Priests tell jokes in homilies, incite laughter, clapping, vs. reverence

[Tantum_ergo]

Our parish schola (of which I am a part) received spontaneous applause for our chanting after the Mass had concluded this past Sunday morning. By the standards of this thread, we’re all dirty heretics because the congregation decided to let us know they appreciated our singing.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

No, you have it wrong. You are not dirty heretics. Neither are those who clapped for you.

Note you said they clapped AFTER THE MASS.

What people are objecting to is clapping DURING the Mass, and even there, they are not calling those who clap "Dirty heretics’ (I wish that people would actually address the real argument instead of trying to do a strawman). . .

So IF people had ‘shown their appreciation’ by clapping for you DURING the Mass, the proper reaction would be for your priest to, very gently, discuss at the NEXT Mass, and possibly put in the bulletin, that the proper time and place to show appreciation, especially by clapping, is AFTER MASS.

Which is what you said HAPPENED ANYWAY.

No harm, no foul.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, there should be some limit to how laughter and clapping is encouraged, but I think it is just as wrong to say a person should never laugh or clap at Mass. And that is the topic of this thread.

But the point is that like anything else, there are appropriate ways and means and actions AND TIMES.

And when it comes to laughter and clapping AT MASS, this is something that should be rather rare. Mass is so much more than a community banquet or celebration. We need to maintain proper balance.

Applause is always directed not at God but at humans (the choir’s singing, the decorations, the ‘effort put in’ by whoosiwhatsis’)

And laughter again is a valuable TOOL but it is not something we should be aiming for as an ‘end result’. For Father to have us laugh before presenting a truth that the laughter either enhances our understanding of, or enables us to see, is one thing. For "Father McJokey’ to spend virtually any Mass doing a stand up comic act to show how ‘cool, hip, etc’ he is or to be known as “Father is SO amusing, I LOVE to come to Mass to be entertained by him”. . .is not enhancing the MASS, it’s enhancing FATHER.

 

[floresco]

I can understand that and your humility and sincerity in service for God is commendable. But there is still a place for recognition in a human culture provided it is given in a sincere way too. Though not always but often times a parish priest would try to raise up a choir from very ordinary people, I knew some of them, and they tried their best and could come up with a very good choir group.

An acknowledgement from the priest or perhaps the congregation is to show appreciation for fellow believers for the service and effort. But also when something good is being acknowledged, it is to tell people too that good work for the Lord is recognized and that everybody should endeavour to do the same. It could be in terms of giving, tithing, love or other services for the church. So it is not just for the choir but also an example to be followed for the congregation as a whole. Sometimes the church can give teaching in an indirect way by encouragement.

I think that applauding for the choir encourages the congregation to think of the music in terms of human performance and recognition. I certainly would not tell anyone the amount of money I donate to the church in order to be recognized for it. We give in secret. Older churches have a choir loft in the back such that it is somewhat possible to sing without recognition. That is the ideal.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Our parish schola (of which I am a part) received spontaneous applause for our chanting after the Mass had concluded this past Sunday morning. By the standards of this thread, we’re all dirty heretics because the congregation decided to let us know they appreciated our singing.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I would suppose the reason they applauded your chant, could be , I am not sure I was not there, was because it was chant and there is a big desire and love for more chant today? You still would not be a heretic even if they applauded every time you chanted but it would not be desirable. You still would not be a heretic by any means but you might want to ask the priest to have them not applaud but keep their focus on Jesus. Chant is beautiful. I bet it sounded great.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Thanks Elizium23

There was a time when Catholics would accept the words of their pope and not argue otherwise.

Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
Benedict XVI

Pretty simple isn’t it ?

 

[zab]

But the point is that like anything else, there are appropriate ways and means and actions AND TIMES.

And when it comes to laughter and clapping AT MASS, this is something that should be rather rare. Mass is so much more than a community banquet or celebration. We need to maintain proper balance.

