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happymommy
Guest
Yes, you will have to answer to God. Do you think He is going to like your answer?
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bankerdavid
Guest
We are taught that the most basic issue is the right to life. All other issues stem from this one. Without respect for life-all life, but more specifically innocent life, no other issue has a prayer to be resolved.
It is your opinion that one candidate’s other stances would lead to a worse situation, and that the other’s would lead to a better one.
It is not an opinion that the murder of 40 million children in 25 years is an abomination.
You say that this is one issue, but it encompasses all others. Would you say that slavery or civil rights was a one-issue issue?
Regardless, on the 5 non-negotiables, Obama co-sponsored the Freedom of Choice Act, consistently advocated for reproductive choice, opposed a partial birth abortion ban, supports tax-payer funding for abortion, opposes parental notification, opposes protecting babies who survive abortions. McCain was totally on the other side on all of these. Obama supports allowing uman cloning, embryonic stem cell research, same-sex marriage, while McCain supported embryonic stem cell research, but admitted that adult stem cells would eliminate the need.
Our church, almost universally, tells us that every human being has a right to life. But when you give carte blanche to the government to allow these evils and all those that led us down the road to this one-sex outside of marriage being the start of all this, we’re not listening to God, we’re listening to our own desires.
Remembering that God is unchangeable, immutable, tell me,
When did it become OK to murder? When did it become OK to have sex with someone outside of marriage? You don’t even have to ask about same-sex relationships because, by definition, they are outside of marriage.
Once we return to moral living, we will be able to start resolving other issues.
Specifically to the point of taking all the issues into account, I don’t know about you, but when I’ve been given a large number of problems to resolve, I go with the law of diminishing returns. I deal with the one that, once resolved, will do the most good, then tackle the next one, etc. When you stop and think of how many babies have been murdered since Roe v. Wade was enacted, the law which made abortion legal, which is now close to 50,000,000-the population sum of the 15 largest cities in the US, the total population of Canada, and more deaths than all the wars fought by and caused by the US and allies since it’s inception put together, this becomes, by orders of magnitude, the single biggest cause of death in our country.
But putting abortion aside, for just a moment, I wonder exactly how President Obama’s other positions would be so much better than what candidate McCain put forward?
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onaquest
Guest
I believe that God will know that I voted out of love. That I voted for a leader as opposed to against one. John McCain could address the Pro Life crowd with a veneer of caring for true Pro Lifers. But he is not against contraception, the root of the evil that leads to abortions. That has created an atmosphere in our society of “I’ll have what I want when I want”. He is not at the forefront of our fight against abortion.
Obama has much growth to do . He is lost when it comes to rationalizing his voting record when he himself is not for abortion. But I felt a kinship with him that bounded from the color of his skin. That the racial division in this country had a fighting chance of being healed. That I could be freed from the color barrier, that he would bring the hope and change that he dared to promise.
Please pray for him.
Pretty much that is what I would say to God. He knows my heart and he knows that it was the Right to Life movement that called me to his sacred church. It has been eight years since a tiny life in a womb spoke to me and told me that it was life and I have never looked back. Four aborted babies have spoken to me that way. Each of them calling me to acknowledge their prescence through God’s Holy Church. All of them aborted by close friends of mine who did it out of pride and selfishness. But do I cease to love them?
Obama has much growth to do . He is lost when it comes to rationalizing his voting record when he himself is not for abortion. But I felt a kinship with him that bounded from the color of his skin. That the racial division in this country had a fighting chance of being healed. That I could be freed from the color barrier, that he would bring the hope and change that he dared to promise.
Please pray for him.
Pretty much that is what I would say to God. He knows my heart and he knows that it was the Right to Life movement that called me to his sacred church. It has been eight years since a tiny life in a womb spoke to me and told me that it was life and I have never looked back. Four aborted babies have spoken to me that way. Each of them calling me to acknowledge their prescence through God’s Holy Church. All of them aborted by close friends of mine who did it out of pride and selfishness. But do I cease to love them?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Correct.
In fact, neither of the two candidates are pro-abortion, nor pro-life as pro-life orgs would like them to be. The term “Pro-abortion,” is is a divisive term people used as a politically weapon, and is not factual.
