Priests and Religious Brothers / Sisters - not allowed privacy?

[Susan_Calvin]

We have several people, ages 18-35 or so, who are discerning their vocation to become a priest, brother, sister or consecrated virgin (we have a kind of club for people discerning). I’m not really a member being such a new Catholic and not sure I’m suited, but I’ve been invited to the meetings several times. We have a priest, a couple of Sisters, and a former monk, who sometimes attend these meetings to give advice. The monk took solemn vows but left the monastery after 25 years. He still remains faithful to his vows but lives on his own and is active in our church.

The thing is, he keeps insisting certain things about the religious life which some people are finding very off-putting. The one thing he says over and over again, is that a priest or religious has no right to privacy. In the sense that, if someone in the congregation wants their attention, they must drop what they are doing and provide it. He claims he does this himself.

I understand what he means, your time is not your own, etc… but for instance, we have a person in our congregation who is mentally ill and hangs around the church several hours a day. She pesters the church staff and anyone else who is around. She is obviously lonely and the church is like a family to her, but our priest has been “setting boundaries” with her about what she is permitted to do, etc. He makes her go home for a couple of hours each day, volunteer outside of the church, etc.

To make a long story short, the former monk is saying that our priest has no right to do this… that basically he should just drop everything and talk to this lady whenever she asks, because that is part of his calling as a priest. Basically enable her in her illness IMHO. I feel the priest is doing the right thing and actually helping her, because she needs to stop being so obsessed with church. But our former monk says she is Jesus in disguise, and if any of us are to become brothers or sisters, we will have to “put up” with people like her, with no conditions. He often cites the story about St. Therese and the Sister who sat on the edge of the bed and “bothered” her.

I understand being kind and tolerant. But at the same time, I think this lady need direction and boundaries, not whatever attention she demands. I guess my question is, being a brother or sister doesn’t mean a person has to be a doormat, right???

Sorry this was so long…

 

[LoyalViews]

No, I think the former Monk is sending the wrong message. Priests, brothers, sisters and nuns, etc… are allowed privacy. They are not doormats, as the former monk makes it out. They are people of God. I think maybe, that the former monk is sending out the wrong message, or he is trying to say one thing but it is coming out as another.

 

[Mel_Stones]

If your priest was to drop everything to talk to this troubled lady every time she wanted him to, it sounds as though he would be unable to meet the requests/needs of many others in his care.

In my personal case, I’m always afraid of taking more of my priest’s time than I have a right to ask. My priest says he will say “yes” when he can and “no” when he must. In other words he will give time when possible but there will be times when he can’t and I’m to leave it to him to worry about how his time is spent (and it’s not personal when he must say “no”).

I might be stereotyping but I figure anyone who is willing to answer the call to serve God through serving His Church is going to be very self-sacrificing with his/her time and talents. So, basically I think most every person in the religious life whether it be monk, priest, sister, or brother can be trusted to discern how to use their time for the best of those in their care while maintaining their personal mental, emotional, and physical health.

 

[jpjd]

The former monk is incorrect, and his error could have the effect of discouraging the discerning folks from making a decision in favor of a religious vocation. I think you need to bring this to the attention of your pastor.

 

[Mark77]

The former monk is incorrect, and his error could have the effect of discouraging the discerning folks from making a decision in favor of a religious vocation. I think you need to bring this to the attention of your pastor.

i agree! Even Jesus went away often, despite the peoples constant desires for healing & miracles;

"And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone," (Mt 14:23)

While this monk probably has the best of intentions, his message will surely cause confusion & doubt for those discerning a calling!

While this mentally challenged lady deserves attention, she cannot monopolize the priest’s time needed for the rest of his flock!

Pray for all those discerning & those serving others as Jesus taught us!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[ChemicalBean]

I think something to keep in mind here is that he is a monk - he was formed in a monastic community, and being obedient (obdire = listen?) and present to the needs of the community is one of the most important parts of the monastic way of life. I don’t know if he is Benedictine, but St. Benedict would have you “receive all guests as Christ” - including the mentally ill, and the cokeheads and heroin shooters. He would also have you “prefer nothing to Christ”. Clearly, your life is to be offered at the service of the other in a radically different way, and probably each encounter with someone is to be considered a call to conversion. Not that all Christians aren’t called to holiness and selfless love, but this monk’s particular charism is hospitality, and that’s where he’s coming from.

