Priests refuse to give Holy Communion to people kneeling

[Regina7]

AMEN.

If the custom at the parish is to receive in the and you did not first notify the priest that you wish to receive kneeling, then there appears to be a problem of narcissistic behavior. To those who wish to make a political statement against V2, then please just head over to the SSPX chapel and enjoy making sure that the other worshippers understand that you are at the same level of abuse as those killed for upholding the teachings of Our Lord.

That’s ridiculous. The NORM is on knees on the tongue. Just because that’s not what most do here in the States doesn’t change this. Asking a priest whether you can receive on knees is like asking if you can receive in the hand- BOTH are acceptable.

 

[Reuben_J]

The person who kneels (or stands) is practicing Obedience, is it too much to ask the priest to do the same?

I agree with you on the rest on of your post. …

As for your question, it also can be asked the other way round.

I am afraid obedience is in the other direction.

What I am saying, and especially if you are a visitor to the parish, why make such a statement? Humility and common sense would dictate us just to give in, stand up and receive the Communion standing up. What’s so difficult about it. And more importantly, the mass flows smoothly.

Obviously this priest felt strongly about it, for reason we can only guess at this point. Even if he was wrong, he could decide at that moment to ask the communicants to stand to receive Holy Communion, and everybody receive the way he wanted to.

Then if you do not agree or are not satisfied, confront him at the sacristy or in his office, and tell him you will bring it all the way up to Rome if he does not relent, …

I am speaking for myself ultimately. I would never do what that woman did during Holy Communion.

 

[LongingSoul]

They can frown on it all they want, just as a lay person can frown on having to stand during the Agnus Dei. But in each case, they are called to practice the Virtue of Obedience.

The Virtue of Obedience means that the priest cannot impose his own will over that of the Church. The priest is given, by the Church and virtue of his Office, certain authority in the Mass. This case is not among those. He is not given, and thus has no, authority to determine posture.

When the recipient kneels for Communion, they commit no wrong, they are acting in Obedience to the Church, even if the ‘custom’ of a local parish is to receive standing.

If the priest attempts to impose his will on the recipient in that matter, that is an act of Vice and is unbecoming of any Catholic, let alone a priest.

That’s the problem with fundamentalism. They quote the law and invoke the letter of the law without any consideration for the spirit of the law. It’s anti Christian and anti social.

 

[ProVobis]

What I am saying, and especially if you are a visitor to the parish, why make such a statement? Humility and common sense would dictate us just to give in, stand up and receive the Communion standing up. What’s so difficult about it. And more importantly, the mass flows smoothly.

Whoa there. Are we judging this woman not to be humble? Maybe I’m wrong but let’s give her the benefit of the doubt and say she was acting out of conviction and utmost respect for Christ. Is the flow really more important than that?

 

[Mark121359]

That’s the problem with fundamentalism. They quote the law and invoke the letter of the law without any consideration for the spirit of the law. It’s anti Christian and anti social.

Huh???

Peace, Mark

 

[Reuben_J]

Whoa there. Are we judging this woman not to be humble? Maybe I’m wrong but let’s give her the benefit of the doubt and say she was acting out of conviction and utmost respect for Christ.

Certainly not and we should not (judge). I am sorry if my words give you the impression. I did not mean it that way then.

It was more of a personal opinion in which I think she should not do that - kneeling for a good three minutes, demonstrating a visual confrontation/differences with the celebrant during Holy Communion.

If she did not want to receive it standing, she should just give it a pass and move on instead of standing her ground by kneeling there. I have not seen this kind of thing happened before and I could only visualize it, and I do not think it is right.

If she thought the priest was wrong, what she did would not right it.

ProVobis:

Is the flow really more important than that?

I would say, yes, the Holy Communion is a solemn holy moment. Respect it and the others too.

You may not be able to receive the host kneeling down, but well, it is allowed in receiving it standing up. So let it go. It was not altogether wrong.

Sure we can have the conviction, but consideration must be accorded to the others so as to avoid distraction. I would see it a moment where we should die to the self, not what we want but for the good of the whole congregation. I think Jesus would want us to do that.

