Priests refuse to give Holy Communion to people kneeling

[Brendan]

. Granted she liked to receive it kneeling down but if in that foreign parish, the priest asked her to stand, then stood she should. .

Why?

 

[Phemie]

As a practical matter, however, I’d extend that “command” to allowing kneeling off to the side or altar railings of some kind. Kneeling or genuflecting while people are walking around you can be quite disruptive to the flow, not to mention very prone to many accidents. I can understand why some priests frown on kneeling on the spot, though I don’t agree with it.

I must say that I’ve never been that close to the person receiving in front of me that their decision to kneel would impede traffic. It’s the argument I always hear but having received in dozens of different churches, I’ve never seen it.

 

[Phemie]

Except for ewtn I have not seen on-the-spot kneeling for receiving communion. At altar rails, plenty of times. I only hope this woman can find such a venue.

We have a few people who do so in our parish. I know that when they are away from here they opt for EF Mass if there are any being celebrated within driving distance.

 

[graciew]

Why?

Because we move foward in Procession to become one with Christ and among
each other.
The priest extends an invitation in Persona Christi.
And we sort of disappear in a Procession so deeply as a community that what I prefer , like or whatever individually has no importance in comparison to that unity and love we walk to receive.

And even out of kindness ,Brendan , who knows if at that very moment a priest has a sciatica or a.sudden back pain ?

 Beyond this particular very rare case....

 

[Mark121359]

I must say that I’ve never been that close to the person receiving in front of me that their decision to kneel would impede traffic. It’s the argument I always hear but having received in dozens of different churches, I’ve never seen it.

Nor have I. If you ever watch an EWTN Mass you’ll notice that some people kneel down before receiving, while others don’t. Never, ever have I witnessed any problems or confusion as some like to contend on these boards. I’m of the opinion that some people simply resent seeing someone kneeling down to receive in a parish where it’s not the norm, just the same way some people whine and complain and feel uncomfortable around a woman wearing a mantilla or veil…but I digress.

Peace, Mark

 

[eamonnroma]

Very unfortunate and incorrect. However, the woman could have stood, and thereby avoided all of the fuss

 

[zab]

I have always thought that people should follow the guidelines and to stand for reception of Communion. However, my adult son is one of a growing number of mostly younger people in our parish who are beginning to kneel on the floor to receive Communion. I do know that my son took a while to think and pray about this and even spoke to our pastor about it before he began this posture. He didn’t want to stand out and wanted to be doing it for the right reasons and wanted to know if it was ok. I gave him my opinion, but Father told him if that was what he felt compelled to do then to go ahead. So I have been holding off on my own opinion of this and wondering where it is all going to lead to.

 

[Brendan]

I have always thought that people should follow the guidelines and to stand for reception of Communion. .

The point is, she WAS following the guidelines. It was the priest who did not.

 

[naylordaisy]

You should write to the bishop. When you do so, you should provide evidence that this occurred, if possible, and give exact information on the specific mass and the priest or priests who did this.
Some years ago people were refused communion because they were kneeling in a diocese in Texas. The Vatican learned of this and ordered the bishop to put a stop to it, refusing communion to someone being a serious offense against them. Reports of the Vatican’s response appeared in the media at the time. The Vatican also said that they would follow up later and make sure this abuse had stopped.
I recommend that if your bishop won’t take action, that you write to the Vatican. We aren’t allowed to post people’s addresses here, but the address for Vatican offices should be on the web. Your diocese also should have a webpage identifying a mailing address to use to write the bishop.
I would understand if you didn’t write. If I had seen this myself, however, I would have acted by writing.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[Brendan]

Because we move foward in Procession to become one with Christ and among
each other.
The priest extends an invitation in Persona Christi.
And we sort of disappear in a Procession so deeply as a community that what I prefer , like or whatever individually has no importance in comparison to that unity and love we walk to receive.

And even out of kindness ,Brendan , who knows if at that very moment a priest has a sciatica or a.sudden back pain ?

 Beyond this particular very rare case....

The procession is moving forward exactly as the Church intents, with the recipient choosing if they wish to stand or to kneel.

The invitation that the priest extents includes, by definition, those who wish to kneel to receive.