Obama does not believe that a moral issue as abortion, should be made by anyone other than the woman and her doctor.
He himself opposes abortion, but feels that it is not the governments place, to impose that belief onto anyone.
And contrary to pro-lifer’s understanding, not all abortions are done to kill an innocent baby, by a mother who doesn’t want the baby. Many are mothers who find out in the early term of their pregnancy, that their baby has a deformity that will not allow it to reach viability. Often, not even a heartbeat can be detected. For medical purposes, the doctors recommend that they terminate the pregnancy. If pro-lifers had their way, the mother would have to carry a dead fetus until her body rejected it, or it began to poison her system and risk her life.
We may disagree, but the fact is, Obama is not pro-abortion.
Jim
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happymommy
Guest
I find your comments about a still born baby to be sick! And it is a baby not a fetus! It may not make it to term, but we should never be given the choice to end the life of anyone, no matter how long they will live. We are not to play God! Are you suggesting that we should abort all children that could be born with a defect? That they don’t have a right to life? Obama is pro-choice! If you are not against it, you are for it!
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bankerdavid
Guest
Isn’t it for God to say who’s worthy and who’s not? God, the creator of all life, has a purpose when he creates that life. It’s not up to us to say this child shall live or die. We all have our crosses to bear, whether they be temporary or permanent. Besides, abortion does not only affect the mother. It’s most direct effect is on her, but long term, it affects the father and siblings as well.
It seems that part of the problem is that we don’t love God enough to trust him fully.
You are correct about both candidates being pro-contraception, which is also evil, but I still see McCain as the lesser of two evils.
I will pray for our new President, **( I do trust that God has a plan!)**but I feel that if I keep on supporting our pastor, who supports the people who are against everything God has taught me to believe, then I’m supporting those causes myself.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
happymommy;
Second, “fetus” the the stage of development that a human is at, when at the pre-viable stage. Just as the term “infant,” describes the stage of development which is different than “adult.”
Please try to understand what I said, and try keep your emotions in check when discussing this issue.
Try being in the shoes of a mother, who has to lose the baby she so much hoped for, before making such broad statements.
The term, “Abortion,” from a medical standpoint, is much broader than you’re using it.
God Bless
Jim
First off, my daughter went through the experience, of having to deliver a 20 month dead, fetus. The procedure, induced labor is an abortion.
Second, “fetus” the the stage of development that a human is at, when at the pre-viable stage. Just as the term “infant,” describes the stage of development which is different than “adult.”
I have a son who was born at 27 weeks, and has lived the past 28 years with cerebral palsy. There is no way my wife or myself would have ever aborted him. I’m not talking about a fetus which has a chance of surviving to viability.
Please try to understand what I said, and try keep your emotions in check when discussing this issue.
For reasons I posted, the statement is shallow and cruel in itself.
Try being in the shoes of a mother, who has to lose the baby she so much hoped for, before making such broad statements.
The term, “Abortion,” from a medical standpoint, is much broader than you’re using it.
God Bless
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
bankerdavid;
Remember, the medical definition of the term, "abortion,’ is the interruption of a pregnancy, for any reason.
A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
The procedure my daughter went through, is an abortion through induced labor. But it was done for her health and we had it our way, the baby would’ve been able to make it to viability and survive. Such was not the case. God had other plans.
BTW, my daughter had two boys later on, who are doing well.
Jim
Correct, but often the fetus is dying inside the mother and will not make it to viability. In the case of my daughter’s baby, the child had essentially no lungs or heart. God gave us the technology and the doctor to perform a procedure, which in other times, she might have lost her life.
Remember, the medical definition of the term, "abortion,’ is the interruption of a pregnancy, for any reason.
A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
The procedure my daughter went through, is an abortion through induced labor. But it was done for her health and we had it our way, the baby would’ve been able to make it to viability and survive. Such was not the case. God had other plans.
BTW, my daughter had two boys later on, who are doing well.
