Priests more into psychology than Jesus..

[distracted]

A mental illness may make it more difficult for someone to be moral. They may suffer more.

I am “mental” and it IS difficult for me to be moral… (Just kidding… i think… )… Actually, i could be called scrupulous… but you know… now that i think about it, i think eveyrone is supposed to be scrupulous… its just that you aren’t supposed to be OVERLy scrupulous… but anyway, i digress…

But God has given each person the faculties for morality (even though we need grace!) and the idea that some people are immoral because of a mental illness that needs a drug is very wrong, if you ask me.

right… but don’t you think t hat most people nowadays are just immoral anyway and that the norm is to be amoral/immoral?? I mean… i don’t watch TV to speak of… but some of the few times i have turned it on to see what kind of educational thing i could find… i have run into things like 2 1/2 Losers (what i call it)… I don’t get out much… as they say… so i am thinking: Is life out there (outside my “world”) really THAT bad??? I mean, is fornication THAT causal and meaningless??? uch:

 

[Fran65]

But I can’t see how we as Christians can say that morality can be affected because of mental illness.

Morality is not affected, but moral behaviour is. The Catechism states:

For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with **full knowledge **and deliberate consent.” CCC 1857

Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. CCC 1860

Mental illness, depending upon degree, leads to a lack of capacity to consent and is an impediment to full knowledge. This is also enshrined in our legal system when dealing with crimes committed when mentally ill. That’s what’s called ‘diminished responsibility’.

And I can’t help but hear the implicit cry of evolution that was a key component to the “fathers” of psychiatry: we must evolve and perfect ourselves by these means. … Why need God when you can take a pill to be more moral? … I hardly think this man is alone.

I now understand why we disagree in some areas. I’m a Catholic and a scientist. I think that God works through the physical laws of the universe, and I don’t see any contradiction between believing in evolution and believing in God having created us. He created the universe, all of its matter and all of its laws.I also think that understanding the ourselves and the physical world brings us closer to God. Why else would He have given us an intellect?

I noted that you’ve changed your argument to talking about morality now and not whether mental illness exists. As I said in an earlier post, why would other organs and tissues fail, but not the nervous system? Or are you also suggesting that behaviour has nothing to do with the nervous system?

The argument that mental illness is due to immorality has a very long and sad history. I refer you back to my earlier post that described some of the consequences of this belief.

How do you explain symptoms that are not to do with ‘morality’, such as experiencing auditory and visual hallucinations? Obsessional behaviour such as hand washing? Fear of large spaces?

Oh, let me take a guess - fear of large spaces = not doing chores, not going out to work, not contributing to society = avoiding responsibility and being immoral. That’s neat.

Karen

 

[strugglingalong]

Morality is not affected, but moral behaviour is. The Catechism states:

Mental illness, depending upon degree, leads to a lack of capacity to consent and is an impediment to full knowledge. This is also enshrined in our legal system when dealing with crimes committed when mentally ill. That’s what’s called ‘diminished responsibility’.

My point is when science and psychiatry say that morality is essentially biological - therefore a serial killer has a mental illness that can be cured with medication. That is the problem. It denies the existence - or can deny the existence - of original sin, fallen humanity and the fact that people simply make their choices.

I now understand why we disagree in some areas. I’m a Catholic and a scientist. I think that God works through the physical laws of the universe, and I don’t see any contradiction between believing in evolution and believing in God having created us. He created the universe, all of its matter and all of its laws.I also think that understanding the ourselves and the physical world brings us closer to God. Why else would He have given us an intellect?

The problem is whether things evolved per se but there are many - very many - who see evolution as an ideology spanning everything from material generation to morality to anything else. There are very many who see evolution as humanity purging themselves, perfecting themselves, and thus they advocate eugenics or medication to this end. Honestly, I don’t care about evolution but I know there are a lot of people - a lot - who have an ideology attached to it - they want to disprove God, they want to improve humanity by their own ingenuity, they want to control what we’ve said only is to be governed by God. That is a problem.

I noted that you’ve changed your argument to talking about morality now and not whether mental illness exists. As I said in an earlier post, why would other organs and tissues fail, but not the nervous system? Or are you also suggesting that behaviour has nothing to do with the nervous system?

Because the study I noted is a psychiatrist saying that we can and should use medication as a means to morality, as a means for people to act as they should. That is highly problematic. To say psychiatry is separate from morality is difficult since the two overlap - which is why it is difficult to ascertain when someone has a legitimate biological problem or is at their own fault.

