Priestly State of Life More Blessed?

[TiggerS]

All the baptized are called to Chastity, not all however are called to the radical form of Chastity through celibate Chastity or vowed or promised celibate Chastity.

http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
**PROMISE. **A declaration telling God or another person that one will or will not do something. A promise made to God is equivalently a vow, and it binds in conscience according to the gravity of the promise and the intention to obligate oneself under pain of sin. Promises made to people must be kept, and they oblige in justice or charity, with more or less seriousness depending on one’s ability to fulfill a promise and the harm caused to another by not keeping one’s word.
　
Nothing transcends or is more important on any scale whatsoever than the Will of God. If religious life, the priestly vocation and The Will of God for my life is placed before me, it is the Will of God that is theologically superior to religious life and the priestly vocation in an objective AND subjective sense. Vocation in its fullest sense is objective AND subjective. The Will of God is also superior in a purely objective theological sense.

Vocations are gifted to The Church for the good of The Church and for the santification of a person. God provides the desire, God provides the qualities necessary and God provides the Graces necessary to fulfill the vocation. It is not a question of God loving one person more than the next indicated by the vocation to which He calls them. Vocation, which is the Will of God, is mystery as is His Will in all things. God loves every single person equally and in our misery, sinfulness and failures. God loves the worst of sinners as much as He loves the best of saints. It is the sinner and saint who love God less or more. Quantity and Quality are never less or more in God, quality and quantity are human worldly measurements alone that cannot even remotely approach the Glory of God.

It could be said that the more humble and lowly the vocation and call, the more like Christ that vocation and call is :

(Phillippians Ch2) “[[3]](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=57&ch=2&l=3 / x) Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves: Each one not considering the things that are his own, but those that are other men’s. For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. [[8]](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=57&ch=2&l=8 / x) He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Luke Ch 11 "a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. [28] But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it." (and, of course, Mary heard and obeyed God’s Will always and Jesus is proclaiming that this is the most blessed of all - to hear God’s Word and to keep it)

 

[TiggerS]

Originally Posted by elizabeth_anne forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I think a difficulty that people have in accepting this is that not everyone who desires to “give everything” in consecrated life is in fact called to do so. For me it can seem like this whole “more blessed state of life” thing rubs salt in my wounds. Not only is there a way to follow Jesus more closely, which is highly emphasized in the Church, but Jesus has not called me to it as much as I desire it. Sometimes I see religious and I wonder, “Why them?” and “not me?” That being admitted to I do pray for them and thank God for their vocation, as discouraged as I am about my lack of a vocation. Any advice for dealing with feelings of rejection/jealousy?
Ellie Anne

It can be very difficult to find that one’s own desires conflict with what God is asking and most often it involves a journey from one’s own desires to what God is asking. Often the language and concepts associated with religious life can be ‘rubbing salt into the wounds’ of those who have ardently desired a religious vocation, but it has never happened - or to those called by God to follow a different vocation. Such language and concepts can adopt a certain superiority which often is ego based without a concern for brothers and sisters not thus called.

You most surely can give absolutely everything to Jesus through that vocation to which God is calling you because in embracing His Wil and especially if despite your own, you are giving Him everything. And obedience to God’s Will is an ever unfolding matter in our minutes, days - our journey. God’s Will is something we commit at every moment and renew our commitment every day.

It could be said that religious life is an exterior manifestation to that interior reality to which all the baptized are called. We are all called to poverty, chastity and obedience but not to that radical form embraced by vow in religious life, which thus becomes a quite public witness. It is quite possible to be very radical about the evangelical counsels without entering religious life, while religious life ideally in part is a very public witness, not to itself alone - but to all the baptized.

TS

 

[JReducation]

All the baptized are called to Chastity, not all however are called to the radical form of Chastity through celibate Chastity or vowed or promised celibate Chastity.

http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
**PROMISE. **A declaration telling God or another person that one will or will not do something. A promise made to God is equivalently a vow, and it binds in conscience according to the gravity of the promise and the intention to obligate oneself under pain of sin. Promises made to people must be kept, and they oblige in justice or charity, with more or less seriousness depending on one’s ability to fulfill a promise and the harm caused to another by not keeping one’s word.

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Vocations are gifted to The Church for the good of The Church and for the santification of a person. God provides the desire, God provides the qualities necessary and God provides the Graces necessary to fulfill the vocation. It is not a question of God loving one person more than the next indicated by the vocation to which He calls them. Vocation, which is the Will of God, is mystery as is His Will in all things. God loves every single person equally and in our misery, sinfulness and failures. God loves the worst of sinners as much as He loves the best of saints. It is the sinner and saint who love God less or more. Quantity and Quality are never less or more in God, quality and quantity are human worldly measurements alone that cannot even remotely approach the Glory of God.

