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JimR-OCDS
Guest
No its not. I’m not the one making judgemental statements toward the person in the the discussion, i.e. the priest who left the Catholic Church.
Jim
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Jim
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beckycmarie
Guest
There is an interesting thread on the topic of celibacy over in the “Ask an Apologist” forum. Something to think about for those advocating married priests, women priests, etc.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=197762
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=197762
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The links are opinions, which many differ on.
Married men in the Eastern Rite, can become priest.
I don’t think mandated celibacy is essential for the priesthood, and if anything, in today’s world, its an obstacle and could prevent people from receiving the sacraments.
Also, I think had we had married priest, the sex abuse scandal would never have reached the level it did, not because being celibacy has anything to do with sexual abuse, but rather, because the church wouldn’t have had to scrape the bottom of the barrel, in ordaining men who had no business in the priesthood.
Also, I beleve that married men with children of their own, would tend to be more protective of children.
That all being said, I also understand the Church’s desire for celibacy, and a married priesthood, would open up a new set of problems.
I just think these problems are less, than what we’re going to have when we can’t receive the sacraments because of the lack of priest.
Jim
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Joyousguard
Guest
They are the same old arguments being hashed and rehashed over the last 50 years or so. They keep skating around the issue and do more of a diservice to the Church then help it.
Let me mention something about the history of married priests. If the priests refused to give up theri famlies the priests were imprisoned or their families were imprisoned. Not a very bright spot in the history of the Catholic Church. The Church seeks a good called “celibacy” by throwing the families of priests into prison? That is part of the foundation for celibacy in the Catholic Church.
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Joyousguard
Guest
Very true.
There are 30,000 married Catholic priests in this country alone. They are eagerlypraying for the day when they will be allowed back into the parishes and are always ready to heed the call.
The vast majority of them still perfom the function sof a Catholic Priest even though they have no parish. They have simply gone about their vocation quietly filling the gaps left by the Church.
So many problems in this world stem from the issues of family and priest swho he himslef has a familiy is better equipped to help.
It wasn’t always a celibate priesthood. Allowing fora married clergy will cause problems but doing the right thing always has probelms involved.
.How sad it is that some people in this country are unable to recieve the Eucharist but once a month or even less. The Church refuses to deal with the real issues and instead denies that their is an elephant in the living room.
Catholics are leaving the church by droves for the protestant denominations because of the priest shortage. South American Bishops are simply ordaining marrie men because they have no priests.
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beckycmarie
Guest
But by accusing someone else of being judgemental, aren’t you being judgemental yourself? Therein lies the irony.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I didn’t make an accusation, its fact. Go back and read where they said the men who left the priesthood, sinned.
Jim
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Joyousguard
Guest
My house is yellow.
just trying to change the subject.
just trying to change the subject.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I agree with your sentiments about priests marrying, but disagree that the RCC was scraping the bottom of the barrell. Back in the day, priests who were pedophiles, were ordained under less scrutiny. Unlike now, with the scandal cracked wide open, a person who wants to enter the priesthood is going to undergo a vast battery of psychoanalysis to predetermine a mindset, or personality/mental disorder that would be an impediment to him serving. So, it’s not so much that the RCC scraped the bottom of the barrell–it was more that they accepted any and all men willing to be ordained, as long as they were not married, or didn’t have something violating Church doctrine, preventing them from being ordained. Back in the 40’s, let’s use that time frame–being gay was not out in the open as it is today, either. So, back then, if your son didn’t marry–he was not ‘free’ to say…I’m gay. I’m sure there are some cases of this, but very few. Again–no one questioned the motivation of someone wanting to become a priest–like maybe he’s gay, but can’t ‘come out,’ and so he chose the priesthood to escape scrutiny, from say family members. I think those questions are asked more nowadays, than ever–for a variety of reasons, namely the scandals. I think this is largely why Pope Benedict is enforcing the mandate that men cannot be homosexual–not just in deed, but in thinking.
So, it’s a little more convaluted than the RCC just scraping the bottom of the barrell–at least in my eyes.
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Genesis315
Guest
Per the OP, breaking one’s vows is an objectively grave sin. I don’t see why we see treat this any differently than a man leaving one wife to go marry another. We can make the same excuses for such a man that some are making concerning a priest abandoning his vows. Both are incredibly sad and difficult situations and we have a merciful God, but objectively, they are a grave matter.
From the Baltimore Catechism:
Q. 1237. Is it a sin not to fulfill our vows?
A. Not to fulfill our vows is a sin, mortal or venial, according to the nature of the vow and the intention we had in making it.
From the CCC:
**2135 **“You shall worship the Lord your God” (*Mt *4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.
From the Baltimore Catechism:
Q. 1237. Is it a sin not to fulfill our vows?
A. Not to fulfill our vows is a sin, mortal or venial, according to the nature of the vow and the intention we had in making it.