Perhaps you can explain how the nervous system governs behavior? For those who are out of right reason I can see how that is involved but not sure with the nervous system.

Look, I’m not saying legitimate mental illnesses do not exist. What I am saying is that there is a majority out there who deny the existence of the soul, who think everything is biological (including morality), and who think medication is always the solution to every problem. That is an ideology. That is a problem.

The argument that mental illness is due to immorality has a very long and sad history. I refer you back to my earlier post that described some of the consequences of this belief.

I’m not saying all mental illness is due to immorality or lack of an attempt to deal with one’s problems but I am saying that that can be the case (and I do tend to think it is the case more often than many want to admit). I think this mortal sin clouds our intellect it would be little wonder that giving oneself over to immorality would also result in irrational thinking and behaviors but not all mental illness is that. Mental illness can be biological. It can be a nervous system disorder. **I just question how often that is the case. **

How do you explain symptoms that are not to do with ‘morality’, such as experiencing auditory and visual hallucinations? Obsessional behaviour such as hand washing? Fear of large spaces?

Oh, let me take a guess - fear of large spaces = not doing chores, not going out to work, not contributing to society = avoiding responsibility and being immoral. That’s neat.

Karen

Well let me say this, I know people who have obsessive behaviors and they know why they do it - they just think they need to do it. They could think otherwise. Now I also have met people who obsess who don’t know why they do it and that is a case where perhaps something spiritual or something biological is at work.

Again, I am not denying that there can be biological reasons for a disorder. I am just saying that I doubt it is as often as most people make it out to be and that there are ideologues out there who have erroneous belief systems fueling their psychiatric practices.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

Fran,

What do you think of the study posted in post #138? What do you think of the idea of medication as moral assistance?

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

right… but don’t you think t hat most people nowadays are just immoral anyway and that the norm is to be amoral/immoral?? I mean… i don’t watch TV to speak of… but some of the few times i have turned it on to see what kind of educational thing i could find… i have run into things like 2 1/2 Losers (what i call it)… I don’t get out much… as they say… so i am thinking: Is life out there (outside my “world”) really THAT bad??? I mean, is fornication THAT causal and meaningless??? uch:

Yes, life out there is that bad and as people give themselves over to sin they become less rational, less in control of their own person and more influenced by the evil one. That is why we see dumb, stupid television shows and people who watch them. And yes, for most people fornication is no big deal and it is something you indulge in whenever two people agree on it - which is absolutely the opposite of God’s plan. There is a lot of the diabolical out there.

As for scrupulosity, I think God wants us to take the battle for virtue and the avoidance of all sin very seriously but we ought not look for sin where there is no sin, or worry if we’ve committed a sin when there is no evidence to support that we have. Our Lord is merciful and good. He doesn’t ask us to invent things but in all humility to confess what we have done, not to make up what we have not done. Humility is truth. I think God doesn’t want us scrupulous but humble, to realize our state and acknowledge it before Him without leaving anything out or addition anything in. But I think you meant that God wants us to be scrupulous in terms of paying attention to avoid even the least sins that offend Jesus - and that is definitely true!

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[pray4peace]

I have heard some very worldly advice coming from priests these days, whether in homilies or in the confessional or wherever…

This one priest, during confession, got very irritated w/ me because i wouldn’t agree to take psych drugs… When i said that (something to the effect of) i would rather carry my cross… He got angry and said something about … that i was inflicting crosses on others… Little does he know… I don’t socialize much, so can’t inflict too much of my cross on anyone… & when i do socialize, i try not to do such things…

anyway… another priest suggested i get counseling about this issue i brought up… Then he kept bringing up an issue from my distant past, went on and on about how i need to be healed of tht, even though i told him, in effect, that Jesus had already healed me and was continuing the process of healing… He seemed to ignore the issue i thought was most important… to focus on what he thought was important…

It just seems that priests nowadays (a lot of them) are more into psychology than spiritualiity… and True Psychology comes from Jesus… the one who knows us perfectly…

Have you experienced this or something like it??

I have not experienced this. I go to confession to tell my sins to the priest and be forgiven.
Priests are not social workers, guidance counselors or phychiatrists and we are asking too much if we expect them to act as such. If we want more than forgiveness of sins then we need to go elsewhere.

I find the priest gives excellent spiritual direction and we should not ask for anything more.

Please pray for our priests.

