Priests who switch denominations

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A priest is a priest for life because the Sacrament of Holy Orders leaves an indelible mark on one’s soul which is permanent.
 
SyroMalankara said:
That second link looks phony, I tried searching this gentleman and nothing comes up showing proof of his supposed Catholic priesthood other than his saying so, and no original name on any site. Strange.
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Check a bit more and you will find it is true.
 
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Tomdstone said:
I think it is all right to take into account human frailty and not to pass judgment on others. If a priest is put into a situation where he observes scandals which are not being addressed properly, he may come to believe that celibacy is not for him any longer. The first Pope, St. Peter, was married so celibacy is not an ironclad and unchangeable rule of the Roman Catholic Church.
What if a priest wants to marry, but still remain a priest. What should he do in such a case?
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I was wondering when this would circle back to other scandals. That is the heart of the issue. People judge others as not being able to be celibate because they cannot picture being celibate themselves. But is this not closed minded? Why are we so suspicious and cynical of such devotion to God? If you believe in God, do you not believe that a sincere call from God to one of His servants would not include the strength to serve?

The question of Peter’s marriage has been addressed many times. He had a mother in law but no bride. The best guess of biblical scholars is that he was a widower. Not uncommon in those times.

As far as celibacy for the kingdom, I believe the biblical passages have already been provided. If not, I’d be happy to look them up for you. Or, a quick search on CA should turn them up.

Beyond that, statistics show the rate of sexual immorality among priests is exceedingly low compared to the general population. In addition, these same statistics show school teachers have an exceedingly high rate of sexual immorality, specifically pedophilia. By your logic, what should we do? Require celibacy of teachers? Or, find ways that they can satisfy their lust outside of school to lower the chances of them preying on students? Is either answer logical? Despite the fact that children are abused far more often by teachers, do you look suspiciously at every teacher you meet? No, of course not! The vast majority of teachers are wonderful people who work for little pay in a very hard job. They deserve our gratefulness. But, wait, you’re still suspicious of priests. Why is that? That dang celibacy thing that you couldn’t imagine doing gets in the way of the fact that the vadt majority of priests serve God honorably. Who is being judgmental?

You must face the fact that some choose to serve God and serve Him in celibacy. It is really none of your business. It is between them and God. If they find the constraints too much, then what are their options? Some opt away from God, which is a terible loss to their own souls. Some opt for something close to the original Church. As humans, we wonder a bit at their motives, especially when scandal is involved, but in the end, it is between them and God. Regardless, the vast majority do NOT find the constraints to be too much and their reward in heaven is no doubt worthy of their devotion on earth.

Here is a good article from CA regarding the assumption that celibacy is somehow the problem. It seems that we focus so much on the very, very few who screwed up while forgetting how many priests and nuns serve today as the best examples of what we sinful creatures are capable of.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/celibacy-isn’t-the-problem
 
lutheran_farmer said:
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I was wondering when this would circle back to other scandals. That is the heart of the issue. People judge others as not being able to be celibate because they cannot picture being celibate themselves. But is this not closed minded? Why are we so suspicious and cynical of such devotion to God? If you believe in God, do you not believe that a sincere call from God to one of His servants would not include the strength to serve?

The question of Peter’s marriage has been addressed many times. He had a mother in law but no bride. The best guess of biblical scholars is that he was a widower. Not uncommon in those times.

As far as celibacy for the kingdom, I believe the biblical passages have already been provided. If not, I’d be happy to look them up for you. Or, a quick search on CA should turn them up.

Beyond that, statistics show the rate of sexual immorality among priests is exceedingly low compared to the general population. In addition, these same statistics show school teachers have an exceedingly high rate of sexual immorality, specifically pedophilia. By your logic, what should we do? Require celibacy of teachers? Or, find ways that they can satisfy their lust outside of school to lower the chances of them preying on students? Is either answer logical? Despite the fact that children are abused far more often by teachers, do you look suspiciously at every teacher you meet? No, of course not! The vast majority of teachers are wonderful people who work for little pay in a very hard job. They deserve our gratefulness. But, wait, you’re still suspicious of priests. Why is that? That dang celibacy thing that you couldn’t imagine doing gets in the way of the fact that the vadt majority of priests serve God honorably. Who is being judgmental?