It could be said that the more humble and lowly the vocation and call, the more like Christ that vocation and call is :

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This is fine, except for the definition of promise. This definition of promise is not the same used by the Church. The Church distinguishes between oath, promise and vow. Each has a different effect on the soul. Vows are a means of grace, whereas promises are not. When a couple makes vows at their wedding or a religious makes vows at his or her profession, sanctifying grace is dispensed at that moment through the vows. The vows are an extension of the baptismal vows. The promise of celibacy is a commitment to comply with a Church discipline. It is not part of any sacrament. The Church does impose a canonical penalty on those who violate the promise of celibacy and creates a canonical impediment to marriage. But the Church can also unbind from that penalty and impediment. Whereas, the Church cannot regulate the grace mediated by the vow.

It can be very difficult to find that one’s own desires conflict with what God is asking and most often it involves a journey from one’s own desires to what God is asking. Often the language and concepts associated with religious life can be ‘rubbing salt into the wounds’ of those who have ardently desired a religious vocation, but it has never happened - or to those called by God to follow a different vocation. Such language and concepts can adopt a certain superiority which often is ego based without a concern for brothers and sisters not thus called.

SNIPPED FOR SPACE

It could be said that religious life is an exterior manifestation to that interior reality to which all the baptized are called. We are all called to poverty, chastity and obedience but not to that radical form embraced by vow in religious life, which thus becomes a quite public witness. It is quite possible to be very radical about the evangelical counsels without entering religious life, while religious life ideally in part is a very public witness, not to itself alone - but to all the baptized.

TS

Religious life, whether it’s lived in seclusion or in the public arena is more than a public witness. It is an eschatalogical sign of life in the Kingdom. It tells us who and what the Church is and what she’s about.

Pope John Paul II , Vita Consecrata, no. 32: “As a way of showing forth the Church’s holiness, it is to be recognized that the consecrated life, which mirrors Christ’s own way of life, has an objective superiority. Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church’s purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,[62] will be achieved and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God (cf. Mt. 22:30)”

As to the place of consecrated celibacy, that is a doctrine of the Church that we cannot change.

Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, no. 32: “This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church."

This is one of the dogmas that Trent defined and that the Church upholds as an infallible decree, not just an opinion of the Council.

We have to understand that the dogma speaks about the state of of consecrated celibacy, not about the person. It is also important to understand that the dogma does not apply to diocesan clergy. While they consecrate themselves to the service of God and Church by a promise of celibacy, they are not consecrated men. Consecrated celibacy is what we usually call the vow of chastity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

Quoting JReducation: “The Church distinguishes between oath, promise and vow.”

Catholic Catechism:

2101 “In many circumstances, the Christian is called to make promises to God. Baptism and Confirmation, Matrimony and Holy Orders always entail promises. Out of personal devotion, the Christian may also promise to God this action, that prayer, this alms-giving, that pilgrimage, and so forth. Fidelity to promises made to God is a sign of the respect owed to the divine majesty and of love for a faithful God. [1237, 1064]”​

2102 ““A vow is a deliberate and free promise made to God concerning a possible and better good which must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion,” [CIC, can. 1191 § 1] A vow is an act of devotion in which the Christian dedicates himself to God or promises him some good work. By fulfilling his vows he renders to God what has been promised and consecrated to Him. The Acts of the Apostles shows us St. Paul concerned to fulfill the vows he had made. [Cf. Acts 18:18; 21:23-24]”​

Quoting JReducation: “It tells us who and what the Church is and what she’s about”

Precisely. As I wrote and ideally - " while religious life ideally in part is a very public witness, not to itself alone - but to all the baptized" meaning The Church.

Of course, I agree wholly with what you have quoted from Church documents. Celibate Chastity is superior in an objective theological sense (as is the priesthood), as I already stated, because it is a call to live in radical imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity and religious are consecrated publicly by The Church to live in imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity where the vow of Chastity is concerned.

Where ‘people in the pews’ can be confused is when this is put forward and full stop! For an individual nothing can be superior to God’s Will and vocation for their lives. In other words, if a person enters religious life or the priesthood because they are superior, they would be quite correct, they are superior to marriage in an objective theological sense, while at the same time they may be ‘missing the boat’ in a personal and subjective sense as it were in that religious life or the priesthood is not their vocation or call from God. This is what the period of discerning is all about (God’s Will for a person manifested in various ways) however or for what period that discerning takes place.

If a person is not called to religious life or to the priesthood, nor marriage, no one can say what Actual Grace or Sanctifying Grace will or will not be granted to them. any person except certainly all the Graces necessary for salvation and for their personal santification to great holiness and realization of their unique identity in God.

A person not publicly consecrated can make a vow of Celibate Chastity, a private vow. Unwise, however, to do so without sound spiritual direction. Nor is it necessary to make a private vow to live in imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity.

Certainly, public consecration to the evangelical counsels (virginity in the case of the Orderof Virgins) also marriage and ordination by The Church is a guarantee that all Actual Grace and Santifying Grace will indeed be gifted by God to live fully their consecration to great holiness and realization of their unique identity in God in their call and vocation - whether the person is faithful or not to that guarnatee is a matter for their free will.