Blessings

 

[EasterJoy]

…I can’t see how we as Christians can say that morality can be affected because of mental illness. A mental illness may make it more difficult for someone to be moral. They may suffer more. But God has given each person the faculties for morality (even though we need grace!) and the idea that some people are immoral because of a mental illness that needs a drug is very wrong, if you ask me…

Sometimes mental illness makes morality difficult, sometimes it makes it impossible. Obviously, there are people who are just deranged, and no one thinks they are culpable for anything. Some people also do things that make everyone think, “That person must be sick!”, while in fact the person is as capable of virtue as anyone else. Serious sin alone is not evidence of a mental illness.

The question could be “where do we draw that line between bad will and bad health?”, but that really isn’t our job. The questions are:

a) will this drug treat an illness or relieve suffering in a way that is not harmful in other ways? This includes illnesses which harm moral, intellectual, or emotional capacity, or which rob a person of self-control.
b) does this drug allow the person the physical capacity to be more responsible for their own moral judgements or to make those moral judgements with less suffering and fewer lapses in judgement?
c) does this drug rob the person of capacities they need in order to serve God or enjoy the life God gave them as God intends? Does it cause any suffering or loss of capacity as a side effect?

This is not to say that if you were to cure the physical or emotional cause of a person’s kleptomania that the person wouldn’t still be free to steal things, if the person chose to. The treatment can only speak to those things which impair the capacity to use free will. Once the will is freed, it is still free…and yes, we all have our free will also mitigated by habitual sins.

It isn’t an either/or thing. It is both/and. You must have the capacity to make free choices for the good, but then you have to use your free will to actually make those choices.

To want to make good choices, though, but to lack the capacity to consistently make those choices: this is to suffer greatly! We must have compassion for that kind of suffering, and not just be content to leave the person in such a horrible pit. If there is medical treatment for such profound suffering, it is a good thing. I would much rather suffer physical pain than suffering like that.

 

[strugglingalong]

To want to make good choices, though, but to lack the capacity to consistently make those choices: this is to suffer greatly! We must have compassion for that kind of suffering, and not just be content to leave the person in such a horrible pit. If there is medical treatment for such profound suffering, it is a good thing. I would much rather suffer physical pain than suffering like that.

But how do you know when the problem is the person’s own faulty weakened will, when it is the effects on fallen human nature and when it is biological? That is the issue. We all, to various extents, lack the capacity to choose the good consistently. That is the effects of concupiscence. No drug can cure it nor should it attempt to do so. We all can say with St. Paul, “what I will to do that I do not do!” But it seems like the consensus, more and more, is to call that a mental illness that needs cured by modern science and psychiatry. What you refer to is the condition of fallen man without grace. We are not able to choose the good consistently on our own!

And I think this issue is the difficulty. The modern world, generally, dismisses Original Sin, fallen human nature, how the will is “downward bent” because of the fall, how the intellect is darkened from the fall, how continued mortal sins further impair the will and intellect. All of these things can easily lead to states that seem like a mental disorder. They can lead to people who seem to not have the ability to choose when in reality they do if they’d ask Jesus to strengthen them. The difficulty is knowing when it is that and when it is biological.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

But how do you know when the problem is the person’s own faulty weakened will, when it is the effects on fallen human nature and when it is biological? That is the issue. We all, to various extents, lack the capacity to choose the good consistently. That is the effects of concupiscence. No drug can cure it nor should it attempt to do so. We all can say with St. Paul, “what I will to do that I do not do!” But it seems like the consensus, more and more, is to call that a mental illness that needs cured by modern science and psychiatry.

Pax Christi tecum.

How do you know when a physical illness has a physical cause and when it is psychosomatic? You look for it. You keep trying. And you realize that there isn’t a magic silver bullet that is going to make your life easy. Life is hard. Sometimes, though, we make it harder than it needs to be. It is hard enough as it is.

I think you are right: there is a sense in which our society wants to make everything a medical problem. There is a flip side, though, too. If you self-medicate problems with alcohol that might have had a spiritual solution, you will soon have a physical dependance on alcohol that will require treatment for the physical alcoholism before you can successfully contend with the spiritual issue that started it all. Left untreated, physical withdrawal from alcohol can kill you.

I think Alcoholics Anonymous is a good example. That group recognizes alcoholism as a real physical problem that requires life-long spiritual treatment. But it starts with the admission that the alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, that with alcohol no amount of will-power or won’t-power will be a “cure.”

Again, it isn’t either/or with us. Physical problems have emotional effects, spiritual problems have physical effects. We’re all one piece.