 

[InThePew]

In other words, if I had to choose a hill to die on… this one wouldn’t be it.

Love this reply - just truly brilliant!

 

[Brendan]

That’s the problem with fundamentalism. They quote the law and invoke the letter of the law without any consideration for the spirit of the law. It’s anti Christian and anti social.

So when the Church issued the law, what was it’s intent, the spirit?

In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”. Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing

What did the Church desire to accomplish by forbidding priests from doing what this priest did? What is the spirit of the above statement?

Out of the two people being discussed, which one violated the spirit of the law?

In addition, does the Church provide a dicastery to answer questions about what the spirit or intent of a particular law is?

 

[LongingSoul]

So when the Church issued the law, what was it’s intent, the spirit?

When I looked at the Japanese Bishops Conference site there is a document from 12 months ago regarding the issue. From that document we read…

**II. Matters to be Considered in Advance
**
Catechesis concerning Holy Communion

1. Those responsible in parishes and religious communities must teach
   community members, at a suitable time and in a practical way, the meaning of
   Holy Communion and how it should be received. Also catechumens, those of
   separated ecclesial Communities who wish to be members of the Catholic
   church, and children who are preparing to make their first Holy Communion
   must all be taught at a suitable time what they need to know about Holy
   Communion and how it is to be received.

Regarding the posture at the moment of receiving Holy Communion

1. Regarding the posture of communicants the Institutio Generalis Missalis
   Romani states that “the faithful communicate either kneeling or standing, as
   determined by the Conference of Bishops.”2 According to this norm, in Japan,
   depending on the place where the Mass is to be celebrated and except in the
   case of those who are unable to stand for some special reasons, as a general
   rule, Holy Communion is received standing. When the faithful communicate
   with a common posture, as well as showing a sign of the unity among those
   attending Mass,3 it also helps towards a smooth flow of the procession of the
   faithful. However, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s
   faithful solely on the grounds that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist
   kneeling.4

cbcj.catholic.jp/jpn/doc/cbcj/20141130en.pdf

As a Catholic reading that the most pertinent point of catechises is the symbol of unity indicated by the norm, which is what ‘Catholic’ means. Universal. The concession permitting kneeling is not another norm. It is a toleration of what is essentially a break of unity that the norm demonstrates. Pope Benedict had some empathy with some motive for wanting to kneel and addressed that with protection under the law. As with all law… there is the legal and the ethical. That requires the use of conscience on the part of people who invoke the concession. People deserve the right to sue for damages in an accident but to sue for millions for spilling a coffee on yourself in a fast food store… is an exploitation of a law designed as a safety net. To invoke the letter of the law just because it is your right… regardless of the many ethical considerations such as the overall cost to the community and the loss of goodwill between people of reason… is to deny the value of the spirit of the law.

What did the Church desire to accomplish by forbidding priests from doing what this priest did? What is the spirit of the above statement?

Catholics are not immune from exploiting laws as a direct slight against a parish Priest. Hence frustrations sometimes.

Out of the two people being discussed, which one violated the spirit of the law?

It could be either.

In addition, does the Church provide a dicastery to answer questions about what the spirit or intent of a particular law is?

The love of Catholic unity symbolised by the norm should ensure that holy people make prudent choices.

 

[LongingSoul]

Did you read the OP? The problem is not condemning those who receive in the mouth which, as you say, is perfectly acceptable. The problem is the condemnation of those who want to receive kneeling, which is also acceptable.

I bet if the priest refused to allow communion in the hand, people here woukd be a lot more upset.

I bet the majority of people who made a random visit to a traditional parish would kneel as per the norm of that parish. I certainly would show them that respect.

 

[ProVobis]

I have not seen this kind of thing happened before and I could only visualize it, and I do not think it is right.

Except for ewtn I have not seen on-the-spot kneeling for receiving communion. At altar rails, plenty of times. I only hope this woman can find such a venue.

 

[Reuben_J]

Except for ewtn I have not seen on-the-spot kneeling for receiving communion. At altar rails, plenty of times. I only hope this woman can find such a venue.

Thanks for the wit.

This was what the OP narrated.

