes forget the fundamentals.That doesn’t make them bad priests just human.
 
I remember a joke:

The pastor and his assistant pastor arguing about the validity of the Protestant’s Sacraments. The pastor believes that their sacraments are valid, the vicar insist that all protestants shall be burned on stake. They wrote about the controversy to the bishop, the bishop asks the Holy Inquisition, and month later based on the answer the bishop writes “Parochus asinus, capellanus suspendatur ab altare” (The pastor is a stupid ***, the vicar is supended). The pastor read it to the vicar and says: It is OK that I am and old ***, but I refuse to hang you above the altar.
 
I understand that a handful of Anglican ministers have had their ordinations “supplemented” by an ordination performed by an Old Catholic bishop. As the Old Catholic Church has valid (but illicit) holy orders, I imagine that sacraments performed by one who has been so ordained could likewise be valid (but illicit) if they conformed to proper form and intent. I assume that’s what OratoryMatt means by the “Dutch touch”.

I don’t think there’s another way that Anglicans or Lutherens could have valid Eucharist according to Roman Catholic criteria.
 


I don’t think there’s another way that Anglicans or Lutherens could have valid Eucharist according to Roman Catholic criteria.
I know of one other way.
One of my shirttail relatives is a validly ordained Jesuit priest who switched sides and is now an Episcopal priest. There are quite a few others like him. Their Masses are valid.
 
It’s my understanding that the Lutheran Church of Sweden might have valid Orders too.
 
I would question what the priest meant by a “valid” Eucharist. If he meant “valid” in a Roman Catholic sense, i.e. that there was a transubstantiation event occuring, even the Lutherans would deny that such happens in their Lord’s Supper.

If he meant that there was some sort of “Eucharistic grace” imparted during their rite, then he’s not mistaken.

I suspect the former, in which case he would have been mistaken.
 
I know of one other way.
One of my shirttail relatives is a validly ordained Jesuit priest who switched sides and is now an Episcopal priest. There are quite a few others like him. Their Masses are valid.
I know of an ex-priest who is now a minister in the Lutheran church. They don’t use Vatican-approved Missals, though much of it is similar. I don’t think they’re valid even if the minister is valid.
 
I was absolutely shocked. Our priest, who is at least into his 60s, if not 70s, told me in a meeting with him that the Anglicans and Lutherans both have valid holy orders and a valid Eucharist.

“They may not know they have it” - “They may not want to call it transubstantiation…”

Anyone care to comment on this? Is this true to Catholic doctrine?
What did your priest say when you asked him to clarify his comments? If you haven’t asked him what he meant, then maybe you should. I know I would.
 
What did your priest say when you asked him to clarify his comments? If you haven’t asked him what he meant, then maybe you should. I know I would
I said something to the effect of, “You mean that St. Paul’s Lutheran Church - the one down the road - can validly consecrate the Eucharist?” And he said back, “Yes. They may not know it, but they have a valid Eucharist. Anglicans have it too, even if they don’t call it transubstantiation. Their orders are valid.”

I’m definitely sure he was talking about confecting the Eucharist into the body and blood of Christ. Not just some light-hearted thing about sacrificial symbolism. I was absolutely shocked.
 
I know of an ex-priest who is now a minister in the Lutheran church. They don’t use Vatican-approved Missals, though much of it is similar. I don’t think they’re valid even if the minister is valid.
From an Anglican missal:

"[16] WHO the day before he suffered. He takes the Host, took bread into his holy and venerable hands. He lifts up his eyes to heaven, and lifting up his eyes to heaven unto thee, O God, his almighty Father, He bows his head. Giving thanks to thee. He signs over the Host, he bles+ sed, brake and gave to his disciples, saying: Take and eat all ye of this.

Holding the Host with both hands between the thumbs and forefingers, he utters the words of consecration secretly, distinctly, and attentively over the Host, and at the same time over all, if more are to be consecrated.

FOR THIS IS MY BODY"

Vatican approved or not, with a recycled Jesuit as minister and the words above, my bet would be on validity.
 
From an Anglican missal:
Latin or otherwise, it might even have the “correct” (translation of) words of institution but I believe Quo Primum (following Trent) invalidated all such rites created after 1370AD, if Pope Leo didn’t as well. The Anglican Mass had to be altered to make it valid as an Anglican Use inside the Church. Also the intention is to consecrate according to the wishes of the Church. (The Church has to supply that validity.) So I would think the Anglican Mass as such is deficient for validity.

There may be also the issue of copyrights (one church shouldn’t use another’s liturgical texts without permission or paying royalty fees) but that’s not pertinent here.
 
Also the intention is to consecrate according to the wishes of the Church. (The Church has to supply that validity.) So I would think the Anglican Mass as such is deficient for validity.
I agree completely with the bolded. Part of what makes for a valid celebration is that a priest intends to do what the Church intends him to do. The Church certainly does not intend even a validly ordained priest to illicitly celebrate the Eucharist outside of the boundaries of the Catholic Church. A priest who does such is acting in extreme disobedience against the pope, Canon law and the Church.
 
I understand that a handful of Anglican ministers have had their ordinations “supplemented” by an ordination performed by an Old Catholic bishop. As the Old Catholic Church has valid (but illicit) holy orders, I imagine that sacraments performed by one who has been so ordained could likewise be valid (but illicit) if they conformed to proper form and intent. I assume that’s what OratoryMatt means by the “Dutch touch”.

I don’t think there’s another way that Anglicans or Lutherens could have valid Eucharist according to Roman Catholic criteria.
That’s exactly what I was refering to, as I understand it some Anglican ordinations and consecrations have been performed with the assistance of Old Catholic bishops… which slightly muddies the waters of Apostolicae Curae, as Leo XIII was operating before such things occured. That said - you’re still talking 1000 to 1 I reckon, so pretty much “absolutely null and utterly void”!

😉
 
I said something to the effect of, “You mean that St. Paul’s Lutheran Church - the one down the road - can validly consecrate the Eucharist?” And he said back, “Yes. They may not know it, but they have a valid Eucharist. Anglicans have it too, even if they don’t call it transubstantiation. Their orders are valid.”

I’m definitely sure he was talking about confecting the Eucharist into the body and blood of Christ. Not just some light-hearted thing about sacrificial symbolism. I was absolutely shocked.
I know priests who say similar things. The issue is not confusion about the exact details of Apostolicae Curae. In my experience, it is part of a wider issue of deliberate disagreement with anything in the Church’s own teachings which separate it from protestantism.
 
Give it a break, seriously. I’m not trying to be rude, but seriously lay off. Priests sometimes have personal views, they may not be 100% sound, but you can’t help that. It’s hard to always have priests that are 100% orthodox. Some priests may be ex-Anglican for example, so they obviously will have a very hard time accepting the teaching that Anglican Eucharists are invalid. I am in no way promoting or supporting heresy, but people need to put their trust in the Church, and not just put their hands up in the air, screaming about when they find something that they don’t like. It’s not like they are deliberately teaching heresy, that would be a completely different situation. Perhaps they just need to be corrected on the matter? The Church, after all, is a divine institution, but is made up of men.
 
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