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agapewolf
Guest
I’m not talking about infertility, but it more refers to impotence.
There is absolutely full connection of physical and spiritual. To state that there isn’t is the heresy of mannicheism. Read theology of the body.
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There is absolutely full connection of physical and spiritual. To state that there isn’t is the heresy of mannicheism. Read theology of the body.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\With all due respect, these are patently absurd statements.
Agapewolf is absolutely right – it is vital that priests be men because of the “fatherhood” role that they fill. You are correct that Christ is our spiritual father, but the priest acts in His place – in persona Christi – in his pastoral role and in conferring the sacraments.
And, just as in marriage, infertility is not an impediment – but that doesn’t matter, because
this has nothing to do with his ability to reproduce; it has everything to do with his ability to be a father.
Furthermore, it is at best misguided and at worst heretical to separate the physical from the spiritual. To interpret the Scripture you quoted as making that distinction is incorrect.\
\I’m not talking about infertility, but it more refers to impotence.\
Homosexual men are fathers all the time–on both physical and spiritual levels.
Homosexual men could not be physical fathers were they impotent or infertile.
Either you have met very few homosexual men, or you’re laboring under great misconceptions about them.
Homosexual acts may be sinful, but that does NOT mean that one is free to make false statements about homosexual persons or homosexuality generally.
Agapewolf is absolutely right – it is vital that priests be men because of the “fatherhood” role that they fill. You are correct that Christ is our spiritual father, but the priest acts in His place – in persona Christi – in his pastoral role and in conferring the sacraments.
And, just as in marriage, infertility is not an impediment – but that doesn’t matter, because
this has nothing to do with his ability to reproduce; it has everything to do with his ability to be a father.
Furthermore, it is at best misguided and at worst heretical to separate the physical from the spiritual. To interpret the Scripture you quoted as making that distinction is incorrect.\
\I’m not talking about infertility, but it more refers to impotence.\
Homosexual men are fathers all the time–on both physical and spiritual levels.
Homosexual men could not be physical fathers were they impotent or infertile.
Either you have met very few homosexual men, or you’re laboring under great misconceptions about them.
Homosexual acts may be sinful, but that does NOT mean that one is free to make false statements about homosexual persons or homosexuality generally.
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agapewolf
Guest
I wasn’t talking about homosexual men. I was replying to the pp that was referring to the priesthood as asexual.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
^ except that I corrected & clarified my over-statement, so I think you can give it a rest now. 
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agapewolf
Guest
Elizabeth, I understand your correction, and I’m not harping on it really, I was clarifying my statement to silphx, who was taking it out of context. I needed to explain that.^ except that I corrected & clarified my over-statement, so I think you can give it a rest now.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Thanks. 
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JReducation
Guest
I had not thought about the practical side of this at all, bu I believe that you may be on to something there. I work in the world of aboriton and Respect Life. Most of my work is with men, because it’s practical. The fathers gravitate more toward the brothers than they do toward our female staff. I do believe that there is a gender issue in ministry that can work both ways.Another great post, #97. (The attractions work mutually. Only, it’s not difficult for me to understand “why,” as JR says. Attraction has pragmatic value in the biological world – beyond the sexual act.)
I also believe that part of the problem has more to do with the way that we raise boys today than with same sex attraction. SSA attraction has existed among the cleryg nad in religious life for 2000 years. Contrary to public belief, it was never a criteria for ordination or for profession as a religious. People never thought in terms of separating same sex attaction from same sex activity. It was always assumed that if you were active with the opposite sex you were hetero sexual. We know tha was not the case. I’m alway sreminded of Jane Austin’s Sense and Sensibility when he spies her husband with one of his eployees. This was not uncommon at all. These men were not considered gay because they had wives. Nonetheless, boys were raised to be leaders in the community, lovers, hunters (providers), and warriors (protectors). Whether they had SSA or not, they were all reaised to fulfill the same role in society. We have allowed th sexual attrraction to determine the male role in society. In part it is because it during the 1970s to earl 1990s it was convenient to be newly emerging lberated woman. She later found out that it was not so convenient when she found herslef runnin single parent homes indefinitely, as opposed to women who ran their homes alone were their husband were away, with the assurance that they would return. In the end, this social experiment failed miserably for men and women.