That said, that charism isn’t for all priests and religious, and it’s perfectly acceptable for these men and women to set boundaries for themselves. After all, they cannot give what they do not have, and in apostolic parish ministry, they have a lot of responsibilities distinct from monastic life.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

If your priest was to drop everything to talk to this troubled lady every time she wanted him to, it sounds as though he would be unable to meet the requests/needs of many others in his care.

Yes exactly… that’s my issue with it also. I would think most if not all priests and religious are very busy people in general and can’t just concentrate on the needs of one person.
Mel Stones:

basically I think most every person in the religious life whether it be monk, priest, sister, or brother can be trusted to discern how to use their time for the best of those in their care while maintaining their personal mental, emotional, and physical health.

Yes that’s a very good point too, during formation I assume you would learn many of these things.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

The former monk is incorrect, and his error could have the effect of discouraging the discerning folks from making a decision in favor of a religious vocation. I think you need to bring this to the attention of your pastor.

Yes, it is already having that effect on a couple of people. There are other things he says as well, this is just the one I decided to write about. Maybe it is a good idea to speak to our pastor…

Mark77:

i agree! Even Jesus went away often, despite the peoples constant desires for healing & miracles;

“And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone,” (Mt 14:23)

That’s a great point, thanks! Another thing Brother N. often says is “What would Jesus do?” so its good to think of Jesus as sometimes needing space also!

 

[Susan_Calvin]

I think something to keep in mind here is that he is a monk - he was formed in a monastic community, and being obedient (obdire = listen?) and present to the needs of the community is one of the most important parts of the monastic way of life. I don’t know if he is Benedictine, but St. Benedict would have you “receive all guests as Christ” - including the mentally ill, and the cokeheads and heroin shooters. He would also have you “prefer nothing to Christ”. Clearly, your life is to be offered at the service of the other in a radically different way, and probably each encounter with someone is to be considered a call to conversion. Not that all Christians aren’t called to holiness and selfless love, but this monk’s particular charism is hospitality, and that’s where he’s coming from.

Oh interesting… he was in formation with the Trappists, and he talks sometimes about the Rule of St. Benedict. What you say sounds so much like him and makes total sense, thanks!

 

[JReducation]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding here. First of all, I would have to ask if the priest is also a religious or is he a secular priest. Priests who are also religious are bound by the rules and mission of their religious community, not by the ordinary expectations that we have of diocesan priests. For religious, the priesthood is a vocation within another vocation, the consecrated life. The question is, if he is a religious, what is the mission and charism of his community. If the priest is a secular priest, then he has more wiggle room, as I call it. He sets his schedule, his priorities and the boundaries, because he’s not bound to a rule and a religious tradition.

That being said, the issue here is not one of privacy, but of boundaries. The Roman monastic tradition is all Benedictine. We don’t have another monastic tradition. All monks are Benedictines: Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese and Benedictines of course. The Carthusians are not monks. They are hermits and fall into another tradition. In the Benedictine tradition hospitality is a major component of their charism. It is a form of obedience. You obey the voice of Christ that calls you through the pilgrim that comes to your door.

This not the charism of every religious community. The Franciscan family (which consists of six different orders) has just the opposite tradition. The primary mission of the friar is to live in brotherhood. Therefore, Franciscans of any branch will close the parish down, if necessary, rather than sacrifice their time with their brothers. In most Franciscan parishes confessions stop at prayer time, meal time, recreation time, chapter time and so forth. Unless it’s an emergency, you stop what you’re doing for the laity and join your brothers. Even Padre Pio, who was famous for his long hours in the confessional, never missed a community function to hear confessions. He would go back and forth between the community live, prayer and the confessional. He had a balance in his life. That’s how he achieved sanctity. You make sacrifices when there is no other choice and usually with the consent of your superior, at least you inform him after the fact, if you can’t inform him beforehand.

In the active communities the charism will determine the amount of time that the religious (brother or sister) spends with the laity and how much he/she spends with the community. Even Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity spend only four hours a day with the laity. The rest of the day is spent with community. The Jesuits, on the other hand, were not founded to live a community life like the Franciscans. They were founded to be teachers, preachers, missionaries and scholars. They spend little time together. But they do limit the time with the laity to fit into these apostolates that are their primary mission. In other words, a Jesuit is not going to spend the day listening to someone who has a mental handicap. He’ll find a kind way of sending the person home so that he can get back to his work.

Finally, everything that I’ve said above about religious men (brothers, friars, monks and priests) also applies to religious women (sisters and nuns). Each has a charism of their own.

