Priests and TLM

[Catholic_Duck]

Hi, I was wondering, because as far as I am aware any roman rite priest can pick up a Latin missal and say TLM without telling the Bishop etc. So long as he knows what he’s doing and follows the rubrics. However what really confused me is that one website said they had to go to the Bishop to obtain faculties to say Latin mass. Which one is it? Any help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[ProVobis]

According to the SP, any priest technically has the permission to say the TLM. But the economics has to play a key role, I would think, especially when trying to find the right place for it. That’s where the bishop would have a say.

 

[pianistclare]

Hi, I was wondering, because as far as I am aware any roman rite priest can pick up a Latin missal and say TLM without telling the Bishop etc. So long as he knows what he’s doing and follows the rubrics. However what really confused me is that one website said they had to go to the Bishop to obtain faculties to say Latin mass. Which one is it? Any help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

There’s a lot more to it.
The Bishop has to be convinced there is a need and strong desire from a suitable number of people due to the expense of the things needed, and whether or not it causes the priest to go over his daily limit of Masses, etc.
For ex: my priest said he was not interested since he was not fluent, in Latin, and would not want to do something less than perfectly for a possible 4-6 people who might actually show up.

There’s lots of threads on beginning a Latin Mass in your home parish, try the search function.

Obedience to one’s Bishop is always foremost.

 

[Brendan_64]

There’s a lot more to it.
The Bishop has to be convinced there is a need and strong desire from a suitable number of people due to the expense of the things needed, and whether or not it causes the priest to go over his daily limit of Masses, etc.

I don’t believe that this is the case. My understanding is that Summorum Pontificum removes the need for permission and that an individual priest can decide himself to say a TLM regardless of the numbers of people attending. As for the daily Mass limit, this only applies in practical terms to Sunday Masses, and even then many bishops will not be to particular about whether a priest says a Mass over his official limit. So for a priest to decide to say a TLM Mass (including a regular Mass) on a weekday, he does not need permission from his bishop. The key is finding a priest willing to offer this, and I suspect there and quite a number of priests who would love to do this for a group of the faithful who would desire it.

 

[Catholic_Duck]

But what about priests that want to say mass on their own, do they still have to go to the Bishop?

 

[Brendan_64]

But what about priests that want to say mass on their own, do they still have to go to the Bishop?

As far as I am aware they can just go ahead and say Mass if they wish to, and they can do this in their own parish church for their congregation or whoever else wishes to come along.

Going to the bishop relates to where TLM Mass is not currently offered and a group would like the bishop to arrange for this to be provided. But if an individual priest wishes to offer to he is entitled to do so and does not need to ask for his bishop’s permission.

 

[ialsop]

As far as I am aware they can just go ahead and say Mass if they wish to, and they can do this in their own parish church for their congregation or whoever else wishes to come along.

Going to the bishop relates to where TLM Mass is not currently offered and a group would like the bishop to arrange for this to be provided. But if an individual priest wishes to offer to he is entitled to do so and does not need to ask for his bishop’s permission.

This is correct. Good answer.

 

[TheDoctor]

I think it depends. Summorum Pontificum seems to envision 3 scenarios:

1. If the Priest is just celebrating Mass privately, he does not need to consult the Bishop:
   Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without a congregation, any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use either the Roman Missal published in 1962 by Blessed Pope John XXIII or the Roman Missal promulgated in 1970 by Pope Paul VI, and may do so on any day, with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such a celebration with either Missal, the priest needs no permission from the Apostolic See or from his own Ordinary.
2. If someone walks into Church while Father is saying his private Mass or Father invites some to be at Mass he also does not need to consult the Bishop:
   Art. 4. The celebrations of Holy Mass mentioned above in Art. 2 may be attended also by members of the lay faithful who spontaneously request to do so, with respect for the requirements of law.
3. If the Priest wishes to celebrate a an ongoing Mass for a regular group, then he would to consult his Bishop.
   Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists, the parish priest should willingly accede to their requests to celebrate Holy Mass according to the rite of the 1962 Roman Missal. He should ensure that the good of these members of the faithful is harmonized with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the governance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.
   All that being said, the necessity to consult with the Bishop is Father’s decision, and as laity we can ask for our own information but must never assume that we know for certain what Father does or does not need to do.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Hi, I was wondering, because as far as I am aware any roman rite priest can pick up a Latin missal and say TLM without telling the Bishop etc. So long as he knows what he’s doing and follows the rubrics. However what really confused me is that one website said they had to go to the Bishop to obtain faculties to say Latin mass. Which one is it? Any help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Prior to the issuance of Summorum Pontificum by Pope Benedict XVI, we had to have an indult to say the vetus ordo Mass. A priest could apply for the indult from the bishop or, if there was a problem in obtaining it, he could ask the Holy See directly through the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

Similarly, communities in the 1980s and thereafter could petition their bishop for an indult Mass. I provided it to a group who had petitioned for it and whose petition was granted. I did this at the assignment of the bishop; thus, I held the indult for the period of time I had that pastoral charge. When that concluded, I returned the indult to the bishop and I have never celebrated Mass in the vetus ordo since…although I have provided other sacraments using the ritual of the vetus ordo, when specifically requested, in the wake of Summorum Pontificum. I can’t imagine though a circumstance in which I would offer Mass using the 1962 missal, now that I am retired.

Today, as granted by Pope Benedict, any priest in the world could offer the vetus ordo as his private Mass, provided his Latin is sufficient to the task.

Summorum Pontificum delineates how this Mass could be celebrated for stable groups of the faithful who petition for it. An accession to such a petition should be done in concert with the bishop of the diocese in that circumstance, since the bishop is the moderator of the liturgy of the diocese. Presumably, the priest holds pastoral responsibilities which would have to be accounted for in addition to providing a Mass in the vetus ordo.

I don’t believe that this is the case. My understanding is that Summorum Pontificum removes the need for permission and that an individual priest can decide himself to say a TLM regardless of the numbers of people attending. As for the daily Mass limit, this only applies in practical terms to Sunday Masses, and even then many bishops will not be to particular about whether a priest says a Mass over his official limit. So for a priest to decide to say a TLM Mass (including a regular Mass) on a weekday, he does not need permission from his bishop. The key is finding a priest willing to offer this, and I suspect there and quite a number of priests who would love to do this for a group of the faithful who would desire it.

The limits imposed by Canon Law regarding bination on weekdays and trination on Sunday are not light matters and it would be very wrong if your bishop is somehow conveying that they are…and still less that “many bishops will not be particular”. You do understand that the CDW’s opinion is decidedly different, I should hope.

I also do not understand why you say a priest saying a second Mass does not need his bishop’s permission.

*Can. 905 §1. A priest is not permitted to celebrate the Eucharist more than once a day except in cases where the law permits him to celebrate or concelebrate more than once on the same day.

§2. If there is a shortage of priests, the local ordinary can allow priests to celebrate twice a day for a just cause, or if pastoral necessity requires it, even three times on Sundays and holy days of obligation.*
In my case, the bishop would give to priests as needed a habitual permission to binate on weekdays and to trinate on Sunday – but the conditions for doing so were exceedingly clear: the second Mass was a wedding, a funeral, or providing coverage for a priest absent or sick.

We had to report regularly if and how the permission was being used. We were not to take this matter lightly…precisely because it is not a light matter in canon law to exceed the once per day norm for the offering of the Holy Mass. In consultation with the diocesan curia, I had to cease offering a scheduled weekday Mass on Saturday morning, for example, in order to not exceed the limits of two Masses on Saturday – and specifically so the anticipated Mass on Saturday evening could count as a Saturday Mass – so as to be able to celebrate three Masses during the day on Sunday, all to be in compliance with Canon 905.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

All that being said, the necessity to consult with the Bishop is Father’s decision, and as laity we can ask for our own information but must never assume that we know for certain what Father does or does not need to do.