You must face the fact that some choose to serve God and serve Him in celibacy. It is really none of your business. It is between them and God. If they find the constraints too much, then what are their options? Some opt away from God, which is a terible loss to their own souls. Some opt for something close to the original Church. As humans, we wonder a bit at their motives, especially when scandal is involved, but in the end, it is between them and God. Regardless, the vast majority do NOT find the constraints to be too much and their reward in heaven is no doubt worthy of their devotion on earth.

Here is a good article from CA regarding the assumption that celibacy is somehow the problem. It seems that we focus so much on the very, very few who screwed up while forgetting how many priests and nuns serve today as the best examples of what we sinful creatures are capable of.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/celibacy-isn’t-the-problem
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The Catholic priest is “another Christ” and as such is held to a higher standard than your run of the mill teacher.
 
Thank you. As a general rule, I do not go to Muslim websites, but I’m sure his story is interesting (and sad from my point of view).

That is one individual priest’s unfortunate path. He needs prayers. I do hope fear did not drive his decision.
 
lutheran_farmer said:
I do hope fear did not drive his decision.
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People may convert for a variety of reasons. For example, if they have Islamic family ties in an Arab country, they may see it as a cultural issue rather than a religious one. Alternately, Islam could be looked upon as an offshoot of Arianism. There are today Arian strains in some Protestant denominations, including in the Anglican Church. The writings of Bishop John Spong of the Anglican Church come to mind as an example of Arianism as understood in today’s world. Perhaps one of the most active Arian groups is the Jehovah’s Witnesses who see Jesus as the human Prince of Peace and the human Messiah, but not divine. Of course, Islam is a lot different from Christian Arianism, but what they have in common is the belief that Jesus was a human Messiah and not divine.
 
Arian strains in the Anglican church? Do you mean Anglicans that don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God? I though Anglicans were firmly trinitarian?
 
lutheran_farmer said:
Arian strains in the Anglican church? Do you mean Anglicans that don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God? I though Anglicans were firmly trinitarian?
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Anglicans are officially Trinitarian. I was speaking of Anglican voices, dissenting from the official and traditional Anglican teachings. Have you heard of Bishop John Shelby Spong, whose books have sold more than a million copies and who was bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark for 24 years? AFAIK, the Episcopal Church is part of the worldwide Anglican communion?
 
Tomdstone said:
Anglicans are officially Trinitarian. I was speaking of Anglican voices, dissenting from the official and traditional Anglican teachings. Have you heard of Bishop John Shelby Spong, whose books have sold more than a million copies and who was bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark for 24 years? AFAIK, the Episcopal Church is part of the worldwide Anglican communion?
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The Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican Communion yes. And the range of what Anglicans believe is wide indeed. Motley crew, the Anglicans; motley, the Episcopalians. But, in the main, Trinitarian.

GKC
 
Tawfig is an Arabic name. Does anyone know his background? Maybe his parents were Muslim or grandparents.

It is strange that I could not find anything on his background e.g. birthdate, place of birth or his families background.

No one knows another’s agenda for the choices they make, we can’t assume that he all of a sudden decided to become Muslim or if he did, it doesn’t seem that much thought or research was done.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
The inherent value of chastity and virginity are often associated with the Priesthood and the denial of this value has on occasion been cited by Priests who leave active Priestly ministry.

Therefore I see all the discussion of chastity and consecrated virginity on this thread as being relevant to the thread topic.

So I thought I’d add to the discussion (up to now I had just been reading the thread from an android but now I am at the computer and would like to add a few salient points to the topic of the value of consecrated virginity for the sake of God and His Kingdom).

Virginity IS a higher state objectively speaking.

The state of Consecrated Virginity is a higher calling than the married state in the OBJECTIVE order.

I’m not saying that is true for the SUBJECTIVE order.

Don’t confuse the “Objective Order” with the “Subjective Order”.
  • Objective Order = Irrespective of me
  • Subjective Order = Concerning ME personally
In other words, God may be calling (or has called you) YOU personally to the married life.

You should DO God’s will.

Marriage would be the highest calling for YOU, because that’s God’s will for you.

But in the OBJECTIVE order (not subjective), Virginity is a higher calling than marriage.

The Catholic Church extols virginity.

SESSION 24 COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON X - If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

The allegations of the Catholic Church forcing people in the middle ages (earlier on this thread) to become consecrated virgins is non-sense.

Even if it were true, you can’t take a “vow” of virginity that is coerced. Why? Because if it is “coerced”, it is not a valid “vow”. A vow is something you do voluntarily.