I hope this helps someone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Susan_Calvin]

JReducation:

First of all, I would have to ask if the priest is also a religious or is he a secular priest.

My priest is diocesan / secular - not a member of a religious community.

Thanks Brother JR, that was very helpful and it makes a lot more sense to me now. I will share what you wrote with the others. I always enjoy reading what you have to say!

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

It sounds as though your priest is setting boundaries in a charitable way…but we do need to be careful that we do not “set boundaries” that exclude real people with real needs, including the mentally ill from our Church… Mental illness is not an easy thing for us to understand, but this woman really is Jesus in His Distressing Disguise.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

One other thought concerning this lady and her illness- There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The situation is very close to me. In a previous church we had a member who was mentally ill who also focused a large part of her day around the church. Our new pastor, in setting ‘boundaries’ actually ended up making her and her family feel thrown out by the church. I do agree that the church staff (lay people) should not be required to visit with one parishioner all day to the detriment of their other work. And of course the pastor cannot devote his entire day to one person either. But this woman (either of these women) is indeed the face of Christ and in setting those boundaries, the church needs to be sure that she is cared for as well.

Perhaps you can take it upon yourself to see if there is an adult activity center where she can spend part of her day. Her family probably also need some ‘respite’ care so a place or activities where she can participate and be safe would be great. Are there jobs she could be assigned at the church? She could attend meetings of the rosary group, spend time in adoration, help with the flowers, stuff envelopes, etc.

The monk is not correct to say that a diocesan priest (especially a pastor) should drop everything to attend to one parishioner who is not having an emergency (danger of death, etc.), but he brings up a good point that we all as ‘church’ should be hospitable to those in need.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

It sounds as though your priest is setting boundaries in a charitable way…but we do need to be careful that we do not “set boundaries” that exclude real people with real needs, including the mentally ill from our Church… Mental illness is not an easy thing for us to understand, but this woman really is Jesus in His Distressing Disguise.

Mrs Sally:

In a previous church we had a member who was mentally ill who also focused a large part of her day around the church. Our new pastor, in setting ‘boundaries’ actually ended up making her and her family feel thrown out by the church. I do agree that the church staff (lay people) should not be required to visit with one parishioner all day to the detriment of their other work. And of course the pastor cannot devote his entire day to one person either. But this woman (either of these women) is indeed the face of Christ and in setting those boundaries, the church needs to be sure that she is cared for as well.

Yup I totally get what you are both saying, and I agree. We have other parishioners who are mentally ill, mentally challenged, etc, and I think they are made to feel welcome. One works for the parish and he is there every day, I speak to him frequently and he is a really nice man. I’m sorry to hear what happened to that other lady and her family.

However, this lady is more than simply mentally ill and lonely, she would if allowed, talk to the church secretary upwards of 10-15 times a day, see the priest and the deacon privately at least once a day for a long chat… she attends every single mass (3 daily and 5 on sunday), and has engaged in obsessive, stalking like behaviour with some parishioners.

It just occurred to me that our former monk works full time away from the church so he probably doesn’t realize the extent of what the staff go through with her daily.

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Is she a very nosy lady who always chooses to have a big teethy “perma smile” on?

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Is she part of the staff or just a very nosy lady who puts on a big teethy “perma smile”?

Haha… no she is not staff. She lives directly across the street from the church and basically spends her days there as she is on disability and doesn’t have any other interests or social outlets. The church is great for her, gives her something to do, comforts her, and she does have a strong faith, but she can be very demanding, very focused on herself, etc…

And the debate we are having with the former monk is basically, is she Christ in disguise, and should those who are discerning religious life therefore drop everything and pay attention to a person like her everytime one shows up? Its a nice idea in theory, but when someone like her comes along it gets rather complicated…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

She sounds incredibly similar to the woman at my previous church (who has since died of complications from diabetes–please pray for her!). It sounds like the church should call in their professional connections and find an adult day care, activity center, senior group, or similar organizations and set up some kind of schedule for her time. Many places like that have vans that will come pick people up and the folks who staff them are trained in handling her obsessive behavior.

Laura, the woman I knew, had that kind of ‘stalking’ issue also. At the time, my youngest was in a few hours of pre-school 2x a week. So, once a week I would spend those few hours with her. She would still call me, even later that same day, because she was lonely and because her illness affected her knowledge of appropriate behavior.

I am praying for your situation.

 

[Susan_Calvin]

Thanks for the prayers. Please pray for the discerners also, especially the 4 young men who are considering becoming priests!