Your explanation is well said.

Thank you for this last bit. I am always somewhat amused – and sometimes less than amused – when someone who is not a priest begins to inform me of what they think I can and cannot do in matters liturgical…since not only have I been doing liturgies for decades, I seem to have demonstrated enough competence, academically and practically, to have been entrusted as a professor of liturgy and sacraments with preparing future priests to do what I do and not do what I don’t do…and to be a master of ceremonies to bishops.

 

[ProVobis]

Going to the bishop relates to where TLM Mass is not currently offered and a group would like the bishop to arrange for this to be provided. But if an individual priest wishes to offer to he is entitled to do so and does not need to ask for his bishop’s permission.

Yes, but this “group” if assembled will probably consist of members of several if not many parishes. In my experience I’ve found not more than a handful within one parish, if any at all, who would be willing to join that group. Just being realistic here, wish there could be more.

 

[ProVobis]

For ex: my priest said he was not interested since he was not fluent, in Latin, and would not want to do something less than perfectly for a possible 4-6 people who might actually show up.

There’s lots of threads on beginning a Latin Mass in your home parish…

Realistically you probably won’t find more than 4-6 people in a well-established parish who would be interested in a TLM, if any at all. So if you want to form a TLM group you would somehow have to find people across several if not many parishes within that diocese. And even if you can get 100-150 to show up every week, you still have to get a priest, servers, missal, choir, etc and provide some training material as well. Not easy to do at all.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Realistically you probably won’t find more than 4-6 people in a well-established parish who would be interested in a TLM, if any at all. So if you want to form a TLM group you would somehow have to find people across several if not many parishes within that diocese. And even if you can get 100-150 to show up every week, you still have to get a priest, servers, missal, choir, etc and provide some training material as well. Not easy to do at all.

Actually, I have to say, that has not been my experience. I have typically met in a given parish far more than 4-6 people who have an interest in the Mass of the vetus ordo. That is of course a different question from attending a Mass of the vetus ordo…though those in the first group typically would also be in the second.

But these are different questions from committing to attend a vetus ordo Mass on a regular and on-going basis and particularly with the constraints one normally faces in scheduling one, given the competition for Church resources and facilities.

When I offered the vetus ordo Mass for the group who sought it, it had to be on Saturday evening, after the anticipated Mass, or else on Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening. I never had a hundred people at a vetus ordo Mass I celebrated.

Much depends upon what a given presbyterate can sustain. In my case, it was surely the smallest group that had the benefit of a Sunday Mass, other than the cloistered nuns, but we were able to do it. If it was a question of a parish having to do without a Mass attended by several hundred people in order to provide for a group of 30-50…that is problematic.

At the end of the day, the person(s) petitioning have to have a committed group or its unsustainable…unless the priest himself just wishes to offer that Mass for his own sake and has the liberty as to the burdens of his pastoral responsibilities to do so.

I remember that we would have people who would visit because they had a more or less inchoate interest. Some times it would be a time or two…sometimes for several weeks – or else they would come a time or two and then six months later, the whim would move them to come again.

We had a few attending who would come because it was convenient for their schedule or location but we never knew when or if they would come and those never seemed that interested in it in the way that those who petitioned for it were. They were seeking Mass and if it had been a novus ordo Mass or, for that matter, the Divine Liturgy of one of the Catholic Churches of the East occurring instead, I think they would have as likely attended that.

 

[Brendan_64]

Actually, I have to say, that has not been my experience. I have typically met in a given parish far more than 4-6 people who have an interest in the Mass of the vetus ordo. That is of course a different question from attending a Mass of the vetus ordo…though those in the first group typically would also be in the second.