Speaking on a human level, I should imagine the more superior theologically the call, the more humbling the experinece of such a vocation and call. As a pastoral matter, it is very important, very, that all the baptized understand that because their vocation on a theological scale is inferior to some other vocation, it is not an indication that God loves them less, that they are unable to give themselves fully to Christ. It is very sad to me that sometimes the language we use while elevating the one on a human scale of understanding infers (even if not stated) a lower scall subjectively of the other because the language used stops before the full matter is fully explained. God loves every single person equally and calls every single person to great holiness and sanctity and salvation with all the Graces necessary. It is up to our free will whether we respond or not and often, sadly, this is not understood.

TS

 

[JReducation]

Catholic Catechism:

The wording in the CCC is a little confusing to most people, because it does not follow the wording in Canon Law. I have no idea why. The CCC uses the terms vow and promise interchangeably. My guess is that it’s trying to clarify that a vow is a form of a promise. But that’s only my guess. Because in the rite of profession there are two words used promise and vow. In some situations they use promise and in others they use vow. Some religious communities, such as the Franciscans make both promises and vows.

Our rite of profession says, "I vow and promise . . . " Where as at the ordination rite, the bishop asks, "Do you promise . . . " In Secular Orders the rite of profession says, “I solemnly promise . . .” Canonically, they do not bind the same way, nor do you get out of them the same way. I would have to look at the CCC to see if they give a reference. Sometimes they’ll add a reference to another document or a footnote that sends you to some other place for further clarity.

 

[JReducation]

Precisely. As I wrote and ideally - " while religious life ideally in part is a very public witness, not to itself alone - but to all the baptized" meaning The Church.

Of course, I agree wholly with what you have quoted from Church documents. Celibate Chastity is superior in an objective theological sense (as is the priesthood), as I already stated, because it is a call to live in radical imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity and religious are consecrated publicly by The Church to live in imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity where the vow of Chastity is concerned.

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If a person is not called to religious life or to the priesthood, nor marriage, no one can say what Actual Grace or Sanctifying Grace will or will not be granted to them. any person except certainly all the Graces necessary for salvation and for their personal santification to great holiness and realization of their unique identity in God.

A person not publicly consecrated can make a vow of Celibate Chastity, a private vow. Unwise, however, to do so without sound spiritual direction. Nor is it necessary to make a private vow to live in imitation of Christ in His Celibate Chastity.

Certainly, public consecration to the evangelical counsels (virginity in the case of the Orderof Virgins) also marriage and ordination by The Church is a guarantee that all Actual Grace and Santifying Grace will indeed be gifted by God to live fully their consecration to great holiness and realization of their unique identity in God in their call and vocation - whether the person is faithful or not to that guarnatee is a matter for their free will.

SNIPPED FOR SPACE

TS

I think that what has to be understood is that while the consecrated life of the religious, which is what the doctrine of Trent is speaking about, is objectively superior to that of the secular state, married, ordained or single, it is the state in life that is superior, not the person. Otherwise, we fall into all forms of clericalism and other isms.

What you say is very true. I think that the saints are the best examples from whom to learn. They don’t compete with each other, nor do they feel slighted. Benedictines and Franciscans are wonderful examples of what I mean. Both orders have had priests since their foundation. In both orders the rule is that priests hold no special place in the community. If they are Benedictines, they are monks, like any other monk. If they are Franciscans, they are brothers like any other brother who is not a priest. These early monks and early friars did not see themselves displaced because their priesthood was not accentuated or because they had no special place in the order. The knew who they were. They were the sons of St. Benedict or St. Francis and that’s all they wanted to be. The priesthood was the manner through which they served their brothers and sisters. On the other hand, the consecrated religious, monks and friars, did not look upon the priests as a lower class of religious. Nor did they look at secular priests as a rung beneath, because they were not consecrated men. They were what they were, ordained men. That simple. They looked upon their call to the consecrated life as a gift that they did not deserve.

The religious life is the most precious gift that God can give to a man or woman and he gives this gift to very few. It’s important to understand that he gives it for two reasons: a) the salvation of the individual and b) to be living signs of the Kingdom that is to come. In essence, these men and women are the John the Baptists of today. If we listen to John the Baptist, what does he say? “I am not fit to untie his sandals,” and “Behold the Lamb of God.” Like John the Baptist, the religious sees himself as the unworthy beneficiary of a great gift and as the beacon who always points to Christ.

Having said that, not everyone was called to do what John the Baptist did. No one can claim a place of authority higher than Peter. Yet, it is not about Peter whom Christ speaks when he says, “No greater man was born of woman.” He’s speaking about John the Baptist. Even among the disciples, John refers to himself as “the disciple whom the Lord loved,” or “the beloved disciple.” Obviously, Jesus is capable of loving some with more intensity than others. He mourns the deaths of John the Baptist and Lazarus. He loves John more than he does the other disciples. He gives the place of primacy to Peter.

