Priests concelebrating the Extraordinary Form

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Can priests concelebrate the Extraordinary Form? One source told me that they cannot, that they have to “sit in choir”?

What does “sit in choir” mean?

What vestments do they wear?

Do they walk in the processional/recessional?

Do they have any of the priest prayers during the Mass?

Any special gestures?

Do they distribute communion?

Etc.
 
There are only a couple of exceptional circumstances for concelebration in the EF, I think ordination is one of them. But regularly, no.

“Sit in choir” means to sit in the choir part of the church, typically between the nave and the sanctuary, or behind the sanctuary and the far wall, or in the sanctuary.

Choir (Church architecture)

For the rest I can’t help as I am not familiar with the EF, there being no licit EF Masses where I live.
 
I don’t know of any concelebration in the EF. I’m not that experienced with it, but in a regular EF Mass, there is only one celebrant. Now, there are different types of Masses - there is a Missa Cantata, in which there is a “deacon.” Now, as far as I know, in the EF a priest can and often does take the role of “deacon” in the Missa Cantata. Same with the Missa Solemnis - in addition to the celebrant, there is a deacon and a subdeacon, and both roles can be taken by priests.

But, no concelebration. The when deacons and subdeacons are up there, they divide up the singing of the chants. More specific information could be found, if you are interested, at sanctamissa.org. Or, you could just wait for posters who know more about it than I do. 🙂
 
FriendlySkeptic said:
Can priests concelebrate the Extraordinary Form? One source told me that they cannot, that they have to “sit in choir”?

What does “sit in choir” mean?

What vestments do they wear?

Do they walk in the processional/recessional?

Do they have any of the priest prayers during the Mass?

Any special gestures?

Do they distribute communion?

Etc.
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Except during ordinations, there is no concelebration in the EF.

It means they sit in the choir section of the church (not the choir loft where the team more commonly known as the “choir”, i.e. the singers), in rows facing each other. In churches with no choir, they can sit on pews set up alongside the sides of the sanctuary, or even the first few rows in the nave if absolutely necessary.

They are vested in cassock and surplice. If they expect to distribute Communion, they would also carry their chasuble folded over an arm.

Yes, they walk in procession.

No, they say no prayers during the Mass.

No, there are no special gestures.

Yes, they may distribute Communion. Not all have to. If they do, they put on their stoles for Communion.

It is also possible for a non-celebrating priest to preach the sermon or homily, during which he also puts on a stole.
 
bobballen_18 said:
I don’t know of any concelebration in the EF. I’m not that experienced with it, but in a regular EF Mass, there is only one celebrant. Now, there are different types of Masses - there is a Missa Cantata, in which there is a “deacon.” Now, as far as I know, in the EF a priest can and often does take the role of “deacon” in the Missa Cantata. Same with the Missa Solemnis - in addition to the celebrant, there is a deacon and a subdeacon, and both roles can be taken by priests.

But, no concelebration. The when deacons and subdeacons are up there, they divide up the singing of the chants. More specific information could be found, if you are interested, at sanctamissa.org. Or, you could just wait for posters who know more about it than I do. 🙂
Click to expand...
There is no deacon for a Missa Cantata. During a solemn High Mass, there is a deacon and subdeacon. There is no EF Mass where there is a deacon without a subdeacon.
 
In the Extraordinary Form, concelebration only takes place at presbyteral and episcopal ordinations.

At a presbyteral ordination, the ordaining bishop celebrates the Mass, praying the Canon of the Mass audibly (usually, it is prayed quietly). The newly ordained are kneeling near the altar, and praying the Canon of the Mass inaudibly. The newly ordained only receive the Eucharist under one species (the Body of Christ), but receive an oblation of unconcecrated wine after Communion.

I’m less familiar with episcopal ordinations in the Extraordinary Form. I believe the newly ordained bishop celebrates the Mass audibly, with the consecrating bishops celebrating inaudibly, in the manner of presbyteral ordinands mentioned above.