From the CCC:
**2135 **“You shall worship the Lord your God” (*Mt *4:10). Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I wondered this as well, because I thought that the vows are similiar to marriage vows–committing one’s self to the Church, as opposed to a person–in the situation of a priest taking vows.
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Joyousguard
Guest
I think you misunderstand. Not all priests take a vow of celibacy and married catholic priests are not guilty of forgoing their ordination or laying aside their duties and obligations of being a priest. They fullfill their ordination as well as their marriage vows. Most of them have no trouble doing both and most of the do both quite well in fact.
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whatevergirl
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Hi Joyous;
But, suppose they do take a vow of celibacy? If they leave their vocation as priest–are they breaking vows, similiar to a couple divorcing? I always viewed the priesthood, as more than a vocation of duties, but also a binding commitment that they make to the RCC? Not to say that they couldn’t leave te vocation, but if it is that simple, why do many priests take a while to discern leaving the vocation, if there is nothing wrong with it? Just seeking to understand–I’m confused.
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JimR-OCDS
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Genesis
Big difference.
Also, like marriage, a vow must be taken under free will, and not under pressure from the family, who wanted to have a son become a priest, to give them a sense of fulfilling their duty.
Jim
Because they didn’t break the vow, they were dispensed from it.
Big difference.
Also, like marriage, a vow must be taken under free will, and not under pressure from the family, who wanted to have a son become a priest, to give them a sense of fulfilling their duty.
Jim
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He_Man
Guest
No offense, but our opinions are relevant here. Only facts matter. TC, I’d disregard this entire post.
A priest, or ordained deacon, can request to be laicized, that is, released from their committment to ministry.
That’s it. You can’t just walk away. It is serious business. In the military, if you do this, you go to jail. Not to mention the possible loss of his soul for doing this.
Priests have made vows to God. They are not to be broken because the Priest suddenly feels he doesn’t like the job any more, or is twitter-painted with a female.
What part of “vow to God” doesn’t make sense???
And very few Priests have issues with celibacy. It is mostly loud lay people who don’t know much about being a Priest who constantly bring that up.
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Lovemyfaith
Guest
The way I look at it is they are all adults when they are ordained, so they must take responsibility for their actions.
In my diocese, the men make a promise of celibacy to the Archbishop at Ordination. In fact, just to that Archbishop who could in fact be dead at this point. A former priest in our parish reminded us of that fact every so often, that is until he left to marry.
Personally, I can not judge another person. I guess we are all human and bound to struggle in our lives.
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He_Man
Guest
Wrong, they need to finish their job.
Insert “father of three”, “husband”, or “wife” instead of Priest and see how sympathy you draw. Would you honestly cut your wife the same slack if she bolted due to fatigue and burnout???
They knew what they were doing when they chose the life. We oew them sympathy and support while they are steadfast, not compassion when they bail on God and the people who need them.
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whatevergirl
Guest
Being a priest is a burden?
Being married is not easier than being a priest. I just view them as completely different vocations, not one easier than the other. I agree though that they deserve compassion–anyone who is struggling to identify with his/her vocation, deserves our compassion.
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Joyousguard
Guest
I think I should have rephrassed that a bit better.Hi Joyous;
But, suppose they do take a vow of celibacy? If they leave their vocation as priest–are they breaking vows, similiar to a couple divorcing? I always viewed the priesthood, as more than a vocation of duties, but also a binding commitment that they make to the RCC? Not to say that they couldn’t leave te vocation, but if it is that simple, why do many priests take a while to discern leaving the vocation, if there is nothing wrong with it? Just seeking to understand–I’m confused.
Most priest sdo not take a vow of celebacy. However, those that do take a vow of celebacy to God but find that they are also called to marriage by God. This creates a very intersting dilema. Where they actually called to the priesthood int he first place? Where they actuall called to marriage? God calls men to the priesthood who then promise a vow of celibacy (which is really to the church and not God). However, many of them are then called by God to marriage. A vow of celibacy to the Church means very little to the man upsatirs when he then decides to call these men to marriage.The fact of the matter is that God calls men to the priesthood and marriage just like he picked the disciples (some married, some not). Most priests are not always 100% certain that they are called to the priesthood and believe me it can be a very nerve racking experience to try and sort through that discernement. The same thing applies with marriage only now a priest is also concerned about his duty to Rome and the Church as well as perhaps public perception.
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Joyousguard
Guest
It is a legal fiction no matter how you try to spin it. Priests are never relived of their commitment to ministry nor can they be.
No married priests walk away from their ministry. Just because they are not in a parish doe snot mean that they do not go about living the sacrament.
This is a very warped understanding. Priests have made a vow of cleibacy to the Church not to God. Celibacy was mandated by the Church, not God. None of them walk away.
Boy are you in for a shock. Talk with priests in the open about celibacy and a married clergy and they will support Rome. Talk with them in private and boy will you be shocked as to what they believe. You are very off if you believe that just laity do not believe in a married clergy.
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