Applause is always directed not at God but at humans (the choir’s singing, the decorations, the ‘effort put in’ by whoosiwhatsis’)

And laughter again is a valuable TOOL but it is not something we should be aiming for as an ‘end result’. For Father to have us laugh before presenting a truth that the laughter either enhances our understanding of, or enables us to see, is one thing. For "Father McJokey’ to spend virtually any Mass doing a stand up comic act to show how ‘cool, hip, etc’ he is or to be known as “Father is SO amusing, I LOVE to come to Mass to be entertained by him”. . .is not enhancing the MASS, it’s enhancing FATHER.

Yes, but…there is a difference between never and appropriate ways and means and actions and times

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think that applauding for the choir encourages the congregation to think of the music in terms of human performance and recognition. I certainly would not tell anyone the amount of money I donate to the church in order to be recognized for it. We give in secret. Older churches have a choir loft in the back such that it is somewhat possible to sing without recognition. That is the ideal.

This! We are in Mass to glorify God(that goes for the choir as well) not the choir! In fact someone a ways back posted a quote from Pope Benedict,essentially saying that when the congregation breaks out in applause for a human accomplishment,then it would seem they have lost the meaning of the liturgy/(this is not verbatim,just the gist)

 

[JustaServant]

I think that applauding for the choir encourages the congregation to think of the music in terms of human performance and recognition. I certainly would not tell anyone the amount of money I donate to the church in order to be recognized for it. We give in secret. Older churches have a choir loft in the back such that it is somewhat possible to sing without recognition. That is the ideal.

No.
Applauding simply acknowledges thier effort. Are you implying that God does not reward those who use thier gifts for His Glory? A simple act, only taking a moment in time to show appreciation for thier work? You would begrudge that?
God is not a legalistic God who must have every “T” crossed, and every “i” dotted.
That turns humans into robots with no relationship to the Almighty at all.
The very thing fundamentalist Christians accuse Catholics of.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Sacred Silence .

GIRM 45 :
Silence

1. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated
   times. Its nature, however, depends on the moment when it occurs in the different
   parts of the celebration. For in the Penitential Act and again after the invitation to pray,
   individuals recollect themselves; whereas after a reading or after the Homily, all meditate
   briefly on what they have heard; then after Communion, they praise God in their hearts
   and pray to him.

Even before the celebration itself, it is a praiseworthy practice for silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred celebration in a devout and fitting manner.

Here’s an excerpt from vatican.va - OFFICE FOR THE LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF ,Periods of Silence within the Eucharistic Celebration

In part of it, they’re quoting (you guessed it) Cardinal Ratzinger’s *Spirit of the Liturgy *again. . . go figure.

Here we can recall a text of the then-theologian and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:

We are realizing more and more clearly that silence is part of the liturgy. We respond, by singing and praying, to the God who addresses us, but the greater mystery, surpassing all words, summons us to silence. It must, of course, be a silence with content, not just the absence of speech and action. We should expect the liturgy to give us a positive stillness that will restore us.

 

[PRmerger]

Really? King David was truly in the presence of the Divine when he scandalised the stuffy by dancing half naked before the Ark. And he was anything but silent. His psalms constantly exhort us to worship The Lord as joyfully as possible - with singing, dancing and every manner of noisy musical instrument. There is no hint that these things are only to be employed outside of formal worship either.

This was a man uniquely labelled by God as being one after God’s own heart - so David had a sense of the numinous and of what was due to God if anyone did.

So much so that God aimed His displeasure at David’s chief critic among the stuffies - his wife Michal - rather than David.

My objection isn’t necessarily towards a lack of silence, but rather to a lack of awareness of the Numinous.

While I can’t prove it, I think King David was acutely aware of the Presence of God, before which he danced.

I just wish we all (myself included) could be more conscious of this while in the presence of the Divine Word in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

 

[floresco]

No.
Applauding simply acknowledges thier effort. Are you implying that God does not reward those who use thier gifts for His Glory? A simple act, only taking a moment in time to show appreciation for thier work? You would begrudge that?
God is not a legalistic God who must have every “T” crossed, and every “i” dotted.
That turns humans into robots with no relationship to the Almighty at all.
The very thing fundamentalist Christians accuse Catholics of.