Jim
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bankerdavid
Guest
To be clear, let’s talk about the subject. Abortion to save the life of the mother, is permissible. Forcing an already dead baby out of the womb is permissible. These are not what we’re talking about, and God knows our hearts. What we’re talking about is getting rid of a human life because it is inconvenient, doesn’t fit into “our plan”, interferring in the will of God. Because God is the giver of life, as we say in the Nicene Creed every Sunday, it is not our place to take the life he gives.
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happymommy
Guest
I am a mother who lost a baby that she dreamed of, thank you very much!! I understand what the term abortion is from a medical standpoint! I needed to have a D & C after my miscarriage and as if the pain from that wasn’t enough, I get the bill from the hospital and it states that I had an abortion. Like that isn’t a slap in the face. I understand that fetus is a term, but don’t you think of your grandchild when you talk about your daughter and her horrible experience, not just a fetus. It just seems cold to me. I’m sorry if my emotions seem out of check, they are not. I feel that comment was not kind, would you have made that same comment to a man who disagreed with you?
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bankerdavid
Guest
On the plus side, as I said, God always has a plan. I have found a Catholic community where my wife and I feel comfortable. It will take some getting used to, as this parish is a bit far, but I know I’ve found a home.
Praise be to God for that!
Praise be to God for that!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
In various pieces of legislation that is brought into congress, there is no differentiation between abortion for medical purposes and others. Its why various politicians have voted against anti-abortion legislation.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
happymommy,
The point I’m making here. The term “abortion,” is emotionally charged that is used across the board and does not accurately define what is going on in the medical sense.
Its why doctors as a group, oppose much of the anti-abortion legislation that has been put through congressional votes.
Its become my belief, that the Republicans often write the bills with the broad use of the term, just so their opponents will vote against them. Then they can say, “see, I’m pro-life, he’s pro-abortion.”
Jim
I’m sorry for your loss. However, imagine if people called you a murderer? In fact, there was a woman who went through the same thing as you did. Some how, it got out to a woman in her parish, that she had an abortion. Then this woman got together with a couple of other people of the parish, and tried to have her removed from serving as an EMHC. Real Christian of them, huh?
Oh, my grandson is more than just a fetus to me, but thats the stage of development he was in. We got to hold him, and then we had a funeral. The funeral home donated the little coffin and performed the burial for free.
The point I’m making here. The term “abortion,” is emotionally charged that is used across the board and does not accurately define what is going on in the medical sense.
Its why doctors as a group, oppose much of the anti-abortion legislation that has been put through congressional votes.
Its become my belief, that the Republicans often write the bills with the broad use of the term, just so their opponents will vote against them. Then they can say, “see, I’m pro-life, he’s pro-abortion.”
Jim
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bankerdavid
Guest
I don’t really believe that, do you? With the support of all the non-medical reason abortion rights, ie Planned Parenthood as one example, many, if not most, and the liberalization of these laws to include partial birth abortion, I just don’t see it.
I used to be anti-abortion myself, but “understood that a woman has a right to chose”, as so many politicians say.
But once we understand that we’re defeating God’s will by allowing unfettered abortion, it sheds light on this myth.
Bishop Soto said this in a speech to the National Association of Diocesan Gay and Lesbian Ministries, but it applies to this as well: “So much of what we see and hear every day can lead us to a distorted sense of our sexuality. Sexuality has been reduced to a matter of personal preference and personal pleasure without responsibility and with little respect for others. We can lose sight of the profound dignity of the human person who shares in God’s love and creative work through the chaste expression of one’s sexuality proper to one’s calling in life.”
It’s not a choice, it’s a life. When you have sex, you have the possibility that you will create life. This brings responsibility. Because there are alternatives, real good ones, there is no need, ever, to end a life because it doesn’t fit into your plans. Medical necessity is understandable, as long as it’ s really a necessity-mother’s life in danger, or baby has no hope whatsoever of viability. In all things we must trust God completely, and know that He won’t give us challenges that we will not be able to handle with His help.
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Island_Oak
Guest
Always your prerogative in this country to worship where you feel most comfortable.
How exactly do you balance these seemingly contradictory statements?! We must stay alert…by burying our heads in the sand and trusting our government enough to not ASK, much less DEMAND explanations for engaging in armed conflict?!
