Priest vs. Canon Law

[kyrie80]

Hi everyone – I have a dilemma and maybe some good Catholics in here can give some advice on what they would do in a similar situation.

Two-and-a-half years ago, I was married in my wife’s Lutheran church where she was baptized and confirmed. At the time, I was not a practicing Catholic. Since then, however, I have repented, went to confession, and returned to Mass. I learned by reading parts of Canon law that I am technically excluded from the Eucharist since I was married outside of the church without the Bishop’s permission.

I have spoke with my parish priest and he said he would convalidate if it ‘makes me feel better’ and that I should use my conscience when approaching the altar for Communion (he said he would not tell me to stay away from the altar).

I also mentioned this dilemma to two other priests in two separate confessions. One priest didn’t say anything and said my sins are forgiven and the other said it is a technicality that can be corrected quite easily. However, he said it is NOT necessary to stay away from Communion in the meantime because I am a member of the Church and not trespassing on anything. I mentioned to him what I read in Canon law and he said to be careful when reading Canon law because it doesn’t take into account individual situations.

After saying all this, does anyone have any opinions? Should I ignore the opinions and counsel of three different priests and follow Canon law? Or, is this the proper way to handle situations – learn and understand Catholic teaching and Canon law and then seek advice from parish priests on how to handle the matter?

Thanks for your help!

 

[puzzleannie]

simply ask the priest to have your marriage convalidated, a simple procedure that can be as private, or public, as you want it to be. that is the “simple matter” the priest referred to.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I learned by reading parts of Canon law

This is a dangerous practice. You have eto know EVERYTHING about Canon Law, including how it actually gets applied in real life and tradition of interpretation (“course of performance” as it’s called) before you know what the individual parts mean.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I have spoke with my parish priest and he said he would convalidate if it ‘makes me feel better’ and that I should use my conscience when approaching the altar for Communion (he said he would not tell me to stay away from the altar).

It sounds like your conscience is telling you to refrain from Communion until you get your marriage convalidated.

 

[1ke]

The priests are wrong. You are right.

Get your marriage convalidated as soon as possible.

Yes, you should refrain from the Eucharist until you’ve done so (unless you are refraining from sexual relations until your marriage is convalidated… then, of course, you can approach the Eucharist).

I am so sorry that you have priests who are so poorly trained in your diocese.

 

[kyrie80]

The priests are wrong. You are right.

Get your marriage convalidated as soon as possible.

Yes, you should refrain from the Eucharist until you’ve done so (unless you are refraining from sexual relations until your marriage is convalidated… then, of course, you can approach the Eucharist).

I am so sorry that you have priests who are so poorly trained in your diocese.

These are actually three priests from two different diocese. I thought it was weird how Canon law is so clear on this and yet I got very vague answers.

 

[kyrie80]

It sounds like your conscience is telling you to refrain from Communion until you get your marriage convalidated.

I guess it sort of is considering I brought it up at confession two different times and called my parish pastor regarding the issue.

 

[YADA]

After reading the cannon law, why did you not seek to have your marriage valiated?

After having a priest tell you he would do so, why did you not already have it done?

Why bring it up in confession several times without following through?

It seems to me: that in making your way back to the church, confessing that you were estranged from the church and married outside the church is the first step … as in this would be necessary before you could seek having your marriage validated … now that you have made that first step … it is time to make step two … and have the marriage validated …

Your posts are probably not as complete as they could be and we are not privy to all the circumstances around you …

Whe my husband and I made our way back into the good graces of the church … and it was complex … I won’t go into all the details … but when we had regularized ourselves to the point where we could have our marriage validated …

We went to confession on Saturday afternoon, attended Mass that evening, received communion together for the first time and had our marriage validated after Mass … it was not necessary to avoid the Sacrament of Eucharist between the confession and the validation …

Now for us that all occurred within a space of hours … and of course working with our priest over the months prevoius [annulment issues] …we attended Mass for a couple of years without receiving Communion and would have continued not receiving if that would have been the outcome … we had come to realize that we could not live our life in Christ fully and be estranged from the church.

 

[kyrie80]

After reading the cannon law, why did you not seek to have your marriage valiated?