But Jesus explains this in the parable of the master and the servants. He promises them a wage for their work. Then he pays one more than he promised. The others complain. He points out to them that they received what they were promised. Justice has not been violated. So, it is the same with God’s love and the whole theology of vocations. Justice is not violated because he calls some to live in direct relationship with him through the consecrated life, others to share in his priesthood and others to be signs of the love between him and the Church or others to live the single life in the world. We have to look at what Christ has promised. He has promised to take us all to the Father. The how is a matter of his generosity, not a matter of our merit. We do not deserve any of it. To those whom he gives more, it’s a sign of his generosity, not a sign of the individual’s worthiness. Who will argue the worthiness of John the Baptist, Lazarus, John the Beloved Disciple and Peter? Yet, we know that Jesus’ feelings for them were very different and that he held thin in different places in his heart. All of this is really about his great mercy and love, not about who deserves what. Christ does deliver what he promises, which is the means to reach the Father.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Geremia]

Hmmm…I guess, not being Thomas Aquinas, that I do see how it would even be possible for God to not love us all with the same love. (Being infinite and all…) It isn’t as if He says, “You I will love infinitely” to one person and “You I will love less” to another. I think it is silly to try to quantify the love of God…

You are correct; we cannot quantify His love in itself.[bibledrb]Wisdom 6:8[/bibledrb]What we can quantify is the effects of His love in creatures, e.g., the degrees of goodness he gives them. This is what he means.

In response to the objection (, Ia q. 20 a. 3Summa Theologiæ arg. 2):

the love of God is His essence. But God’s essence does not admit of degree; neither therefore does His love. He does not therefore love some things more than others.

St. Thomas writes (ibid., ad 2):

This argument is based on the intensity of love on the part of the act of the will, which is the divine essence. But the good that God wills for His creatures, is not the divine essence. Therefore there is no reason why it may not vary in degree.

 

[rachael_maria]

I’m completely overjoyed that I am not a Dominican. St. Thomas makes my head hurt, and frankly his take on how God loves people more or less makes me feel pretty lousy. Maybe it is enough to know that Jesus loves me, albeit not as much as He loves religious since He wills a greater good for them.

All of this makes me wonder why God would bother creating people like me in the first place.

 

[JReducation]

I’m completely overjoyed that I am not a Dominican. St. Thomas makes my head hurt, and frankly his take on how God loves people more or less makes me feel pretty lousy. Maybe it is enough to know that Jesus loves me, albeit not as much as He loves religious since He wills a greater good for them.

All of this makes me wonder why God would bother creating people like me in the first place.

I don’t think that’s what Tomas is trying to say. I believe that he’s trying to say what Jesus said in the parable. The employer promises everyone a salary. Come payday, everyone gets the promised salary and some people get a bonus. Those who do not get the bonus have no reason to complain, because they received what they were promised. This is what Jesus said.

Thomas takes this to the next level. God loves us all, but God does not love us all the same way. However, he loves us all enough to save us. The best example are the different relationships that Jesus had with different people in the Gospels. He didn’t say that Peter was the greatest thing since sliced bread or even Moses. Yet, he did say it about John the Baptist. Should Moses be offended?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[rachael_maria]

I don’t think that’s what Tomas is trying to say. I believe that he’s trying to say what Jesus said in the parable. The employer promises everyone a salary. Come payday, everyone gets the promised salary and some people get a bonus. Those who do not get the bonus have no reason to complain, because they received what they were promised. This is what Jesus said.

I actually don’t know if we are talking about the same parable…maybe there is more than one, but the one I know is when people who worked longer and presumably harder were upset that people who did not work as long were paid THE SAME…and Jesus said, “Many who are first will be last…” Makes me think that maybe in the end we are not all that different after all.

I am a bit bitter after being dismissed from religious life due to severe anxiety attacks in the monastery. (Not bitter that I was dismissed, but bitter about the whole “religious life is better” business.) Not everyone can live religious life. I wish there would be a little sensitivity to that.

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.

Mat 20:2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place;

Mat 20:4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.

Mat 20:5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same.

Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’

Mat 20:7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’

Mat 20:8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’

Mat 20:9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.

Mat 20:10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.

Mat 20:11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder,

Mat 20:12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’

Mat 20:13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Mat 20:14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you.

Mat 20:15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Mat 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

 

[TiggerS]

I think that what has to be understood is that while the consecrated life of the religious, which is what the doctrine of Trent is speaking about, is objectively superior to that of the secular state, married, ordained or single, it is the state in life that is superior, not the person. Otherwise, we fall into all forms of clericalism and other isms.

I agree that virginity or celibacy are the most superior states in life. Does the Council of Trent state religious life or is it virginity and celibacy? I am unsure. If it states virginity and celibacy it embraces more than just religious life.
If religious life is the “state of perfection” and it is, then obviously religious life is superior by virtue of being the state of perfection and with it comes great responsibility and accountability"To whom much is given, much will be expected". But I am not sure what the Council of Trent said : religious life, or virginity and celibacy - and no time to research it just now.