You might, as you state, prefer that everyone comply with your view on how the procession proceed, but they are under no obligation for them to do so.

 

[naylordaisy]

Holy Communion can be received both kneeling and standing. There is no doubt about that. Even in a parish where communicants come to receive them standing, there are those who prefer kneeling and they should not be refused too.

You mentioned about how laity are treated if they choose to kneel. The incident that you mentioned showed that they would be refused Communion, if the woman’s experience was an indicator.

Now, is this the standard response from all the priests in your place or just this particular priest? You seem to indicate that it was the practice in your parish. If it was, then perhaps you all can bring it up to the rector or even the Bishop. What is the stance, so that the incidence would not be repeated?

If it is an all standing Communion, yours being an international parish, simple announcement could be made just before Communion to inform everybody that it is received by standing only so as to ensure compliance.

Then on the personal level, the dispute should not be fought off on the sanctuary of the Holy Communion. That was crazy and sanity should prevail. All things being equal, it is conventional wisdom that the laity should obey the priest in the mass.

Had that been done, then you would not have to witness the heart rending situation where this Filipino woman had to kneel alone in full view of the congregation including inquisitive children, at the sanctuary probably now during post Communion quiet moment.

Again, thank you and indeed to one and all for taking the time to write.

We have three native English speaking priests and a visiting priest who serve our parish.
All are from the USA.
The parish priest and the visiting priest are the priests who refuse to give communicants
communion if they are kneeling. Over the past two years or more they have been conditioning the congregation to receive communion by the nad. But they have explained this in such a way that for most people they believed this to be a new rule from
either Rome or the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan. Most people here just assume these priests are telling them to follow what the Church is teaching.

However some of the parishioners started to check the official documents which are available on the Internet and realised that what they were being told did not march the
actual statements for the reception of communion
Because it is so rare to see anyone kneeling, well it is for me, the issue never arose while I was at mass.
But I did meet some parishioners who told me that they avoid these priests when it comes to receiving communion especially when we have mass in the tiny chapel near the main chapel.
But the other two priests who have been serving God in Japan for nearly sixty years and are both in their 80s will always give communion to people whether standing or kneeling. It has never been an issue with them.
One of them I spoke to after the incident with the woman, told me that the visiting priest was wrong. The visiting priest is based in Thailand but often serves at our church.
I also explained the situation to the person who manages the monthly schedule assignments for the extraordinary ministers of the holy communion and he was upset.
To be honest he has been not very happy with the way certain things are being done at
mass by the PP and the visiting priest.
The problem is the EMHC manager is too afraid to confront the parish priest about these
incidents and other incidents because he believes the PP will end his role as the EMHC
manager and so he is afraid that then more abuse may occur.

Finally, after the second incident, with my friend (from the UK but is living in South Korea) who was refused communion by the PP two weeks ago, I persuaded the
EMHC manager to at least send the guidelines to our PP when he next sends out the monthly schedule. Till now the EMHC manager had been exhorting the extraordinary ministers to follow Church guidelines via his monthly email schedules but the PP was not receiving the email. This created the situation where potentially an EMHC would one day give communion to a communicant which would anger the PP if he saw it.
The PP would have received the EMHC email last week but he has not responded.
I asked for clarification in the email thread but there has been no response.

One additional note. regarding my friend from the UK, I did not see this at the time as I was sitting in a different area of the pews and was in prayer after receiving communion myself that day.
After mass though, the PP rudely complained to me about my friend as I was leaving the
exit door of the church entrance. I had no idea what he was talking about till my friend
who was waiting for me came over to us and then he and the PP argued the point (not in
loud voices though).
The PP maintained he was legally correct to refuse communion. My friend in the mass actually did stand up when the PP asked him to and even apologised to the PP for kneeling as the two were arguing the point outside. But my friend pointed out that the
PP was in error for refusing him initially.
I was silent while this discussion was going on.
Finally my friend departed but the PP told him never to come back to our church.
My friend said he would send him the relevant church guidelines through me to him via email but the PP said not to bother and expressed told me not to send him any documents.
What this means it that we cannot have any discussion with him on this topic.
Sorry I know this is a long email.