After having a priest tell you he would do so, why did you not already have it done?

Why bring it up in confession several times without following through?

Very easy thing to say, another thing to actually do. I intend to get a convalidation, but I couldn’t just spring it on my wife and say, “Oh well, our marriage is invalid and we need the Church to make it so.” Now, I have talked about it with my wife and allowed her to ponder about it and she is willing to do it. But, at that particular time I couldn’t have just come home – after being a non-practicing Catholic and never going to Mass for such a long time – and all of a sudden say, “Hey, we need our marriage convalidated so I can be in full communion with my Church.” If I would have handled it that way, I would have had resistence. True, Catholics believe that we are the true Church founded by Christ, but others don’t believe that. We are supposed to evangelize and get them to see the truth, but you aren’t going to get others on your side if you force it on them…patience is needed.

Having said that, my wife and I have both agreed to have future children baptized and raised Catholic. My wife is also reading about and leaning towards Catholicism.

 

[YADA]

I see your point … as I said … there is always much lacking on a forum such as this … hard to reduce complex issues into a few sentences … the same with time lines and conversations …

I guess I assumed your wife was cognizant of your renewal of faith, the “issues” you were discovering and the implications for your marriage …

As in my case, my husband and I discussed meeting with a priest before our marriage … lack of courage [faith?] and fear of the consequences caused us to marry outside the church … thinking [wrongly ] that we could build our life independent of God, Faith and Church … on our own … But we came to realize that we could not run nor hide … we needed God in our marriage or we would not survive … so we sucked it up … it was much harder than if we had followed the church … [don’t most disobedient children feel the same ?] …

But we probably started ut with more knowledge [even if we failed to act on it!] then you and your wife did …

I am glad your wife is studying the faith and congratulations on your validation … I hope it happens sooner [rather then later] for both of you … and wonderful that he wants the chhildren raised in the faith … that will work as an incentive to unifying the family in faith …

God Bless …

 

[kyrie80]

I see your point … as I said … there is always much lacking on a forum such as this … hard to reduce complex issues into a few sentences … the same with time lines and conversations …

I guess I assumed your wife was cognizant of your renewal of faith, the “issues” you were discovering and the implications for your marriage …

As in my case, my husband and I discussed meeting with a priest before our marriage … lack of courage [faith?] and fear of the consequences caused us to marry outside the church … thinking [wrongly ] that we could build our life independent of God, Faith and Church … on our own … But we came to realize that we could not run nor hide … we needed God in our marriage or we would not survive … so we sucked it up … it was much harder than if we had followed the church … [don’t most disobedient children feel the same ?] …

But we probably started ut with more knowledge [even if we failed to act on it!] then you and your wife did …

I am glad your wife is studying the faith and congratulations on your validation … I hope it happens sooner [rather then later] for both of you … and wonderful that he wants the chhildren raised in the faith … that will work as an incentive to unifying the family in faith …

God Bless …

Thanks. So, you went to the Eucharist between confession and convalidation? I guess there is a difference between intent and the actual piece of paper. If I either didn’t go to confession and/or had no intentions to convalidate, then there is a reason to avoid the Eucharist. However, if I confessed and it is just a matter of logistics (allowing my wife to get used to the idea, going to City Hall for marriage license copy, getting witnesses, scheduling with the parish, etc.), I guess there is no reason to avoid it.

Plus, I was also conflicted for a while because I felt that by participating in the convalidation, I was saying that what happened two years ago was a fraud. It was part of my own struggle, growth and learning with the process, but not in any way an intentional offense against God.

 

[YADA]

As I noted, we had annullment issues to work through …

For about two years we attended mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation and did not receive Communion … once our annullment issue resolved … our priest met with us to discuss our future, our marriage, the validation, going to confession … HE said he did not want to delay [we’d waited “long enough” in his words].