I know this from two personal experiences. I am a formator of a religious community and I do fatherhood education for Respect Life. The feminized man is both a novice in a religious order or a thug ont he street. And most of the time he is neither affeminate nor gay. He is feminzied. He has learned to act and empathize with the adult females who have dominated his life This man is a poor candidate for priesthood, religious life and marriage. He lacks the social development necessary to engage with both genders in a healthy way. He believes that he is only a man in bed. Some believe that even in bed they cannot fulfill that role, they opt out. But they still have sexual attratrions to one gender or another. They may feel that they need to be nurtured by a man, because they don’t have that experienced. This is where they attach themselves to other men in very unhealth relationsips that may lead to sexual activity.
As a formatior of religious, in a Church where the bisohps and the laity do not seem to care whether my brothers are gay or not, because only 1 in 30 is going to be a priest, I have to figure this out on my own. I don’t mind doing that, except it would be nice to have more literature and more workships on this phenomenon for those who are going to live in community. The priests mentioned in John XXIII’s and Benedict XVI’s statement are not consecrated men living in community. Both popes were talking about their own men.
I attended a workshop with Fr. Benedict G. and Archbishop Timothy Dolan of NY.; Fr. Benedict, being a religious, complained to the presenter that none of the workshop helped te formators of religious men. The priest who was leading the workshop, a secular priest, looked at us in the crowd and said, “no one ever thought about it.” At this point, Archbishop Dolan smiled and said, Today, they have become the forgotten members of the Church. Not only do we not have anything to offer them by way of gudiance, but we bishops, diocesan clergy and laity act as if they were poor relations whom we would like to keep as far as possible so as not to help.
His honesty was very touching. But more importantly what I found interesting is that everone wanted to take care of the priests, but ot one remembered that this is not a priestly problem. It’s a human problem. The question is how do we help human beings who with SSA who want to enter eithe ether the priesthood or the consecrated life of religion If truth be told, religious brothers have a community life, whereas secular priests do not have one. They need not live together nor do they need to even shaer anything, not even the peanut butter and jelly in the fridge. A rectory is basically a hosue shared by several bachelors who run inot each other.
Religious pray, play, eat, work, meet, retreat, attend mass, do adoration, wake up, go to sleep, take a showe, shave, clean their house, take vacations, go on retreat and attend meetings and celebrations as oen family. There is a lot of tiem spent together. I never thought that I would have to wait for a shower stall with several other guys. But that’s how we do it. You line up and wait. If we were diocesan, each would have his own bathroom. That’s why it’s nice when diocesans leave a place and the bishop asks religiosu to move in. You always get your own bathroom.
Unless they were too cheap to remodel the house. 
LOL.Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me. I do not understand what you are trying to say.
Peace,
Dante
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I am particularly interested in Paragraph 3 of Post 107. I think it explains a lot – both in and out of the priesthood, by the way. It’s something I’ve thought of for a long time, and something that also is tending to correlate with some of the research about non-normative sexual behavior being deficit-driven.
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JReducation
Guest
Are you referring to this statement that I made.
I know this from two personal experiences. I am a formator of a religious community and I do fatherhood education for Respect Life. The feminized man is both a novice in a religious order or a thug ont he street. And most of the time he is neither affeminate nor gay. He is feminzied. He has learned to act and empathize with the adult females who have dominated his life This man is a poor candidate for priesthood, religious life and marriage. He lacks the social development necessary to engage with both genders in a healthy way. He believes that he is only a man in bed. Some believe that even in bed they cannot fulfill that role, they opt out. But they still have sexual attratrions to one gender or another. They may feel that they need to be nurtured by a man, because they don’t have that experienced. This is where they attach themselves to other men in very unhealth relationsips that may lead to sexual activity.