Fortunately we still live in a democracy, not a theocracy. While the Bishops’ letter was instructive, it was NOT compulsory. We not only have a right, but a DUTY to exercise our votes using our individual judgement and intellect in a well-considered balance of benefits and burdens of voting for a given candidate. It is offensive and irresponsible to the utmost to relinquish this precious right to anyone–whether it be a Bishop, neighbor, spouse or stranger. Our ability to have meaningful (name removed by moderator)ut to the political process through our vote is a rare privilege–paid for with the blood and lives of far too many of our fathers, brothers and sons to ever rationalize not participating or not questioning the authority to whom we entrust such power.
I am proud of my vote for our new president-elect. Was there a perfect candidate? Hardly. But I am encouraged and hopeful in a way I have not been in many years. I have always been and will continue to be highly involved in the political process. I feel my vote entitles me to continue to petition, speak out and maintain pressure on all our elected leaders to consider policy issues, including life issues, which have not been addressed, managed or legislated in the manner I believe is best.
For those who feel defeated or discouraged by the election outcome…I encourage your participation and prayers for our incoming leaders. It is only those who stay involved and speak up who will be heard and make a difference.
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happymommy
Guest
Thank you for your reply. I feel terrible about your loss!
I think if you really look into how the politicians vote. What their reasoning is behind their votes, you can tell who really is pro-life and pro-choice. I know some have different opinions when it comes to rape and the health of the mother.
I think if you vote, the way Obama has, and say that a woman should make the choice to have an abortion, regardless if you would do it yourself, then you are pro-choice therefore pro-abortion. You can’t be pro-choice and against abortion. It’s like saying I would never drink and drive, but the law shouldn’t keep others from doing it. Or, I personally would never shoot and kill anyone, but I don’t think the government should tell other people they can’t. That kind of logic doesn’t make sense.
I think if you really look into how the politicians vote. What their reasoning is behind their votes, you can tell who really is pro-life and pro-choice. I know some have different opinions when it comes to rape and the health of the mother.
I think if you vote, the way Obama has, and say that a woman should make the choice to have an abortion, regardless if you would do it yourself, then you are pro-choice therefore pro-abortion. You can’t be pro-choice and against abortion. It’s like saying I would never drink and drive, but the law shouldn’t keep others from doing it. Or, I personally would never shoot and kill anyone, but I don’t think the government should tell other people they can’t. That kind of logic doesn’t make sense.
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elizabeth22
Guest
My mom-in-law is coming for thanksgiving so I’m in a clean-a-thon. I posted and then went to mop 
and I just came back to this thread. Until my dying day, I will stand by my stance on abortion, it’s wrong, period and it’s up to us to do all we can to protect the innocent unborn. I too had a miscarriage, I lost a little baby and to this day, I wonder if we would have had a little girl or boy. Anyway, the thing is, in those little white books put out by the American Bishops on voting your conscience, it said that there would always be more than one issue to consider when voting, but that the issue of life will always be the single most important issue when deciding who to vote for. John McCain wasn’t perfect, but he was the one who I believe would do less harm. I’m going to try to do some research later tonight and find a statement by Pope Benedict on abortion and the Church. I read something before the election, but I’ll have to search.
and I just came back to this thread. Until my dying day, I will stand by my stance on abortion, it’s wrong, period and it’s up to us to do all we can to protect the innocent unborn. I too had a miscarriage, I lost a little baby and to this day, I wonder if we would have had a little girl or boy. Anyway, the thing is, in those little white books put out by the American Bishops on voting your conscience, it said that there would always be more than one issue to consider when voting, but that the issue of life will always be the single most important issue when deciding who to vote for. John McCain wasn’t perfect, but he was the one who I believe would do less harm. I’m going to try to do some research later tonight and find a statement by Pope Benedict on abortion and the Church. I read something before the election, but I’ll have to search.