Father, in your opinion, what sort of numbers would constitute a “stable group” as per the requirements of Summorum Pontificum? The fact that there is no qualification or indication in the document as to what size this would need to be is not particularly helpful. 4, 6, 12, 20, 50? How are we to know what actually constitutes a “stable group”?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, in your opinion, what sort of numbers would constitute a “stable group” as per the requirements of Summorum Pontificum? The fact that there is no qualification or indication in the document as to what size this would need to be is not particularly helpful. 4, 6, 12, 20, 50? How are we to know what actually constitutes a “stable group”?

It’s a good question. I think, frankly, this has to be one of the most frustrating aspects of the provisions in Summorum Pontificum for everyone concerned

I don’t think any of us can come up with a really effective answer that all would find satisfying. And that makes it difficult

It’s something you have to dialogue about. That’s where having the bishop’s good will is important. Laity may present him with a number that seems perfectly reasonable but he answers…I don’t have a priest that I can divert to this apostolate. That’s a problem; priests are not easily made. Or, we can only offer X chapel from such and such hours…can you make that work?

I can’t really speak in the abstract on this issue, so allow me to be a bit more concrete

The situation so varies from the different countries in Europe to North America to Latin America to Asia and Africa. And in any of those I just recited, the difference between the different countries and within the dioceses can be so extreme…it has to be on a case by case basis

All else being equal, for me and my circumstance, a group of 20-30 for a weekday Mass is significant. A group of 150-200 for a Sunday Mass is significant

If I offered a private Mass on my day off and there were 4-6 people who said, we commit ourselves to come and attend your weekday Mass using the 1962 Missal, and they were reliable and earnest, I would say that’s a “stable group”

On Sunday, though, many priests come up against the brick wall of having to trinate and we need dispensation to exceed that. In my situation the indult group at its largest had, maybe, 70 people for a special occasion…an all hands on deck moment. Small for a Sunday Mass but still manageable against the demographics of the diocese and the ratio of priests to laity at that time

But when you have fewer priests and more language groups (migrant workers, for example) that you are trying to provide pastoral care to…that can pull priests with languages, and then a special ministry to this stable group becomes one more piece on the puzzle that has to be made to work with all the other pieces

And this bit can NEVER be forgotten: The bishop and the presbyterate have to provide pastoral care to all the souls in the diocese…to the extent and the best that they can. Some requests will simply not be sustainable and not for want of good will. Whether its Mass in the vetus ordo or sacraments in Tagalog. And you can’t burn out the priests. That creates more problem than what occasioned it was solving

A lot of dioceses are not that fortunate to be able to accommodate such an apostolate for a number like we did, given today’s realities…and that frankly is a problem for all…bishop, priests and laity

I think we have to understand that it is not just a matter of number in an equation apart from other factors. In a business model, you have limited resources (church space available) and limited personnel (priests) and high demand for the commodity (ratio of priests to the total number of Masses a diocese celebrates on Saturday evening/Sunday). That has to be part of the equation as you look at how large the group has to be in order to attempt to redeploy scarce resources

This is not even something every priest can do. The last of those ordained offering this Mass out of seminary are now in their mid 70s and higher. Not all the younger priests are able to acquire this ability at this point in life and so the pool to draw from is smaller although some of the youngest ones are quite gung ho about it

All this is getting at…I think the criteria of the minimum number cannot be absolutised. I think it has to be evaluated in light of many factors and that it’s a variable number from one diocese to another

If one of the institutes devoted to the exclusive use of the vetus ordo is at hand, it could be done with 4 or 6, I suppose…they can’t do anything else but the vetus ordo in the diocese so they can’t be used in any other way. Other bishops could say a number more like mine…30-50, like we had

I imagine there are dioceses so stretched that the number would have to be a couple hundred to try to find a resource to divert to the need and the resource might be able to provide a monthly as opposed to a weekly Mass

The same group of 20 people in New York City has to have very different implications than the group of 20 people would in Malta or the same 20 people in rural North Dakota