I meant no harm or offense to anyone. I was sharing from my experience as a formator and as a pychologist prior to being a religious. Though I have not done formal psycology for a long time. I’ve used most of my knowledge of psychology to teach mystical theology.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes, that’s the 3rd paragraph.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\Pederasty is the dark side of homosexuality & our recent sexual abuse scandal is one of Pederasty. \
**Homosexuality and pederasty, aka pedophilia, are NOT the same things.
There were many young females who were abused and violated as well; these are the forgotten victims.
Would anyone call the priests involved in the abuse of girls “heterosexual”?
No. Regardless of the gender of the young victim, the act and paraphilia is called “pedophilia,” and the perpetrator is a “pedophile.”
I might also add that professional who work with pedophiles and their victims and families do NOT use the terms “heterosexual pedophila/-iles” or “homosexual pedophilia/-iles.”**
**Homosexuality and pederasty, aka pedophilia, are NOT the same things.
There were many young females who were abused and violated as well; these are the forgotten victims.
Would anyone call the priests involved in the abuse of girls “heterosexual”?
No. Regardless of the gender of the young victim, the act and paraphilia is called “pedophilia,” and the perpetrator is a “pedophile.”
I might also add that professional who work with pedophiles and their victims and families do NOT use the terms “heterosexual pedophila/-iles” or “homosexual pedophilia/-iles.”**
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CradleCath
Guest
\Pederasty is the dark side of homosexuality & our recent sexual abuse scandal is one of Pederasty. \
**Homosexuality and pederasty, aka pedophilia, are NOT the same things.
There were many young females who were abused and violated as well; these are the forgotten victims.
Would anyone call the priests involved in the abuse of girls “heterosexual”?
No. Regardless of the gender of the young victim, the act and paraphilia is called “pedophilia,” and the perpetrator is a “pedophile.”
I might also add that professional who work with pedophiles and their victims and families do NOT use the terms “heterosexual pedophila/-iles” or "homosexual pedophilia/-ile
You’re wrong, but I’ve noticed that that seldom stops you.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty**
Anthropologists propose three subdivisions of homosexuality as age-structured, egalitarian and gender-structured.[3][4] Pederasty is the archetypal example of male age-structured homosexuality.[3]** Geoffrey Gorer and others distinguish pederasty from pedophilia, which he defined as a separate fourth type that he described as “grossly pathological **in all societies of which we have record.” According to Gorer, the main characteristic of homosexual pederasty is the age difference (either of generation or age-group) between the partners. In his study of native cultures, pederasty appears typically as a passing stage in which the adolescent is the beloved of an older male, who may act as a mentor.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\**
I might also add that professional who work with pedophiles and their victims and families do NOT use the terms “heterosexual pedophila/-iles” or "homosexual pedophilia/-ile**
You’re wrong, but I’ve noticed that that seldom stops you. \
**Wikipedia is known for being the final authority on all matters.
While pedophilia is NOT a subject I read up on for the sheer joy of it. I was told by several mental health professionals with PhDs, at least one of whom worked with convicted pedophiles in prisons, that they do not use the terms I referred to above.
I can only assume they know what they are talking about and what terminology they use.
Doubtless, you know better than these professionals.
**
I might also add that professional who work with pedophiles and their victims and families do NOT use the terms “heterosexual pedophila/-iles” or "homosexual pedophilia/-ile**
You’re wrong, but I’ve noticed that that seldom stops you. \
**Wikipedia is known for being the final authority on all matters.
While pedophilia is NOT a subject I read up on for the sheer joy of it. I was told by several mental health professionals with PhDs, at least one of whom worked with convicted pedophiles in prisons, that they do not use the terms I referred to above.
I can only assume they know what they are talking about and what terminology they use.
Doubtless, you know better than these professionals.
**
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