Priests & Popes lying...justifiably

[Catholig]

I have two similar but slightly different questions -

1. Was it alright for those Catholic Martyrs to enter England just after it became protestant by lying?
2. Was it justified for Pope John XXIII to print baptismal certificates for Jews to save them from the Holocaust?

Both involve lying - but they seem to be for good reasons.

Catholig

 

[kencando]

Say yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no. For this reason I believe we have such division in the Church today. Each person has a free will and a conscience given by God. It is man’s DUTY to correctly form his conscience and follow God’s will for him. Deceit and lying are tools the devil used on Adam and Eve. My father said there are three ways to do things, the right way, the wrong, and the ways things are done.
Unfortunately we live on a knife edge to the road of salvation where we cannot be complacent in making decisions. There is an order of importance on issues of Salvation. God instructed the Jews to kill every living man, woman, child and beast living on His land given to the Jews. Human life is more sacred than a piece of paper acceptable to civil leaders who were deceived into thinking they were superior to Jews or other human. Every person matters to God.
The Church teaches that the whole of the Bible, Tradition, and THe Magisterium constitutes the teachings of God, through Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit.
You’ll have to decide for yourself whether it is a lie or not, you have free will. But what you should do, in my opinion, is study the importance of what you do day by day and not judge what others have done.
By the way I believe you meant Pius XII if you are talking about the German Holocaust.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

This is the “Law” as Jesus refers to it in Matthew 23 (usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm ), intent is more important than detail. The commandment of “not bearing false witness” is not the same as refusing to assist in unjust persecution of others. So in the cases cited the intent to provide God’s master plan to Jews and English is the intent while the detail may be interpreted as a violation.

 

[ziggernaut]

I have two similar but slightly different questions -

1. Was it alright for those Catholic Martyrs to enter England just after it became protestant by lying?
2. Was it justified for Pope John XXIII to print baptismal certificates for Jews to save them from the Holocaust?

Both involve lying - but they seem to be for good reasons.

Catholig

"1) Was it alright for those Catholic Martyrs to enter England just after it became protestant by lying?" Oh, no, not illegal immigrants again:whacky: (Sorry, bad joke!)

Seriously, though, both of the cases you mention involve saving lives and souls, which, I think, trumps the “lies” that were used to achieve that.

God Bless,
Jeff

 

[Catholig]

"1) Was it alright for those Catholic Martyrs to enter England just after it became protestant by lying?" Oh, no, not illegal immigrants again:whacky: (Sorry, bad joke!)

Seriously, though, both of the cases you mention involve saving lives and souls, which, I think, trumps the “lies” that were used to achieve that.

God Bless,
Jeff

okay - I felt similar. I just wanted to post this question.

Catholig

 

[Zooey]

I have two similar but slightly different questions -

1. Was it alright for those Catholic Martyrs to enter England just after it became protestant by lying?
2. Was it justified for Pope [Pius] XXII to print baptismal certificates for Jews to save them from the Holocaust?

Both involve lying - but they seem to be for good reasons.

Catholig

If there were any sin involved, I suspect that these brave & good men felt it to be justifiable, none the less.
One might argue, after all, that Christ Himself said, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, & unto God, the things that are God’s.” Surely, the spiritual & physical welfare of people under oppression trumps the unjust demands of immoral rulers??
I say, God bless them all.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1. The priests entering did not lie. They made mental reservations or answered truthfully without going into specifics, i.e. o you support the Queen; answer: I fully support the ruler of England (while omitting to mention one might not find the ruler of England to be that Queen).
2. I do not believe that Pope John XXIII made baptismal certificates for the Jews when he was POPE. As with any person, he may have made a ‘prudential decision’–which may or may not have been lying in the eyes of God. That will be between God and the person, correct? We are obliged to do as much as we can to save life without mortal sin.

Sadly, too many people will take extreme situations of a person ‘lying’ or ‘making certificates’ where they know very little of what the person’s mental reservations or understanding was, still less of how God viewed it, etc. were and take it to mean that, hey, BECAUSE a lie ‘saved a life’, LYING IS JUSTIFIABLE. And that is morally wrong.

I myself do NOT feel that ‘the end justifies the means’. If it came to where one absolutely HAD to answer with a truth that would have resulted in my or others’ deaths, I still could not deny my Lord and God. The fact that the vast majority of those priests met death for exactly those reasonthey would not lie-- pretty much supports Catholic teaching that the end does not justify the means.