When all the paper work was in his hands, he met us over dinner, told us he was saying mass on saturday…to come to confession before mass and he would perform the marriage immediately following mass … this was in January [my mom had said they would come for the ceremony if we waited until Summer when the roads were better … fr said no way … not a day longer … it was very siple just Fr our witnesses and us … oer in a matter of minutes, pizza afterwards and MUCH MUCH Happiness …

that was eleven years ago in january [we’ve been married 16 years in July - yes we celebrate the original as the validation just confirmed our marriage] … Happy strong marriage that recognozes that three were married - us and the Holy Spirit …

If you can get a copy read Bishop Fulton Sheen’s Three to Get Married a book I highly recommend …

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Thanks. So, you went to the Eucharist between confession and convalidation? I guess there is a difference between intent and the actual piece of paper. If I either didn’t go to confession and/or had no intentions to convalidate, then there is a reason to avoid the Eucharist. However, if I confessed and it is just a matter of logistics (allowing my wife to get used to the idea, going to City Hall for marriage license copy, getting witnesses, scheduling with the parish, etc.), I guess there is no reason to avoid it.

Plus, I was also conflicted for a while because I felt that by participating in the convalidation, I was saying that what happened two years ago was a fraud. It was part of my own struggle, growth and learning with the process, but not in any way an intentional offense against God.

that was eleven years ago in january [we’ve been married 16 years in July - yes we celebrate the original as the validation just confirmed our marriage] … Happy strong marriage that recognozes that three were married - us and the Holy Spirit …

I realize the OP is honestly trying to work out the marriage situation, so before offering what I hope are clarifying comments I wanted to preface them by saying I’m not trying to be a scold…

The posters who said that a little bit of canon law in the wrong hands can be very dangerous were, admittedly, correct, but in this case the priests’ advice was, indeed, bad. If you are having marital relations with someone who is not your spouse, you must refrain from receiving the Eucharist. Convalidation is not making a valid marriage simply “official,” rather it is actually effecting the sacramental marriage for the first time.

So even if you went to confession and were sincerely sorry for your irregular situation, 1) for the confession to be valid you would have to intend not to commit the sin again, which would include intending not to have marital relations with your lega-but-not-sacramental spouse until such time as you are validly married, and 2) that means that even while you’re taking the necessary steps to get married through convalidation you cannot receive the Eucharist while engaging in marital relations.

By saying that the OP (or YADA before the convalidation) was not married is by no means an attempt to call the previous relationship a fraud (such marriages are normally entered into in good but simply ill-informed faith) or somehow illegitimate in terms of the devotion and dedication the couple meant to exchange. Still, the objective fact of the matter is that various groups of people, such as the large population of Catholics who marry “outside the Church,” have not in fact effected a valid, sacramental marriage. My respect to the OP for seeking to rectify the situation and for having the strength of character to question the priests’ bad advice about the situation, even though that meant inviting “tougher” answers to live with.

 

[Ilroy]

Thanks. **So, you went to the Eucharist between confession and convalidation? **I guess there is a difference between intent and the actual piece of paper. If I either didn’t go to confession and/or had no intentions to convalidate, then there is a reason to avoid the Eucharist. However, if I confessed and it is just a matter of logistics (allowing my wife to get used to the idea, going to City Hall for marriage license copy, getting witnesses, scheduling with the parish, etc.), I guess there is no reason to avoid it.

The reason YADA was able to go to Communion after this particular confession is because she was not going to engage in sexual relations with her soon to be husband before such time as their marriage was made valid.

If you and your “wife” are still engaging in relations then you cannot morally recieve communion as you are in a state of mortal sin. (relations with someone not your valid spouse)

Anyone else out there who is living in a non-valid marriage, just not recieving communion is not enough. If you are engaging in relations, you are committing what is objectively grave sin. If you do so knowing that it is grave matter with full consent then you are subjectively committing mortal sin.

 

[YADA]

The reason YADA was able to go to Communion after this particular confession is because she was not going to engage in sexual relations with her soon to be husband before such time as their marriage was made valid.

If you and your “wife” are still engaging in relations then you cannot morally recieve communion as you are in a state of mortal sin. (relations with someone not your valid spouse)

Anyone else out there who is living in a non-valid marriage, just not recieving communion is not enough. If you are engaging in relations, you are committing what is objectively grave sin. If you do so knowing that it is grave matter with full consent then you are subjectively committing mortal sin.