A week before Christmas one of the priests at our parish church refused to give Holy Communion to a woman who was kneeling. She was the last person in line so was not causing any obstruction to people. She was refused by the priest. He asked her to stand, She refused. Then to my shock he tried to force her to stand by grabbing her arm.

I was serving as Eucharistic minister at hat particular mass. **She continued to refuse to stand. **HE then rushed away from her. **She remained kneeling for a long 3 more minutes or so.
**
It was heart-rending to see her. The priest claimed t was in the rules of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan that people had to stand as he rushed away from her.

But this is not so. The guidelines for Japan clearly say not to refuse anyone who is kneeling.

I have never seen a communicant behaved like that during Holy Communion. And a celebrant too.

 

[E_7]

Personally I think the priest was wrong; he should have given Communion to her if she wanted to receive it kneeling down. But by refusing to stand up when the priest asked her to do so, did not make her right.

I agree.

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree.

Thanks.

 

[naylordaisy]

Rome has made it 100% clear that every Latin Catholic anywhere in the world - in any parish, any diocese and at any mass - always has the right to receive kneeling. The appropriate clarifications from Rome have been posted elsewhere on this thread. At my cathedral in my archdiocese both standing and kneeling are considered norms and as I outlined in my previous post both are accommodated at all masses. When I attend mass in other dioceses / parishes where kneeling is not the norm, I have no issue standing… but it is absolutely, without a doubt wrong for a priest to REFUSE holy communion to someone for adopting a posture that is universally allowed.
The desire to kneel is scoffed at as Pelaganianism… what about physically grabbing the faithful and imposing standing with tyrannical rigidness… how is that OK? Forcing standing, one of two postures allowed by the Church, is the very definition of “over emphasis of formalism”.

No one in this thread condemned the practice of receiving communion while standing. There is also no indication that the individual in the OP’s account condemned this practice. The issue here is an individual was REFUSED Holy Communion for electing a posture that Rome has deemed universally acceptable. Its not only traditionalists who get obsessed over external forms…liturgical “liberals” can be just as obsessed over their pet issues as traditionalists are.

Thank you.
Indeed, I have not condemned the practice of receiving communion while standing. I receive this way myself.
But my message did concern how laity are treated if they choose to kneel.
We are an international parish with people from all over the world coming to our English masses here in Tokyo.
The first incident concerned a Filipino woman who was the very last person to come to receive communion, probably to avoid causing any disruption to the line of people that had been ahead of her.
She knelt down whereby the priest refused her communion. I was an extraordinary minister standing close by and had just finishing distributing communion to the line of
people I was serving.
Thus Filipino woman was very respectful.
When the priest trued to pull her up by grabbing her arm, she remained kneeling and
remained completely calm. The priest then rushed away from her claiming that she was in violation of guidelines from the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan (which actually is not true).

It was really heart-rending to see her remain kneeling. She continued to kneel for the next 3 minutes or so in front of the entire congregation with a forlorn look and her face.
Her behaviour was respectful and there were no theatrics.
This placed me and other extraordinary ministers in a really tough position.
We had to also refuel her because of the priest to avoid scandal.

Later I related the story to another elder priest of our parish church and he said the priest who refused was wrong.

I thought I would never have to deal with another incident such as this again till last Saturday week where my own friend was refused, though this time he stood when another priest, the parish priest asked him to.
My friend even apologised to the parish priest but he also told the PP that he was in error.

What was unpleasant also for me was that the PP spoke disparagingly to me about ‘my friends’ as I was leaving the church. It is really disheartening to witness such
behaviour.

With people from all over the world attending our masses, it seems a more merciful view to giving communion to people should be adopted as there is a good chance people who
wish to kneel will be present.

Pope Francis asks us all to be merciful in this Year of the Jubilee of Mercy.