“Sitting in choir” refers to the choir of a church, the area in the sanctuary between the communion rail and the altar. The clergy sit here and give the responses to the Mass.

Choir dress is required for clerics in this situation. Diocesan clergy would wear a cassock, surplice, and biretta. Regular clergy (those belonging to a religious order) would wear whatever their order wears in that circumstance (e.g.: habit & cappa for Dominicans).

Clergy attending in choir can take part in the procession and recession, but I’ve never seen this done. They would be placed after the torchbearers (I think, I’m not certain), and genuflect before entering the choir stalls. Unlike sacred ministers, they process with heads uncovered.

When a priests helps distribute Holy Communion in choir, he places a stole over his surplice.
 
porthos11 said:
Except during ordinations, there is no concelebration in the EF.
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The Pontifical also allowed for concelebration, but was restricted in use - primarily for use during the Mass of the Oils, but also allowed for patronal feasts and ordinations. Possibly also Easter Sunday at the cathedral. In practice, only the mass of the oils and ordinations were done as concelebrations, excepting that the “assistant priest” was at the altar with the Bishop.

There also is the permission for concelebration within certain monastic communities; this is specific to their conventual masses, and is unique in how in each order where it is used. (Franciscans, for example, put the entire chapter, if small enough, surrounding the altar and the principal celebrant.)

Note that one persistent abuse of the pre-Vatican II era was that priests would vest as the deacon and subdeacon, serve those roles, but (as they would in choir) say communally the non-dignus and the words of institution. (A closely related abuse is that they were allowed to apply this to their requirement to say the mass daily.)

A priest “in choir” is typically in Cassock and Surplice, responds with the people, and only says the words of institution and the non-dignus as priests; they may serve as ministers of holy communion if the faithful number sufficient to justify it.

A deacon in choir is also in cassock and surplice, says only the people’s parts, and may serve as minister of holy communion if needed.

Note that many a deacon was relegated to the choir because a priest was serving as deacon in order to fulfil his obligation to “say mass”…
 
Aramis said:
Note that many a deacon was relegated to the choir because a priest was serving as deacon in order to fulfil his obligation to “say mass”…
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It would seem to me that serving as a deacon at Mass would not fulfill the priest’s obligation to say Mass, since he is not a concelebrant. Would he not have to say Mass on his own?
 
I imagine that some papal masses must have been concelebrated with his brother bishops, particularly the cardinals?
 
porthos11 said:
There is no deacon for a Missa Cantata. During a solemn High Mass, there is a deacon and subdeacon. There is no EF Mass where there is a deacon without a subdeacon.
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Yeah, Whoops, my bad, don’t know what I was thinking. :o
 
twf said:
I imagine that some papal masses must have been concelebrated with his brother bishops, particularly the cardinals?
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Only in the limited fashion prescribed for any bishop, with the concelebrants being limited to the assistant priest, deacon, and subdeacon (and the deacon and subdeacon properly not being concelebrants).

As for the priests serving as deacon and subdeacon - Rome permitted it in the diocese of Rome, so everyone else allowed it, too. The abuse was two-fold - (1) they vested downwards, rather than vesting as priests and merely serving as deacon/subdeacon, and (2) they displaced those whose primary order was deacon or subdeacon.

The using it to fulfill the obligation to celebrate the mass? Not so much - they’re still serving as an ordained minister in the celebration, and Rome allowed it in rome, and didn’t disallow it elsewhere, from about 1500 on… which is about the same as the obligation to say mass daily.

But, from 1500 through the present - most Roman priests are alone in a parish. Only recently has the norm been to add a deacon or two… as in the last 15 to 20 years.
 
Aramis said:
But, from 1500 through the present - most Roman priests are alone in a parish. Only recently has the norm been to add a deacon or two… as in the last 15 to 20 years.
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I’m not sure I agree with you there. It seems in the 50’s priests greatly outnumbered deacons in parishes. Many in the pews might have even been shocked if a transitional deacon, if they ever saw one, were to have distributed communion then.
 
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