Beyond the number, if you have a group of whatever size, provided they are stable and they are committed, you try to begin a dialogue with the diocese as to what is feasible on their side. I think there is a dimension of reasonableness that goes two ways

If you have 20 people and you find out that the average Mass attendance is 800 and the diocese is stretched, I think you can understand it’s not logistically possible

On the other hand, in the very same situation, you have a priest in a nursing home who says if the group comes, he will celebrate it for them, then whatever the other needs are, you are able to exist in a special niche and you should be able to…this priest can’t be deployed for other ministry and if you can go to him and it works for all concerned, then you have a solution

Unless he can only do one thing in his nursing home ministry and the stable group is a group of 15 wanting the vetus ordo Mass up against a group of 75 Vietnamese who would also come to the nursing home chapel and he is the only priest who speaks Vietnamese. Then the bishop has to decide

 

[ProVobis]

The fact that there is no qualification or indication in the document as to what size this would need to be is not particularly helpful. 4, 6, 12, 20, 50? How are we to know what actually constitutes a “stable group”?

To put things into proper economic perspective, I know of a Protestant minister (actually he’s a laicized priest but that’s beside the point) who has a weekly congregation of 11. Three of them are doctors, however, so that helps enormously in paying the bills. Now, that’s stability, even if it might be short-lived.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

To put things into proper economic perspective, I know of a Protestant minister (actually he’s a laicized priest but that’s beside the point) who has a weekly congregation of 11. Three of them are doctors, however, so that helps enormously in paying the bills. Now, that’s stability, even if it might be short-lived.

I really don’t consider the economic issue relevant for the resolution of the stable group question.

Obviously, the Mass has to take place in a sacred space. That has to be found. I have never charged for that. When it came to where the indult Mass was over which I presided, there was an offertory collection that gave enough money to make an offering for the use of the chapel.

The bigger question is having a priest who is within his canonical limit of Masses that he offers on a Sunday, who is able to do it linguistically and ritually, and who is willing to do it, and has a space that is available to him and to an adequate number of the group seeking it – and does not have a more pressing pastoral obligation.

 

[Brendan_64]

To put things into proper economic perspective, I know of a Protestant minister (actually he’s a laicized priest but that’s beside the point) who has a weekly congregation of 11. Three of them are doctors, however, so that helps enormously in paying the bills. Now, that’s stability, even if it might be short-lived.

I know of a Catholic parish near me where the weekly congregation isn’t usually much more than 8 or 9 (it used to be more, but that’s another story).

Oh and to Don Ruggero, thank you very much Father for your answer to my earlier post about what constitutes a “stable group”. I guess it does depend very much on circumstances, demographics etc. and can’t actually be quantified in general terms, particularly for the global Universal Church.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A bishop still has authority. I live in a place where the old bishop actively suppressed the TLM. The new bishop has not seen fit to address this yet. (I’m sure he is busy). We have a priest who wants to offer it and a large group who wishes to attend.

 

[IOGD]

I don’t think anyone posted this SP quote so here y’all go–

Art. 7. If a group of the lay faithful, as mentioned in Art. 5, §1, has not been granted its requests by the parish priest, it should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is earnestly requested to satisfy their desire. If he does not wish to provide for such celebration, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

Perhaps Father could enlighten us. I’m working on starting one at my parish and it’d be great to have his (name removed by moderator)ut on this quote.

It has always seemed to me that this implies the bishop can’t really say you aren’t allowed…? Unless he wants to deal with ED. And I’ve never heard Art. 5, §1 explained in such a way as Father did earlier on, that the bishop could say no, so I’m just a bit curious.

And just a clarification from him-- the vetus ordo can be celebrated in a parish setting for a community of the faithful who wish to attend on a regular basis without question from the ordinary as long as said priest (assumed to be willing to celebrate it) doesn’t have any other obligations or works to be done? That would be the case in my parish.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and God Bless!