God Bless

ps. Thank you everyone for your comments whether for or against.
It has been very helpful to be able to share this issue which has been a source of
great upset for me over the past few weeks.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you.
Indeed, I have not condemned the practice of receiving communion while standing. I receive this way myself.
But my message did concern how laity are treated if they choose to kneel.
We are an international parish with people from all over the world coming to our English masses here in Tokyo.
The first incident concerned a Filipino woman who was the very last person to come to receive communion, probably to avoid causing any disruption to the line of people that had been ahead of her.
She knelt down whereby the priest refused her communion. I was an extraordinary minister standing close by and had just finishing distributing communion to the line of
people I was serving.
Thus Filipino woman was very respectful.
When the priest trued to pull her up by grabbing her arm, she remained kneeling and
remained completely calm. The priest then rushed away from her claiming that she was in violation of guidelines from the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan (which actually is not true).

It was really heart-rending to see her remain kneeling. She continued to kneel for the next 3 minutes or so in front of the entire congregation with a forlorn look and her face.
Her behaviour was respectful and there were no theatrics.
This placed me and other extraordinary ministers in a really tough position.
We had to also refuel her because of the priest to avoid scandal.

Later I related the story to another elder priest of our parish church and he said the priest who refused was wrong.

I thought I would never have to deal with another incident such as this again till last Saturday week where my own friend was refused, though this time he stood when another priest, the parish priest asked him to.
My friend even apologised to the parish priest but he also told the PP that he was in error.

What was unpleasant also for me was that the PP spoke disparagingly to me about ‘my friends’ as I was leaving the church. It is really disheartening to witness such
behaviour.

With people from all over the world attending our masses, it seems a more merciful view to giving communion to people should be adopted as there is a good chance people who
wish to kneel will be present.

Pope Francis asks us all to be merciful in this Year of the Jubilee of Mercy.

God Bless

ps. Thank you everyone for your comments whether for or against.
It has been very helpful to be able to share this issue which has been a source of
great upset for me over the past few weeks.

Holy Communion can be received both kneeling and standing. There is no doubt about that. Even in a parish where communicants come to receive them standing, there are those who prefer kneeling and they should not be refused too.

You mentioned about how laity are treated if they choose to kneel. The incident that you mentioned showed that they would be refused Communion, if the woman’s experience was an indicator.

Now, is this the standard response from all the priests in your place or just this particular priest? You seem to indicate that it was the practice in your parish. If it was, then perhaps you all can bring it up to the rector or even the Bishop. What is the stance, so that the incidence would not be repeated?

If it is an all standing Communion, yours being an international parish, simple announcement could be made just before Communion to inform everybody that it is received by standing only so as to ensure compliance.

Then on the personal level, the dispute should not be fought off on the sanctuary of the Holy Communion. That was crazy and sanity should prevail. All things being equal, it is conventional wisdom that the laity should obey the priest in the mass.

Had that been done, then you would not have to witness the heart rending situation where this Filipino woman had to kneel alone in full view of the congregation including inquisitive children, at the sanctuary probably now during post Communion quiet moment.

 

[twf]

When I looked at the Japanese Bishops Conference site there is a document from 12 months ago regarding the issue. From that document we read…

**II. Matters to be Considered in Advance
**
Catechesis concerning Holy Communion

1. Those responsible in parishes and religious communities must teach
   community members, at a suitable time and in a practical way, the meaning of
   Holy Communion and how it should be received. Also catechumens, those of
   separated ecclesial Communities who wish to be members of the Catholic
   church, and children who are preparing to make their first Holy Communion
   must all be taught at a suitable time what they need to know about Holy
   Communion and how it is to be received.

Regarding the posture at the moment of receiving Holy Communion

1. Regarding the posture of communicants the Institutio Generalis Missalis
   Romani states that “the faithful communicate either kneeling or standing, as
   determined by the Conference of Bishops.”2 According to this norm, in Japan,
   depending on the place where the Mass is to be celebrated and except in the
   case of those who are unable to stand for some special reasons, as a general
   rule, Holy Communion is received standing. When the faithful communicate
   with a common posture, as well as showing a sign of the unity among those
   attending Mass,3 it also helps towards a smooth flow of the procession of the
   faithful. However, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s
   faithful solely on the grounds that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist
   kneeling.4