 

[strugglingalong]

How do you know when a physical illness has a physical cause and when it is psychosomatic? You look for it. You keep trying. And you realize that there isn’t a magic silver bullet that is going to make your life easy. Life is hard. Sometimes, though, we make it harder than it needs to be. It is hard enough as it is.

I think you are right: there is a sense in which our society wants to make everything a medical problem. There is a flip side, though, too. If you self-medicate problems with alcohol that might have had a spiritual solution, you will soon have a physical dependance on alcohol that will require treatment for the physical alcoholism before you can successfully contend with the spiritual issue that started it all. Left untreated, physical withdrawal from alcohol can kill you.

I think Alcoholics Anonymous is a good example. That group recognizes alcoholism as a real physical problem that requires life-long spiritual treatment. But it starts with the admission that the alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, that with alcohol no amount of will-power or won’t-power will be a “cure.”

Again, it isn’t either/or with us. Physical problems have emotional effects, spiritual problems have physical effects. We’re all one piece.

Yes but there are moral problems that cannot be solved biologically. If a person cannot “consistently choose the good” then you can’t invent a moral pill that will help them to do so. Morality lives essentially in the reason and in the will. It is an act of persons in their souls. That is my problem with what that study I posted claims.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes but there are moral problems that cannot be solved biologically. If a person cannot “consistently choose the good” then you can’t invent a moral pill that will help them to do so. Morality lives essentially in the reason and in the will. It is an act of persons in their souls. That is my problem with what that study I posted claims.

Pax Christi tecum.

If a person will not choose the good, there isn’t a pill that will force them to make moral choices. You are right about that.

If a person *cannot *choose the good, then they aren’t even culpable. They and others still suffer from the ill-effects of their bad choices, but if they did not have the ability to choose virtue, they are not culpable for failing to choose it.

When people consistently choose evil, it is worthwhile to find out if there are physical or emotional constraints being placed on their moral choices, even if such people might become culpable if they continues to choose objective evils after their capacity was improved. Also, it is an objective moral good to relieve unnecessary suffering, even if the suffering is emotional. We wouldn’t leave a person with a broken leg because the suffering involved might have some good spiritual effect. I don’t mean we have to rush in and rescue everyone from the slings and arrows of life. Most of life’s wounds don’t need a BandAid. I mean problems of particular severity or duration, such that the suffering indicates a cause other than what “just life” dishes up.

Also, we should not teach people that limited moral capacity removes moral culpability entirely. We are bound to do our best with the capacities we have.

 

[strugglingalong]

When people consistently choose evil, it is worthwhile to find out if there are physical or emotional constraints being placed on their moral choices, even if such people might become culpable if they continues to choose objective evils after their capacity was improved.

I just don’t see how anyone - psychiatrist or not - can tell whether someone has emotional constraints that are beyond their power or something that takes away their ability to act - save in extreme case, such as in MR. That is why I think people see too much mental illness today because if there is any constraint, any difficult, or any blatant consistent evil behavior many people label it mental illness.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

I just don’t see how anyone - psychiatrist or not - can tell whether someone has emotional constraints that are beyond their power or something that takes away their ability to act - save in extreme case, such as in MR. That is why I think people see too much mental illness today because if there is any constraint, any difficult, or any blatant consistent evil behavior many people label it mental illness.

Pax Christi tecum.

I think you have not been there. This is the kind of thinking that says that an alcoholic just lacks self-control. That appraisal is hogwash, and an alcoholic who believes it is going to go through and put his or her family through a world of hurt. Successes in treating alcoholism with pure willpower are rare, and by “success” I just mean staying dry. Staying dry is only the first step of the solution to the hell it is to be an alcoholic.

What would you call it if a person can never keep appointments, set goals that they never reach, their life is a mess, they’re fighting all the time with their spouse, can never set themselves down and get anything done, they spend every day having “senior moments” where they start one thing, then something else, then something else, can’t remember what the first thing was, and every day is like that? They should start to believe they are just lazy, or just a ditz, and that is that? Why do you find it so hard to believe that trying harder is sometimes not the best solution?

Let us say that after a year of talking to somebody once a week and taking a certain dose of methylphenydate every day they can keep appointments, their work is getting done, life at home is improved, they can carry on a conversation without interrupting, the patient has stopped beating themselves up and having to confess over and over and over how unreliable they are,and instead has a regular prayer life and so on. Of course their life isn’t perfect, but they now have a realistic idea of what they can get done and how to do it, and their life finally has some peace. Their families have peace, their spouse has a real partner instead of a child. Stop the meds, the patients’ brains get fuzzy and they can’t concentrate. Stop the self-discipline and the learned routine, and they’re not getting things done again. As I said: it is both/and. There is self-discipline and spiritual growth required for successful treatment of many mental issues, but those alone do prove inadequate at times.