Once again thank you and to all.
God Bless
Neil

 

[zab]

The point is, she WAS following the guidelines. It was the priest who did not.

Actually, the point of my post is that I was saying that I have always thought that we should follow the posture that has been set for us. And then I told about my son and his struggle with what he should do… and so I decided to hold off on my own opinion on this for a while.

 

[PJM]

Hello,
Can anyone please advise me on this issue.
A week before Christmas one of the priests at our parish church refused to give Holy Communion to a woman who was kneeling. She was the last person in line so was not causing any obstruction to people. She was refused by the priest. He asked her to stand, She refused. Then to my shock he tried to force her to stand by grabbing her arm.
I was serving as Eucharistic minister at hat particular mass. She continued to refuse to stand. HE then rushed away from her. She remained kneeling for a long 3 more minutes or so.
It was heart-rending to see her. The priest claimed t was in the rules of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan that people had to stand as he rushed away from her.
But this is not so. The guidelines for Japan clearly say not to refuse anyone who is kneeling.

Then last Saturday week my English friend visiting Japan from South Korea came to mass at our parish church and he was refused the Holy Communion because he was kneeling. In this case it was our parish priest. However my friend decide to stand when requested by the priest.

But when I was leaving the church this parish priest essentially admonished me for my friend’s kneeling behaviour and with that my friend came over to us and told the priest that he was in error about kneeling. The priest said he was not. In the short exchange, the priest went on to tel my friend never to come back to our church even as my friend was being polite but firm with him in this exchange. My friend turned away and the this priest spoke disparagingly to me about my friend. He also made clear in the exchange that he did not want to receive any emails from me nor my friend that would show he was in error. I finally spoke and defended my friend as being an honourable person and that in fact the priest was in error.
In all of this this priest was very rude.

Both of these experiences have left me with a feeling of shock and frankly disgust.
The priests are from America as we are an international Catholic Church.

There have been other issues too including heterdoxical teachings.

But right now, the immediate reason I write this message is to ask for advice from anyone about what to do.
I know Canon Law says contact our local bishop who is Japanese but what if the bishop here does not take any action?

Another question is has anyone ever had such an experience with priests who behave like this?
I am still trying to come to terms with their behaviour.
Am I wring to believe that they are in error, that their behaviour seems mist un-Christ-like and all this in the Jubilee Year of Mercy?

God Bless
Neil

CONTACT YOUR BISHOP

This is a violation of Church Law

Be

Specific
Brief
factual
Charitable

CC the priest

 

[robertmidwest]

My wife and I had to attend Holy Mass at a different parish this past Sunday - our first time at this particular parish, in fact.

The parish we regularly attend only offers the Novus Ordo; but it is rather traditional and conservative in its culture. We, and many others at our parish, receive the Holy Eucharist on the tongue (I also genuflect before hand - not convinced that a mere bow is sufficient).

Anyways, when I went up to receive the Eucharist, the Eucharistic Minister had a look on her that almost made me laugh when I put my tongue out and not my hands. I am willing to bet that we were the only two at Mass that received the Eucharist that way.

The look on her face was priceless, but after a slight hesitation and realizing that I was not going to put my hand out, she placed the Eucharist on my tongue.

The joy of putting someone on the spot and making them uncomfortable really makes me questions the true motivation here.

 

[LongingSoul]

As the OP has explained, the woman in question was a foreign visitor. Not only does she have a right to receive kneeling, but she may not have realized how intent the Japanese bishops are on this visible sign of unity. As I noted in my earlier post, in my cathedral here in Vancouver, Canada, BOTH kneeling at the altar rail and standing are equally viable and equally promoted as norms - you just choose to either go up the centre aisle to receive standing or along either side to receive kneeling at the rail. The Church doesn’t teach that a common posture in this matter is essential to the mass. The local bishops can certainly promote such, but not every Catholic in the world may understand that way of thinking. No one from my Cathedral would.

All that is perfectly fine. The issue begins when the Priest quietly asks her to stand… and she chooses a position of defiant protest essentially. In the moment and the setting of Mass; the commemoration of the docile and humble acceptance of an unfair judgement upon Him, Jesus demonstrates a personal disposition most pleasing to the Father. St Mary MacKillop acquiesced to an unfair order of excommunication pronounced upon her with the attitude that God was testing her humility and obedience. We all know the position of ‘protest’ belongs to another denomination.