Frankly I’d be surprised to see some real evidence that this was even attempted by Catholic people on a widespread basis. I assure you, it has NEVER been TAUGHT by the Catholic Church and to spread that idea would be to spread lies.

You will find NO official teaching from the Church that says: “Take children. FORCE them into a vow of chastity. FORCE them to become nuns and Priests.”

This is absolute non-sense.

Any one who has read anything about the lives of Saints, knows it was DIFFICULT to get into and remain in convents, monasteries, etc. as a member. Begin reading the life of St. Bernard of Clairvaux in the 1200’s (read about him here or translations of selected writings here) or St. Teresa of Avila (read about her here or read a translation of selected writings here).

The suggestion on this thread about the Catholic Church proverbially force-feeding consecrated virginity upon people in the “middle ages” is anti-Catholic, scurrilous, and deceitful.

Whether or not some Catholic PEOPLE “in the middle ages” (on a broad scale) tried to do this is also a lie as far as I can tell. Ahh yes. “The middle ages”.

I’ll address other aspects of Consecrated Virginity later on this thread as again, this topic IS related to Priests that leave the Church but also to lay Catholic people who leave the Church (“Why if us darn Catholics are going to teach this, . . . well . . . well I’m leaving!”).

The objections frequently arise from misunderstandings about this topic.

Then these misunderstandings spawn other topic-related erroneous objections and before you know it, presto-chango, you’ve got a new anti-Catholic (sometimes ostensibly still within the Catholic Church), trying to invent how “doctrines of demons” and the Catholic view of virginity are in fact the same.

I’ll try to post more later.

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
The married life is a high calling.

But with a consecrated call to chastity and virginity (I’ll loosely call this “consecrated virginity” here–not to be confused with “Consecrated Virgins” in the Church who are also gifted with this charism if they should accept it) you are already entering into a higher calling. You (in this life) are already entering into a heavenly existence in a sense.

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  • Why Is Consecrated Virginity A Higher Calling? Because Consecrated Virginity Is More “Toward Heaven” Already On This Earth
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Sometimes God gives us good things and allows some of us to “give them up” for the sake of Him. God always gives back in greater amounts. Many have said: “You cannot out-give God!”

This doesn’t mean those things we are giving up are “bad things”. But it is a tangible recognition of us acknowledging “better things.” It also doesn’t mean EVERYONE is called to live that way.

Fasting is kind of like that (admittedly not entirely analogous though). Food is good. We may give up food for a while or have bread and water for some meals so as to offer our bodies as a “sacrifice” to God (Romans 12:1). Jesus says his “disciples will fast” when the bridegroom is taken away (Mark 2:20).

Life itself is a great good too. Yet some are called to lay even this tremendous good down in martyrdom for the sake of God.

Sexuality can be like that too. St. Paul gives a situation where spouses can give up their sexuality temporarily or for a “season”. This CAN be good.
  • Food
  • Life Itself
  • Sexuality
But “Consecrated Virginity” is a higher state than those called to a non-virginal conjugal-married life. Again, “Consecrated” just means voluntarily dedicated or set apart for this holy purpose and ratified by the Church.

Consecrated Virginity is more toward “in the Resurrection” or more toward Heaven already on this earth.

MATTHEW 22:30 (DRV) For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Another name for “Consecrated Virginity” is “Virginity for the Kingdom of God”.

In the Mass, we see special veneration given to three different states in life. Virgins, Confessors (Priests), and Martyrs. Some people (i.e. St. Maximilian Kolbe) are gifted with all three.

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  • Virgins
**
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  • Confessors
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  • Martyrs
**

Recall “virgins” are men/women who have “made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven” (c.f. Matthew 19:12). Revelation 14 refers to people who are virgins.

REVELATION 14:1-5 1 Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps, 3 and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.

“Chaste” in Revelation 14:4 = “parthenos ” (parqenos) = “virgins”

REVELATION 14:4a It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste;

Literally “they are virgins”.

REVELATION 14:4a (NIV) It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins;

REVELATION 14:4 (New Jerusalem Bible) These are the sons who have kept their virginity and not been defiled with women; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they, out of all people, have been redeemed to be the first-fruits for God and for the Lamb.

Virginity is a very special GRACE that comes from the Lord Himself and should be greatly appreciated. Some who have this gift are unfortunately subjected to ridicule by their cohorts. Possibly in some cases this is really a manifestation of envy from these contemptuous peers.

More on next post . . . .
 
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