I’m not sure what you think this has to do with legalism. I have a relationship with God. That is why I want to offer him my singing as a pure gift of love, not have it be for human recognition.

Our Lord told us “**“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”
**(Matt 6:1) Do you begrudge people their reward in heaven?

 

[JustaServant]

I’m not sure what you think this has to do with legalism. I have a relationship with God. That is why I want to offer him my singing as a pure gift of love, not have it be for human recognition.

Our Lord told us “**“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”
**(Matt 6:1) Do you begrudge people their reward in heaven?

Well, first of all you are taking that verse out of context. Christ was speaking of the Pharisees who were doing rightousness FOR the notice of men.
Are saying that if we applaud a choir they will be like the Pharisees and only do it for the public reward?
And…are you saying applauding a choir will lose thier reward?

 

[LilyM]

My objection isn’t necessarily towards a lack of silence, but rather to a lack of awareness of the Numinous.

While I can’t prove it, I think King David was acutely aware of the Presence of God, before which he danced.

I just wish we all (myself included) could be more conscious of this while in the presence of the Divine Word in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

My point is that Michal was almost certainly scandalised by David’s behaviour because she thought it betrayed a lack of his sense of the presence of God - ie that David was being irreverent - when God made clear that the exact contrary was true.

The moral is that we need to be very cautious about judging certain behaviours as being irreverent and still more so about judging the state of mind (or soul) of people merely because they behave in a certain way.

 

[JustaServant]

So if I applaud every time a person sings, then their reward is stolen from them? Where in Scripture does it saw we can steal someone’s reward?
Sooooo if I constantly compliment a persons good work, then I can continually steal thier reward in Heaven…

 

[floresco]

Well, first of all you are taking that verse out of context. Christ was speaking of the Pharisees who were doing rightousness FOR the notice of men.
Are saying that if we applaud a choir they will be like the Pharisees and only do it for the public reward?
And…are you saying applauding a choir will lose thier reward?

Applauding for the choir tempts them to focus on human recognition and to perform for people. They will not necessarily succumb to the temptation but you are making their spiritual path harder.

 

[PRmerger]

My point is that Michal was almost certainly scandalised by David’s behaviour because she thought it betrayed a lack of his sense of the presence of God - ie that David was being irreverent - when God made clear that the exact contrary was true.

The moral is that we need to be very cautious about judging certain behaviours as being irreverent and still more so about judging the state of mind (or soul) of people merely because they behave in a certain way.

There’s nothing here that I disagree with.

I would just give this caveat: there are, of course, certain behaviors that we can clearly judge as irreverent.

Whether clapping for the choir, a celebrant making jokes during the Divine Liturgy, are attempts at grandstanding and narcissism is open to debate.

 

[floresco]

So if I applaud every time a person sings, then their reward is stolen from them? Where in Scripture does it saw we can steal someone’s reward?
Sooooo if I constantly compliment a persons good work, then I can continually steal thier reward in Heaven…

If you applaud and compliment people too much, they can come to see that as the main purpose of their singing or good work. This interferes with them doing things out of love of God and stunts their spiritual development.

 

[JustaServant]

Applauding for the choir tempts them to focus on human recognition and to perform for people. They will not necessarily succumb to the temptation but you are making their spiritual path harder.

So you are saying the use of proper manners like saying thank you, expressing gratitude, or tipping a waitress, tempts people to sin?
Thats sounds like a pretty mannerless society.
Expressing appreciation is sinful?

 

[JustaServant]

If you applaud and compliment people too much, they can come to see that as the main purpose of their singing or good work. This interferes with them doing things out of love of God and stunts their spiritual development.

See above…

 

[floresco]

So you are saying the use of proper manners like saying thank you, expressing gratitude, or tipping a waitress, tempts people to sin?
Thats sounds like a pretty mannerless society.
Expressing appreciation is sinful?

No I am not saying that. Misrepresenting another’s position as you are doing here is a logical fallacy known as a “straw man argument”.