cbcj.catholic.jp/jpn/doc/cbcj/20141130en.pdf

As a Catholic reading that the most pertinent point of catechises is the symbol of unity indicated by the norm, which is what ‘Catholic’ means. Universal. The concession permitting kneeling is not another norm. It is a toleration of what is essentially a break of unity that the norm demonstrates. Pope Benedict had some empathy with some motive for wanting to kneel and addressed that with protection under the law. As with all law… there is the legal and the ethical. That requires the use of conscience on the part of people who invoke the concession. People deserve the right to sue for damages in an accident but to sue for millions for spilling a coffee on yourself in a fast food store… is an exploitation of a law designed as a safety net. To invoke the letter of the law just because it is your right… regardless of the many ethical considerations such as the overall cost to the community and the loss of goodwill between people of reason… is to deny the value of the spirit of the law.

Catholics are not immune from exploiting laws as a direct slight against a parish Priest. Hence frustrations sometimes.

It could be either.

The love of Catholic unity symbolised by the norm should ensure that holy people make prudent choices.

As the OP has explained, the woman in question was a foreign visitor. Not only does she have a right to receive kneeling, but she may not have realized how intent the Japanese bishops are on this visible sign of unity. As I noted in my earlier post, in my cathedral here in Vancouver, Canada, BOTH kneeling at the altar rail and standing are equally viable and equally promoted as norms - you just choose to either go up the centre aisle to receive standing or along either side to receive kneeling at the rail. The Church doesn’t teach that a common posture in this matter is essential to the mass. The local bishops can certainly promote such, but not every Catholic in the world may understand that way of thinking. No one from my Cathedral would.

 

[Reuben_J]

As the OP has explained, the woman in question was a foreign visitor. Not only does she have a right to receive kneeling, but she may not have realized how intent the Japanese bishops are on this visible sign of unity. As I noted in my earlier post, in my cathedral here in Vancouver, Canada, BOTH kneeling at the altar rail and standing are equally viable and equally promoted as norms - you just choose to either go up the centre aisle to receive standing or along either side to receive kneeling at the rail. The Church doesn’t teach that a common posture in this matter is essential to the mass. The local bishops can certainly promote such, but not every Catholic in the world may understand that way of thinking. No one from my Cathedral would.

I think all agreed that the priest should have given her Communion regardless of her posture. There is no argument here.

The fact of the matter is she did not want to get up. The priest even had to pull her arm.

What would you do in that situation? As a Catholic, she must know that if a priest asked her to stand, she had to follow suit. Granted she liked to receive it kneeling down but if in that foreign parish, the priest asked her to stand, then stood she should. What was so difficult about that?

It was not like she did not know, since after all the priest asked her to stand and even pulled her arm. By stubbornly continue to kneel, she was just making a scene and during Holy Communion at that.

The whole thing is not so difficult to understand if one is a Catholic, no matter where one comes from. The principle is the same - one should follow the practice in a parish and the priest is the one who makes the decision.

Here he wants them to stand, so that was it. Every Catholic should understand that. It is not as if standing is wrong/prohibited.

It is not about whether she should insist on kneeling because it is her right but a common sense thing and proper decorum/attitude. More so you are in a foreign country.

 

[Micosil]

Makes me glad I left the Roman Church.

I only go to high church Episcopal parishes where communion is taken kneeling by all, or to EF parishes.

If by EF parishes you mean Extraordinary Form (as in, the Tridentine Mass), you realize those are part of the “Roman Church”, yes? Say, if it’s celebrated by an FSSP priest, who are in full communion with Rome, as opposed to other groups that celebrate the Tridentine Mass but aren’t in communion with Rome.

 

[Brendan]

When I looked at the Japanese Bishops Conference site there is a document from 12 months ago regarding the issue. From that document we read…

Prot. n. 47 / 03 / L

Rome, 26 February 2003

Dear [name deleted],

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received through official channels your letter dated 1 December 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary

It could be either.

In which way did the recipient violate a Church teaching? The priest clearly did

The love of Catholic unity symbolised by the norm should ensure that holy people make prudent choices.

Exactly, which is why the Church provides for us in that manner. The Church has established the Congregation for Divine Worship so that there will be a singular voice in how the norms are to be applied.

See above.