 

[Reuben_J]

Again, thank you and indeed to one and all for taking the time to write.

We have three native English speaking priests and a visiting priest who serve our parish.
All are from the USA.
The parish priest and the visiting priest are the priests who refuse to give communicants
communion if they are kneeling. Over the past two years or more they have been conditioning the congregation to receive communion by the nad. But they have explained this in such a way that for most people they believed this to be a new rule from
either Rome or the Catholic Bishops Conference of Japan. Most people here just assume these priests are telling them to follow what the Church is teaching.

However some of the parishioners started to check the official documents which are available on the Internet and realised that what they were being told did not march the
actual statements for the reception of communion
Because it is so rare to see anyone kneeling, well it is for me, the issue never arose while I was at mass.
But I did meet some parishioners who told me that they avoid these priests when it comes to receiving communion especially when we have mass in the tiny chapel near the main chapel.
But the other two priests who have been serving God in Japan for nearly sixty years and are both in their 80s will always give communion to people whether standing or kneeling. It has never been an issue with them.
One of them I spoke to after the incident with the woman, told me that the visiting priest was wrong. The visiting priest is based in Thailand but often serves at our church.
I also explained the situation to the person who manages the monthly schedule assignments for the extraordinary ministers of the holy communion and he was upset.
To be honest he has been not very happy with the way certain things are being done at
mass by the PP and the visiting priest.
The problem is the EMHC manager is too afraid to confront the parish priest about these
incidents and other incidents because he believes the PP will end his role as the EMHC
manager and so he is afraid that then more abuse may occur.

Finally, after the second incident, with my friend (from the UK but is living in South Korea) who was refused communion by the PP two weeks ago, I persuaded the
EMHC manager to at least send the guidelines to our PP when he next sends out the monthly schedule. Till now the EMHC manager had been exhorting the extraordinary ministers to follow Church guidelines via his monthly email schedules but the PP was not receiving the email. This created the situation where potentially an EMHC would one day give communion to a communicant which would anger the PP if he saw it.
The PP would have received the EMHC email last week but he has not responded.
I asked for clarification in the email thread but there has been no response.

One additional note. regarding my friend from the UK, I did not see this at the time as I was sitting in a different area of the pews and was in prayer after receiving communion myself that day.
After mass though, the PP rudely complained to me about my friend as I was leaving the
exit door of the church entrance. I had no idea what he was talking about till my friend
who was waiting for me came over to us and then he and the PP argued the point (not in
loud voices though).
The PP maintained he was legally correct to refuse communion. My friend in the mass actually did stand up when the PP asked him to and even apologised to the PP for kneeling as the two were arguing the point outside. But my friend pointed out that the
PP was in error for refusing him initially.
I was silent while this discussion was going on.
Finally my friend departed but the PP told him never to come back to our church.
My friend said he would send him the relevant church guidelines through me to him via email but the PP said not to bother and expressed told me not to send him any documents.
What this means it that we cannot have any discussion with him on this topic.
Sorry I know this is a long email.

Once again thank you and to all.
God Bless
Neil

Thanks for the clarification. I would take it as a parish decision, the priest concerned is the parish priest (the other being a visiting priest). Refusing a communicant Communion is an anomaly which your friend rightly pointed out .

The way I see it is more on the personality of the priests and this type of problem is not easily resolved especially in a parish like yours where perhaps it is not too big and personality often plays a big part. You are right not to go against the parish priest , if not for anything but at least to avoid an open conflict, a result which would be to everyone’s disadvantage.

Is it possible to hold a dialogue with the parish priest? Though I feel it would not achieve anything. It seems he is digging his feet in but there’s no harm in trying. Short of that the pragmatic thing to do would make it known to the congregation that Communion is by standing only.

I mentioned earlier that announcement to that effect could be made before the Communion though this is not done normally but at least to avoid the same incident to happen again.

It is not likely as a priest that he did not know it is wrong to refuse giving Communion to those who want to receive it kneeling. His rationale is more on his personal preference and thinking that it is within his decision to make in the parish.