The religious life is the most precious gift that God can give to a man or woman and he gives this gift to very few. It’s important to understand that he gives it for two reasons: a) the salvation of the individual and b) to be living signs of the Kingdom that is to come. In essence, these men and women are the John the Baptists of today. If we listen to John the Baptist, what does he say? “I am not fit to untie his sandals,” and “Behold the Lamb of God.” Like John the Baptist, the religious sees himself as the unworthy beneficiary of a great gift and as the beacon who always points to Christ.

Certainly religious life is a precious gift of God, but surely The Blessed Eucharist is the most precious gift from God transcending all others. A child is a precious gift of God. God has gifted us with much precious. Religious life is a precious gift.

Can you quote something where religious men and women are states as “the John the Baptists of today”. Without quoting reliable authoritative sources, statements in posts especially asserting ones are merely personal opinion.

Having said that, not everyone was called to do what John the Baptist did. No one can claim a place of authority higher than Peter. Yet, it is not about Peter whom Christ speaks when he says, “No greater man was born of woman.” He’s speaking about John the Baptist. Even among the disciples, John refers to himself as “the disciple whom the Lord loved,” or “the beloved disciple.” Obviously, Jesus is capable of loving some with more intensity than others. He mourns the deaths of John the Baptist and Lazarus. He loves John more than he does the other disciples. He gives the place of primacy to Peter.

At the time that John was called “the beloved disciple”, John The Baptist had been executed and very much at the beginning of Jesus’s public mission. “The disciple whom Jesus loved” was not John The Baptist.

But Jesus explains this in the parable of the master and the servants. He promises them a wage for their work. Then he pays one more than he promised. The others complain. He points out to them that they received what they were promised. Justice has not been violated

I believe that the parable states that some worked longer hours than others, yet all were all paid the same. The complaint mentioned is that those who had worked longer hours felt that they were cheated. Those who had worked longer hours felt that those who worked less hours should receive less. They all receive the same wage.

So, it is the same with God’s love and the whole theology of vocations. Justice is not violated because he calls some to live in direct relationship with him through the consecrated life, others to share in his priesthood and others to be signs of the love between him and the Church or others to live the single life in the world.

God calls every single person into intimate and direct relationship with Himself. But not all in the same way. Theologically speaking, religious life is “the state of perfection” which does not mean that those in it or called to it are perfect. Nor does it mean that it is the only way of perfection or road to perfection. St Therese of Lisieux is canonized and lived the religious life. Her parents are beatified and on the way to canonization and they lived the married life and had four children. In an ideal sense, radical religious poverty, chastity and obedience should lead to a poor, chaste and obedient spirit. The surest way to attain poverty, chastity and obedience of spirit is through their radical expression as in religious life or the state of perfection.

We have to look at what Christ has promised. He has promised to take us all to the Father. The how is a matter of his generosity, not a matter of our merit. We do not deserve any of it. To those whom he gives more, it’s a sign of his generosity, not a sign of the individual’s worthiness.

Agreed. The gift of religious vocation God gifts to whomsoever He may choose and for the good of The Church and the salvation of the soul of the individual. Why is one person called to religious life and another to marriage etc. It is mystery - ideally our focus is not on ourselves but on God and His Will and His Church and the good of His Church.

TS

 

[hazcompat]

Mat 20:13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Mat 20:14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you.

Mat 20:15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Mat 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

all is grace (gift). Praise the generosity of God.

peace
)

 

[TiggerS]

Quoting JReducation

I don’t think that’s what Tomas is trying to say. I believe that he’s trying to say what Jesus said in the parable. The employer promises everyone a salary. Come payday, everyone gets the promised salary and some people get a bonus. Those who do not get the bonus have no reason to complain, because they received what they were promised. This is what Jesus said.

I think you might have the message in the parable a litte upside down as it were. The workers do not get the salary plus a bonus if that is what you meant.
It is not those receiving more than due to what the actual hours they worked that are complaining. It is those that received what was promised moaning because they had worked longer hours and yet got the same wage as those who worked less.

Matthew Ch 20The message in the parable is that God can do watever He Wills

[1] The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. [2] And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. [3] And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle. [4] And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just. [5] And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.
[6] But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? [7] They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard. [8] And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. [9] When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. [10] But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny. [11] And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, [12] Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. [13] But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? [14] Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. [15]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 20)** Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good? **

 

[hazcompat]

My graces are so unique to me no one else could appreciate them. For me they are perfect. Aren’t yours?

peace

 

[TiggerS]

My graces are so unique to me no one else could appreciate them. For me they are perfect. Aren’t yours?

peace

Well said. The Graces God has gifted me are the best I could have received to my human and personal understanding, although I am still striving daily to be faithful to them. We are all unique and one off creations of God hence the Graces God gifts are condusive to realizing one’ unique identity in Him - hence perfect for the unique person involved.