There are patients with ADD who can cope with their problem without drugs, by techniques of self-discipline tailored for them and the realization that not being able to run their lives as everyone else can is their cross to carry. Getting to that place, though, is rarely a do-it-yourself project. But do you think the methylphenadate is wrong for an adult whose life changes like the one described above, the ones whose thinking gets fuzzy when they stop their medication?

Doctors are getting results in identifying how the methylphenadate works in these patients, and why it might be that what is a stimulant for everyone else settles these people down. What they know is that sometimes it works. Should they not use it? They know some patients just want some uppers, and some are just looking for an excuse to continue to under-achieve. Yes, doctors have to be on the look-out for that. That doesn’t mean the drugs are bad. It means they need to be used with prudence.

 

[distracted]

And yes, for most people fornication is no big deal and it is something you indulge in whenever two people agree on it -

But what i can’t figure out is: Don’t people suffer serious consequences from fornication… I mean, you would htink that they would stop doing it for that reason alone… and many do, i am sure… but they keep churning out these awful, hideous shows like 2 1/2 Adolescents… I mean, even forgetting about God… fornication is just NOT a good idea… people get hurt from relationships that don’t work out… ?They get hurt even when sex is not involved… how much more so when they have given themselves to someone 'completely" like that…

i just don’t get it… I mean, even forgetting about Christianity… what about logic???

But then… i have been in love before and i DO know (remember) how… your brains can go out the window…

So… i guess we have to find ways to re-locate the darn thing…

 

[EasterJoy]

I just don’t see how anyone - psychiatrist or not - can tell whether someone has emotional constraints that are beyond their power or something that takes away their ability to act - save in extreme case, such as in MR…

You are right about this: to some degree, sometimes, doctors can’t tell whether, except when the treatment works and the patient, free to choose well, does so.

If a doctor tries to treat moral failings and emotional suffering and fails, they sometimes can’t know if they were barking up the wrong tree with their diagnosis or treatment, if they were just the wrong person to help that patient, or if the problem was that the patient refused to put forth the necessary effort…well, it is like a physical ailment. If at least part of what a patient needs to do is to comply with treatment, and the “treatment” fails, sometimes it is hard to tell if non-compliance was the problem, or part of it, or why. The patients even lie sometimes about the extent of their compliance. Even when the problem is a broken leg!

There isn’t an X-ray for that. I mean, you can tell if a patient keeps coming in with a broken leg and you find out they like to jump off of their garage. No compulsion, no regrets, they just like to do it. OK, that’s not a medical problem. That’s a choice problem. You can tell when the treatment works, too. There is a lot of ground between the two, though, you’re right.

 

[distracted]

I just don’t see how anyone - psychiatrist or not - can tell whether someone has emotional constraints that are beyond their power or something that takes away their ability to act .

That is my point…

I think a lot of time psychologists/psychiatrists are put on some kind of pedestal… They may be good for a few things… but they don’t know everything by a long shot…

I frankly don’t believe anyone can use their emotional condition to justify sinful behavior… I mean, it is one thing to say that it influenced the person… was a factor in his behavior … but i do not believe one’s emotional condition is any kidn of excuse…

besides, its like that “ditch analogy”… If three people fall into a ditch 6 ft deep in mud… one on purpose, one accidentally, one being pushed in by someone else…

One does not need to ask which one needs a bath???

Sin defiles no matter what the “factors” are…

No more excuses…!

 

[EasterJoy]

But what i can’t figure out is: Don’t people suffer serious consequences from fornication… I mean, you would htink that they would stop doing it for that reason alone… and many do, i am sure… but they keep churning out these awful, hideous shows like 2 1/2 Adolescents… I mean, even forgetting about God… fornication is just NOT a good idea… people get hurt from relationships that don’t work out… ?They get hurt even when sex is not involved… how much more so when they have given themselves to someone 'completely" like that…

i just don’t get it… I mean, even forgetting about Christianity… what about logic???

But then… i have been in love before and i DO know (remember) how… your brains can go out the window…

So… i guess we have to find ways to re-locate the darn thing…

I think it is like when people eat what they shouldn’t and then wonder, “Gee, why do I feel so bad? I must be picking the flu up somewhere. I bet their hygiene is bad at that restaurant. I’ll change restaurants.” They don’t want to admit that their misery may be due to their own choices.