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elizabeth22
Guest
US
Pro-abortion rights politicians receive Holy Communion at papal Mass
Washington DC, Apr 18, 2008 / 10:49 pm (CNA).- At Thursday’s papal Mass at Nationals Park in Washington, some United States senators supportive of permissive abortion laws declined to present themselves to receive Holy Communion, while other pro-abortion senators went up to receive, LifeSiteNews reports.
According to photos taken by Tom McFadden, Director of Admissions at Christendom College, Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy remained seated as his row left to receive the Sacrament. However, the photos also show pro-abortion Senators John Kerry and Chris Dodd receiving Holy Communion.
Catholic pro-abortion politicians have been frequently advised and warned not to receive Holy Communion. A 2004 letter from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, sent by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, said such politicians “must” be refused communion. Cardinal Francis Arinze last November recently reiterated the prohibition, citing the same letter.
Pope Benedict himself addressed the topic in his March 2007 apostolic exhortation “Sacramentum Caritatis,” warning Catholics in general and Catholic politicians in particular not to receive Holy Communion unworthily. In the letter, he wrote that politicians must adhere to “non-negotiable” values, such as “respect for human life” and “its defense from conception to natural death.” Such politicians “must feel particularly bound” to “introduce and support laws inspired by values grounded in human nature.”
The Pope referenced 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, which discusses worthy reception of Holy Communion.
The American Life League had taken out full-page advertisements warning American politicians not to receive the Holy Eucharist “sacrilegiously.”
I apologize that I’m only able to copy and paste the above article, but I think you get the gist of what our Pope has said about receiving Holy Communion and supporting abortion, and it goes for all Catholics as well as politicians. I’m not trying to make this about politics, but this article addresses the fact that we must all stand up for the sanctity of life, these are the teachings of our church.
Pro-abortion rights politicians receive Holy Communion at papal Mass
Washington DC, Apr 18, 2008 / 10:49 pm (CNA).- At Thursday’s papal Mass at Nationals Park in Washington, some United States senators supportive of permissive abortion laws declined to present themselves to receive Holy Communion, while other pro-abortion senators went up to receive, LifeSiteNews reports.
According to photos taken by Tom McFadden, Director of Admissions at Christendom College, Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy remained seated as his row left to receive the Sacrament. However, the photos also show pro-abortion Senators John Kerry and Chris Dodd receiving Holy Communion.
Catholic pro-abortion politicians have been frequently advised and warned not to receive Holy Communion. A 2004 letter from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, sent by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, said such politicians “must” be refused communion. Cardinal Francis Arinze last November recently reiterated the prohibition, citing the same letter.
Pope Benedict himself addressed the topic in his March 2007 apostolic exhortation “Sacramentum Caritatis,” warning Catholics in general and Catholic politicians in particular not to receive Holy Communion unworthily. In the letter, he wrote that politicians must adhere to “non-negotiable” values, such as “respect for human life” and “its defense from conception to natural death.” Such politicians “must feel particularly bound” to “introduce and support laws inspired by values grounded in human nature.”
The Pope referenced 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, which discusses worthy reception of Holy Communion.
The American Life League had taken out full-page advertisements warning American politicians not to receive the Holy Eucharist “sacrilegiously.”
I apologize that I’m only able to copy and paste the above article, but I think you get the gist of what our Pope has said about receiving Holy Communion and supporting abortion, and it goes for all Catholics as well as politicians. I’m not trying to make this about politics, but this article addresses the fact that we must all stand up for the sanctity of life, these are the teachings of our church.
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pathfinder7
Guest
how do you know that?
it woiuldn’t surprise me, though…
I don’t think any of those so called pro-life judges on the Sup Ct wants R v W overturned either.
It seems they could have done it by now if they did.Maybe God doesn’t even want it overturned… in a way.
I mean, i sometimes ask myself: Why would God want any innocent children coming into this awful, hideous, baby-destroying world? Where $ rules? Where Satan rules?
Abortion should be outlawed largely because those who murder (obvoiusly) have blood on their hands (souls), women, doctors and etc… the babies themselves are probably better off. I mean, the world is enough to make a person lose one’s soul. So…
for those already born, its another thing. One never forgets murdering one’s own children (or in the case of “doctors” other people’s children). Post Abortion syndrome is a very tragic malady…
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