Looking on vocation from another perspective and a purely human one, not theological. If marrriage ceased, we would eventually have no priests nor religious; hence marriage is essential to the existence of The Church. If we had no priests, we would have no Sacraments, hence priests are essential to The Church. If we had no religious?
This is not to scale vocation on a theological level, rather purely on a human and therefore fallible but logically connected conclusions. Logical human perspective has validity. This is not to say that married life is the most important vocation theologically at all, but it does indicate that all states in life and vocations relate to each other, are connected to each other, depend in some way on each other and ideally are grateful to God for each other realizing their interconnectedness in some way.

TS

 

[TiggerS]

As I had been thinking, The Council of Trent, speaks of “virginity, or of celibacy”.

—Canon X. If any one shall say, that the marriage state is to be preferred before a state ofvirginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity,or in celibacy, than to be joined in matrimony; let him be anathema.

As I had thought, The Council of Trent mentions “a state of virginity, or of celibacy” tobe superior to marriage and this is in an objective theological sense. Virginity and celibacy for the sake of The Kingdom are the superior theological states in life, however not all are called to these states. Therefore much more than religious life is embraced by The Council in Canon X, although religious life of course is included.

Obviously if a person (subjective) has not the qualities for virginity or celibacy, then it might be better that they “not burn with passion”(St. Paul - see reference and quote below) and decide to marry. When God calls, He provides all that is needed for that call. Hence there is an indication that possibly virginity or celibacy is not God’s Will for that person. Does this mean God loves them less. Not at all - it is that God wants them elsewhere and there is nothing superior to, nor can transend, The Will of God. There is nothing more perfect in life than to love, embrace and keep The Will of God as did Jesus even though there was nothing at all respectable or esteemed in the final expression of The Will of The Father - i.e. cruel execution and a slow dreadful death by crucifixion. This should tell us something about what we humans consider good, better and best. Best can indeed wear very strange garments!

Discerning God’s Will for our life and in our unfolding journey may take spiritual direction and a wise and holy spiritual director is pure gold and a great gift in life.

God’s Love is Immutable. God Loves every single person exactly the same. It can never change in any way whasoever, including in degree. Our capacity to receive that Awesome Love can vary according to that degree we love God - and to love God and His Will more than His Gifts while remaining absolutely grateful for and knowingly undeserving of them - and His Gifts of His Pure and Unchanging Love for us can initially wear to our sight very strange garments as it were. Just as God’s Will never changes - and His Will, we know, is the salvation and sanctification of all. The means He adopts for our salvation and sanctification may vary and very often are mysterious to human logic, including why one person is called to the state of perfection (religious life) while another to some other vocation. Mystery! The Graces and Gift of a religious vocation is given to few - reason: Mystery. Although it would be a strange world if most of us were vowed to celibate chastity and were religious…is this the reason? Not for absolutely sure. The reason is mystery why religious vocation is given to this person and not to that. But it is God’s Will and that we love, embrace and strive to fulfill obediently.

For example, take the case of Mr and Mrs Martin: Mr Martin had wanted to be a priest and Mrs Martin had wanted to enter religious life. Both were refused acceptance and eventually married. If both had lived bitter in some way or saddened even about their inability to fulfill their quite holy desires, we may have never had a St Therese of Lisieux, saint and Doctor of The Church. We may never have had a married beatified couple, Mr. and Mrs Martin, on the way to sainthood. I believe also that another one of Mr and Mrs Martin’s daughters, also a religious, I think it is Leonie, is being considered for the process of canonization. No matter your call and vocation in life, holiness and sanctity are open to you just as much as any priest or religious etc. etc. And holiness and sanctity is embracing, loving and fulfilling God’s Will for our life and journey as God’s Will unfolds in our days - and no matter what this may be. This may take spiritual direction and ideally on an ongoing basis.

My thoughts entirely, except for the quotation from Canon X, Council of Trent.

TS

drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=7&l=9&f=s#x

[6] But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. [8] But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I.[9]*** But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry***. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.

 

[JReducation]

I am a bit bitter after being dismissed from religious life due to severe anxiety attacks in the monastery. (Not bitter that I was dismissed, but bitter about the whole “religious life is better” business.) Not everyone can live religious life. I wish there would be a little sensitivity to that.

The Church is very sensitive to this. Even the Holy Fathers who have been secular priests, such as Bl. John Paul II, admitted that he did not have what it took to be a religious. He had great admiration for religious. Yet, he was a very holy man. The fact that not everyone is called to this way of life does not mean that not everyone is called to holiness. Everyone is called to holiness, not the same route.

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.

Mat 20:2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

Mat 20:3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place;

Mat 20:4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.

Mat 20:5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same.

Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’

Mat 20:7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’

Mat 20:8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’

Mat 20:9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.

Mat 20:10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.

Mat 20:11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder,

Mat 20:12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’

Mat 20:13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Mat 20:14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you.

Mat 20:15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Mat 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

This is the parable. I’m explaining it from another angle. The person who worked the shortest got paid the same as the person who worked the longest. If you were to break it down by hours worked, who was paid more? This is how they saw it. But how Jesus sees it is that they got what they were promised.