Likewise, life can be judged to be lousy because “I’m unlucky about who I date”, because “men are users”, because “I can’t buy all the happy-happy stuff on TV”, because “I can’t ‘get laid’”. They can’t bring themselves to imagine that there is a big God-shaped cavern in the middle of them that nothing else is going to fill, particularly not if they bought a poor imitation of God that somebody in their past tried to peddle to them.

Or, they watch too much TV and can’t accept the idea that life is hard. So when it turns out that life is hard, they try to self-medicate the difficulty with sex or stuff or alcohol or work or, yes, get someone else to medicate them with psychiatric care. It isn’t just the doctors who push the idea that there is a pill to cure life.

 

[EasterJoy]

That is my point…

I think a lot of time psychologists/psychiatrists are put on some kind of pedestal… They may be good for a few things… but they don’t know everything by a long shot…

I frankly don’t believe anyone can use their emotional condition to justify sinful behavior… I mean, it is one thing to say that it influenced the person… was a factor in his behavior … but i do not believe one’s emotional condition is any kind of excuse…

besides, its like that “ditch analogy”… If three people fall into a ditch 6 ft deep in mud… one on purpose, one accidentally, one being pushed in by someone else…

One does not need to ask which one needs a bath???

Sin defiles no matter what the “factors” are…

No more excuses…!

The Church teaches that you have a responsibility to keep your car on the road. She does not teach that if you see someone in the ditch, they must be culpable.

If someone repeatedly found themselves in the ditch, in spite of their best efforts, or if they had to constantly pull on the wheel to keep their car out of the ditch, they would be nuts if they didn’t get their car’s steering checked by a mechanic. It wouldn’t be enough to ask the Lord to help them be better drivers…although, if I were driving that car, I would definitely do that, too!

That doesn’t imply that anyone with “TRAINED MECHANIC” and a certificate from the best local mechanic college tacked to their wall is going to figure out your problem. It doesn’t mean you have to believe everything your mechanic tells you about your car. It doesn’t imply that fixing the car will guarantee you will stay out of ditches. It doesn’t imply that, if you have some ability in that area, you can’t have at the problem in your own garage.

I do mean to imply that just trying harder isn’t always the common-sense solution. It isn’t fair to imply that it is.

 

[strugglingalong]

You are right about this: to some degree, sometimes, doctors can’t tell whether, except when the treatment works and the patient, free to choose well, does so.

If a doctor tries to treat moral failings and emotional suffering and fails, they sometimes can’t know if they were barking up the wrong tree with their diagnosis or treatment, if they were just the wrong person to help that patient, or if the problem was that the patient refused to put forth the necessary effort…well, it is like a physical ailment. If at least part of what a patient needs to do is to comply with treatment, and the “treatment” fails, sometimes it is hard to tell if non-compliance was the problem, or part of it, or why. The patients even lie sometimes about the extent of their compliance. Even when the problem is a broken leg!

There isn’t an X-ray for that. I mean, you can tell if a patient keeps coming in with a broken leg and you find out they like to jump off of their garage. No compulsion, no regrets, they just like to do it. OK, that’s not a medical problem. That’s a choice problem. You can tell when the treatment works, too. There is a lot of ground between the two, though, you’re right.

What I am saying, though, is that while a drug may give a desired result - i.e. the patient keeps appoints and does what he is supposed to do - that doesn’t mean the drug is good nor does it mean that the person could not have come to do those things without it. I am not talking just pure will power here. I am talking a person realizing their need for God, their inability do it themselves and their need for grace. What you describe sounds more like a fallen human being than a person with a mental disorder.

And AA does realize this in calling each person to recognize their need for a “high Power.”

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

If someone repeatedly found themselves in the ditch, in spite of their best efforts, or if they had to constantly pull on the wheel to keep their car out of the ditch, they would be nuts if they didn’t get their car’s steering checked by a mechanic. It wouldn’t be enough to ask the Lord to help them be better drivers…although, if I were driving that car, I would definitely do that, too!

But you’re taking about the will here and at times moral decisions. If a person continually fails in what they should do, we shouldn’t necessarily say they need a drug. They may need to persevere, work on understanding God’s mercy more and work on growing in their spiritual life. If you were talking about only confused thoughts, hearing things, etc. then I can see but when we start to talk about moral issues or just decision making, I wonder…

Pax Christi tecum.