I would see a long way ahead if you expect changes from this priest.

God bless you too.

Reuben

 

[sweetcharity]

I think the unanswered question here is, what is the objection from this particular priest? He may have a valid objection.

We have one old man at our church that always kneels. To be honest, he is making a spectacle of himself. He gets down on his knees and then struggles to get up. I sit in the balcony so I have a clear view of him struggling to get up. I usually look away. One day he is not going to be able to get up.

The reason I question him doing this is that I was always told that you should not do anything at mass to bring attention to yourself. This is why when I go to a church in which the congregation stands during communion, then I stand, even though at my church we kneel during communion.

 

[Little_Sheep]

As an Episcopalian of 49 years, I have only ever received the body and blood of Christ while kneeling. (Upon further reflection, maybe, once or twice in camp or retreat-like settings, I stood, but honestly, kneeling is the general posture in my church).

So naturally I have a difficult time understanding why a priest would have an issue with said posture.

Still, priests have so much on them (body, mind and soul). I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Or from my Canon Lawyer. My understanding is that the diocesan Tribunal in fact exists for more than just marriage cases, and is empowered as an ecclesiastical court to hear matters involving the violation of Canon Law. Perhaps an action against him in the Tribunal would get the priest’s attention - and I’d lead off with the assault charge.

An assault charge seems a bit harsh as a lead.

As the OP has explained, the woman in question was a foreign visitor. Not only does she have a right to receive kneeling, but she may not have realized how intent the Japanese bishops are on this visible sign of unity. As I noted in my earlier post, in my cathedral here in Vancouver, Canada, BOTH kneeling at the altar rail and standing are equally viable and equally promoted as norms - you just choose to either go up the centre aisle to receive standing or along either side to receive kneeling at the rail. The Church doesn’t teach that a common posture in this matter is essential to the mass. The local bishops can certainly promote such, but not every Catholic in the world may understand that way of thinking. No one from my Cathedral would.

See the previous posting, while the Japanese bishops appear to strongly prefer standing they do explicitly recognise the right to receive kneeling

 

[naylordaisy]

Thanks for the clarification. I would take it as a parish decision, the priest concerned is the parish priest (the other being a visiting priest). Refusing a communicant Communion is an anomaly which your friend rightly pointed out .

The way I see it is more on the personality of the priests and this type of problem is not easily resolved especially in a parish like yours where perhaps it is not too big and personality often plays a big part. You are right not to go against the parish priest , if not for anything but at least to avoid an open conflict, a result which would be to everyone’s disadvantage.

Is it possible to hold a dialogue with the parish priest? Though I feel it would not achieve anything. It seems he is digging his feet in but there’s no harm in trying. Short of that the pragmatic thing to do would make it known to the congregation that Communion is by standing only.

I mentioned earlier that announcement to that effect could be made before the Communion though this is not done normally but at least to avoid the same incident to happen again.

It is not likely as a priest that he did not know it is wrong to refuse giving Communion to those who want to receive it kneeling. His rationale is more on his personal preference and thinking that it is within his decision to make in the parish.

I would see a long way ahead if you expect changes from this priest.

God bless you too.

Reuben

Once again Reuben, thank you.

Your summary is exactly the situation we have here. It is indeed a personality issue.
People are too afraid to confront the parish priest even if there are things being done which they feel are wrong. There are two sides. Those who support him and those who are too fearful to raise the issue and who remain silent. Those who have tried to confront him, find no compromise is possible, have left our congregation and moved on to other parishes.

I guess this situation will remain thus for the near future.

Talking a little more philosophically about the issue of trying to receive communion by kneeling, and being refused, this would seem to put the communicant on the same level as those people who cannot receive communion because they are divorced or because they support abortion.
It just seems rather ironic to me that in this situation ‘kneelers’ could be treated as though they were say supporters of abortion.
Just thinking aloud here.

I have been trying to gain a deeper knowledge of our faith to help defend the Church.
I had thought the battlegrounds would be with atheists but never expected that
I would be writing a difficult situation here with a Catholic priest.

Anyway, I am grateful to have had a chance to air this experience and to have had
fresh ideas and (name removed by moderator)ut as to how to go forward.

Many thanks and God Bless
Neil