I agree that virginity or celibacy are the most superior states in life. Does the Council of Trent state religious life or is it virginity and celibacy? I am unsure. If it states virginity and celibacy it embraces more than just religious life.
But I am not sure what the Council of Trent said : religious life, or virginity and celibacy - and no time to research it just now.

Pope John Paul II clarified that the Council of Trent was speaking about the religious life.

**Consecrated celibacy has been criticized over and over again in history, and many times the Church has had to call attention to the excellence of the religious state in this regard. One need only recall the declaration of the Council of Trent [2] , which Pius XII cited in the Encyclical Sacra Virginitas because of its magisterial value [3] . **

Traditionally, three vows are usually spoken of–poverty, chastity and obedience–beginning with the discussion of poverty as detachment from external goods, ranked on a lower level with regard to the goods of body and soul (cf. St. Thomas, Summa Theol., II-II, q. 186, a. 3). The Council, instead, expressly mentions consecrated chastity before the other two vows (cf. LG 43; PC 12, 13, 14), because it considers chastity as the determining commitment of the state of consecrated life.

Certainly religious life is a precious gift of God, but surely The Blessed Eucharist is the most precious gift from God transcending all others.

The Eucharist is a gift given to all. The religious vocation is a gift given to some. There is the difference. We’re not talking about God giving himself in the Eucharist. We’re talking about calls or vocations.

Can you quote something where religious men and women are states as “the John the Baptists of today”. Without quoting reliable authoritative sources, statements in posts especially asserting ones are merely personal opinion.

Actually, it is a piece of my doctoral dissertation on the religious life of Francis and Teresa of Avila.

At the time that John was called “the beloved disciple”, John The Baptist had been executed and very much at the beginning of Jesus’s public mission. “The disciple whom Jesus loved” was not John The Baptist.

We knot that. Let’ s not confuse our Johns. LOL

God calls every single person into intimate and direct relationship with Himself. But not all in the same way.

There is the key. The married man leads his wife to Christ and she leads her husband to Christ. The religious is espoused to the Beloved who is Christ. There is no one between him and Christ. He or she lives solely for Christ, unlike the married person or the priest who approaches Christ through another. The married person through the spouse and the ordained through the Church. The religious is in a very distinct relationship with Christ. Again, it must be made clear that this is Christ’s choice, not the merit of the individual.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

I don’t think that’s what Tomas is trying to say. I believe that he’s trying to say what Jesus said in the parable. The employer promises everyone a salary. Come payday, everyone gets the promised salary and some people get a bonus. Those who do not get the bonus have no reason to complain, because they received what they were promised. This is what Jesus said.

Thomas takes this to the next level. God loves us all, but God does not love us all the same way. However, he loves us all enough to save us. The best example are the different relationships that Jesus had with different people in the Gospels. He didn’t say that Peter was the greatest thing since sliced bread or even Moses. Yet, he did say it about John the Baptist. Should Moses be offended?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This answer from Catholic Answers “This Rock” will assist in insighting why Jesus said that John The Baptist was “the greatest born of woman” i.e. John was the greatest of prophets because John was greater than a prophet and “the precursor” to Jesus.

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/St.%20John%20the%20Baptist
**Protestants point to Matthew 11:11, where Jesus claims that John the Baptist is the greatest born of woman. Yet we consider Mary to be the greatest human creature as Theotokos. How do we reconcile these arguments? **

”

Answer (This Rock, link above):
Obviously a literal, uninformed reading of this verse can be problematic. Jesus must have had a specific context in mind when he made that statement. The context comes into focus when we consider the preceding verses, where Jesus asked, “Why then did you go out? To see a prophet?” and then answered, “Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet” (Matt. 11:9).

Clearly Jesus was proclaiming John the Baptist to be the greatest of all the prophets, indeed even something greater than a prophet, i.e. the Precursor.

Jesus was fully human and like us humans, He had different kinds of relationships with various people. Like us, He seemed to be personally closer to some than to others attesting to His humanity. Scripture tells us that John was “the beloved disciple, whom Jesus loved” inferring a potentially closer relationship in some way than possibly with the other disciples. Perhaps Jesus spent more personal time with John than any of the others and this could have any reason. Scripture does not state that Jesus loved the other disciples less than John - nor John more than any of the others.

John The Baptist was dead, beheaded, long before the Last Supper when John, the beloved disciple whom Jesus loved, was with Jesus. John The Baptist is arrested and executed, beheaded, by Herod at the very onset of the public ministry of Jesus shortly afterJohn baptizes Jesus in the Jordon I think.

God loves us all equally and in exactly the same way. His Love cannot change including by degree. It is we who love God less or more and therefore are less or more capable of experiencing His Love for us. Some have a greater capacity to receive God’s Love than others and this is dependant on us and our free will and response to the Love of God.