This is exactly the case … and we had been working deligently with our priest for months … when he blessed our marraige his comment was that we were an example of ‘patience…he wished many other couples would emulate’ …But we were blessed with this loving priest, who provided guidance within the authentic teachings of the church. Hard, yes. We thank God we were guided by a priest who spoke the truth and not what we might want to hear. I am saddened when I meet people whose situations are not improved because a priest conducted a ‘second’ marriage without the decision of Tribunal even being ask for. They are not helping the couples and some such couples I know of have had their marriages fall apart - again.

We erred and we took positive action to correct our improper actions … not just for one day but for far longer … it is possible to be reconciled with the church … it may not be easy but it sure is worth it …

I will also note that it is easy at times for others to look at the ‘visible’ life and make judgements … harder still to see the life as it is lived out of the public view … especially when you are looking at who is and who is not receiving communion and guessing whyor why not…

My husband nor I ever profaned the Eucharist … and the wait was well worth it …

 

[JimR-OCDS]

kyrie80,

        well first off, follow the advice of your priest over the advice given in this forum.

second, you were married in the Lutheran Church, The Church recognizes this as a valid marriage.

Third, praise God for bringing you home!

God Bless
Jim

 

[Brendan]

second, you were married in the Lutheran Church, The Church recognizes this as a valid marriage.

God Bless
Jim

Yes, the Church does recognize marriages performed in the Lutheran Church, but NOT when one of the parties was baptized Catholic.

In such a case, an Episcopal dispensation would be required.

So if the OP was baptized Catholic, he is bound under the Canonical Form of the Sacrament.

If that Form (Canon 1108) was not followed, or no dispenation was recieved, then the Church does not recognize the marriage as being valid.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Have your marriage convalidated ASAP. Refrain from the Eucharist until it is convalidated. Go to confession prior to the convalidation, and then “Welcome home to the Catholic Church”
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[rpp]

Plus, I was also conflicted for a while because I felt that by participating in the convalidation, I was saying that what happened two years ago was a fraud. It was part of my own struggle, growth and learning with the process, but not in any way an intentional offense against God.

First, welcome back home!

Don’t look at it that way and do not present it to your wife that way. Think of it as a recommitment to your wedding vows. Which, of course, is what it is, only in the sign of a sacrament this time.

If you present it to your wife as a renewal of wedding vows, I am certain she will be a little more receptive to it. In fact, it may be quite romantic.

By the way, when I converted, I was instructed by my priest that I could not receive Holy Communion until my marriage was convalidated by the Church. My (now ex-) wife flatly refused. With the priest’s help I petition for what is known as a Radical Sanation. The convalidates the marriage when only one of the spouses is Catholic and the other refuses. In this case, because there was already a civil marriage, consent was assumed.

 

[kyrie80]

First, welcome back home!

Don’t look at it that way and do not present it to your wife that way. Think of it as a recommitment to your wedding vows. Which, of course, is what it is, only in the sign of a sacrament this time.

If you present it to your wife as a renewal of wedding vows, I am certain she will be a little more receptive to it. In fact, it may be quite romantic.

By the way, when I converted, I was instructed by my priest that I could not receive Holy Communion until my marriage was convalidated by the Church. My (now ex-) wife flatly refused. With the priest’s help I petition for what is known as a Radical Sanation. The convalidates the marriage when only one of the spouses is Catholic and the other refuses. In this case, because there was already a civil marriage, consent was assumed.

She agreed to do the validation – she was just uncomfortable about the teaching and the reason for doing it. I’m assuming most non-Catholics would be uncomfortable with such a teaching. I’m Catholic and I’m even uncomfortable with it…but faith isn’t easy. In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus says pick up your cross and follow me…

But, since she already affirmed, without much, if any, nudging from me, that the children with be raised Catholic and that she is even leaning toward Catholicism, I don’t think it will turn out to be a huge issue. The only issue for us will be finding the right witnesses for a ceremony like this. But that is a minor issue that we should be able to resolve.

I heard of radical sanation, but I hear the process can be quite long and can be costly. My parish priest told me that the convalidation is a very simple and quick ceremony.