TS

 

[TiggerS]

Quoting JReducation

**Consecrated celibacy has been criticized over and over again in history, and many times the Church has had to call attention to the excellence of the religious state **in this regard. One need only recall the declaration of the Council of Trent [2] , which Pius XII cited in the Encyclical Sacra Virginitas because of its magisterial value [3] .

Traditionally, three vows are usually spoken of–poverty, chastity and obedience–beginning with the discussion of poverty as detachment from external goods, ranked on a lower level with regard to the goods of body and soul (cf. St. Thomas, Summa Theol., II-II, q. 186, a. 3). The Council, instead, expressly mentions consecrated chastity before the other two vows (cf. LG 43; PC 12, 13, 14), because it considers chastity as the determining commitment of the state of consecrated life.

I do not dispute this at all. The religious life, the consecrated life, is objectively theologically superior; however, this does not mean at all that those who have been consecrated to live the religious life are actually of necessity and thereby doing so. We can all be unfaithful to Grace granted.

I agree with all quoted above.

There is the key. The married man leads his wife to Christ and she leads her husband to Christ. The religious is espoused to the Beloved who is Christ. There is no one between him and Christ. He or she lives solely for Christ, unlike the married person or the priest who approaches Christ through another. The married person through the spouse and the ordained through the Church. The religious is in a very distinct relationship with Christ. Again, it must be made clear that this is Christ’s choice, not the merit of the individual.

Isn’t a religious bound to obey their Rule and their superior as an expression of God’s Will for them and wouldn’t this mean that they are led via their Rule and superior to Christ? Not that this is my point really. The religious is indeed espoused to the Beloved who is Christ as is every baptized person, although the religious is also consecrated and consecrated into the state of perfection and a very special espousal to Christ in that it is the state of perfection.

This does not mean that the consecrated person is in actuality living out the reality of their vows etc. It is their call certainly to do so with all the Graces necessary to do so, but not all are of necessity thereby faithful to all that. We have heaps of saints who were not religious. Certainly religious are called urgently to be perfect since they are living in the state of perfection and consecrated to it with all necessary Graces for perfection, which the rest of us are not - living in the state of perfection which does not mean at all that those outside religious life are not following the way of perfection. And we are all granted the necessary Graces for salvation and sanctification. How we respond and the effect of that response or the lack of it determines much including for those in the religious life and the state of perfection.

Vocation is indeed Christ’s Choice or His Will and it is Christ’s Choice or His Will that we ideally love independant of content since nothing can transcend Christ’s Choice and His Will which applies to every one of us not only to those called into religious life and conserated to it.

TS

 

[TiggerS]

Quoting JPII “Sacra Virginitas”
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25031954_sacra-virginitas_en.html

This document is addressed directly to Public Consecrated Virgins, although it embraces other states of virginity and chastity for the sake of The Kingdom.

1. Holy virginity and that perfect chastity which is consecrated to the service of God is without doubt among the most precious treasures which the Founder of the Church has left in heritage to the society which He established…
2. And while this perfect chastity is the subject of one of the three vows which constitute the religious state,[9] and is also required by the Latin Church of clerics in major orders[10] and demanded from members of Secular Institutes,
   [11]

it also flourishes among many who are lay people in the full sense: men and women who are not constituted in a public state of perfection and yet by private promise or vow completely abstain from marriage and sexual pleasures, in order to serve their neighbor more freely and to be united with God more easily and more closely.

1. To all of these beloved sons and daughters who in any way have consecrated their bodies and souls to God, We address Ourselves, and exhort them earnestly to strengthen their holy resolution and be faithful to it. …

[34] It would hardly satisfy their burning love for Christ to be united with Him by the bonds of affection, but this love had perforce to express itself by the imitation of His virtues, and especially by conformity to His way of life, which was lived completely for the benefit and salvation of the human race. If priests, religious men and women, and others who in any way have vowed themselves to the divine service, cultivate perfect chastity, it is certainly for the reason that their Divine Master remained all His life a virgin

This is not to infer that theologically speaking a person who dedicates their lives say by private vows to poverty, chastity and obedience is theologically equal to consecrated religious state, or alternaively simply vows their lives to God in every way including through celibate Chastity for the sake of The Kingdom.Consecrated religious life is theologically superior by virtue of the fact that it is a public consecrated state by The Church. That consecration by The Church gives it theological superiority over any other manner of consecrating or dedicating oneself.

A person not consecrated to religious life by The Church may conceivably be living the vows in a far more radical. self sacrificing, manner than a person within religious life. Such still does not mean that consecrated religious life is not the theologically superior by virtue of public consecration by The Church.

A married person may well be more faithful and live more faithful to Graces granted than a person in any other state in life and achieve a higher degree of holiness hence closeness to God than any other state in life. This is not a theological assertion on a certain level anyway, rather it involves the personal, the subjective, and a particular life responding to God and His Will, to Graces granted. The heights and depths of the Grace of God are not confined to religious life alone. This is well born out by the parents of St. Therese, now beatified, and as mentioned in a previous post.

TS