Priests with Wedding Rings

[Sarika]

On the contrary, our Eparchy has a small fraction of members compared to the Roman Archdiocese in the same area. So less money goes into the Church. Yet we are able to support married priests. They don’t really need a lot of money once you give them the housing which is usually part of the parish property. For kids, they can either go to public school or the Diocese can give them free education in the Catholic Schools of the diocese. Kind of like an “employee benefit”.

Out of curiosity, what is the average size of a Ukranian parish?

 

[Sarika]

Another thought: There are many different vocations and areas of service in our Church. Some require marriage, some require celibacy, some can include one or the other. Some can even include both (such as a “Josephite” marriage).

Personally, because of all of its challenges and demands of constant availability, priests should remain unmarried.

I’m not sure how I would like it if I were on my deathbed, in need of the last sacraments, and Father was unable to make it because he had to go to one of his kids’ soccer matches!

Likewise, marriage and children require a complete committment that a priest would not be able to give. It would be very unfair to the wife and the children.

 

[laszlo]

If more married men were applying to the diaconate I might think the Church should consider this. But they’re not.

In the US there are oven 10,000 permanent deacons almost all married, and the number of their ordinations matches the number of celibate priestly ordinations, Since they are only about 27,000 diocesan celibate priests, and their average age is over 60, soon the number of permanent deacons will exceed the number of priests.

The requirement for the celibacy in the Western church was introduced, when being priest meant to belong to the social elite. This condition stayed practically w/o interruption until recently. The requirement was good preselection, and there was abundant supply for the priesthood.

The condition changed, and the Church seems to gradually change the requirement. (see permanent deacons, and converted former ministers)

 

[PerfectTiming]

Likewise, marriage and children require a complete committment that a priest would not be able to give. It would be very unfair to the wife and the children.

When I was in RCIA the priest made this very point. He recounted his daily schedule to us and there was simply no room for a family. As I posted before a married man must devote himself to his family rather than just the Lord.

 

[paperwight66]

I’m not sure how I would like it if I were on my deathbed, in need of the last sacraments, and Father was unable to make it because he had to go to one of his kids’ soccer matches!

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Well, it would be the same situation if a surgeon expert in his/her field was called on to deal with a special case, surely? The family would know that there were priorities that over-rode family needs. I don’t think either a priest or a surgeon etc. would put a kids’ soccer match first over an emergency, nor many other professions.

If the married priest were truly unavailable (on holiday, for example) he’d have a replacement lined up, particularly when it came to the Last Rites. Would you really insist on having your own priest in those circumstances, anyway? I’d just be grateful to see any priest whatsoever.

 

[PbloPicasso]

It is true that the DISCIPLINE of a celibate priesthood is stated in the scriptures. But it was not mandated as we see today. In fact, it wasn’t mandated until about the 11th century, though the norm in some regions. I believe that like American’s have become somewhat pompous about “being the greatest nation in the world”, we, Western Catholics, otherwise erroniously referred to as Roman Catholics, have become exactly that pompous. We fail to recognize our Eastern brethren that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, Patriarch and leader of the Catholic Church. I’ve seen many Catholics drill Eastern Catholics on who’s best, which is severely misguided.

The discipline of whether married men are allowed to discern the priesthood has and will continue to be challenged and I often believe, from my own experiences in Catholic and Protestant formation, that the Lord is opening the door, for whatever reason. The discipline is prudent in some parts of the world more than others. Those areas should probably continue using celibate priests. Celibacy is a vocation in and of its own and is not required by God to be attached to the priesthood. However, the Holy Father, together with the communion of bishops, have been given the right to choose what is best for the flock. As long as we show the proper respect towards our church leaders, including deacons, we are okay. It’s when people try to tear down celibacy or visa versa that we run into problems.

Celibacy is still a mystery to many. It is a separeate vocation from the priesthood. Otherwise it would not be called a discipline. Note that all bishops are required to be celibate and none are allowed to that ministry. Further, one my be married prior to ordination. It is a very rare thing for any priest or deacon to be allowed to remarry. It is limited to extreme circumstance for those with young children, for example. However, the Church may relieve the ordained minister of his duties to the Church so that he can take care of his children properly. Parenting is a very difficult vocation to do alone.

 

[rick43235]

It seems to me that a man who is both ordained and married is being placed in an extremely problematic situation. Consider that a married person ought to be faithful and honest to the spouse and if faithfulness and honesty entails keeping no secret, how will a married priest handle the Sacramental Seal in the Sacrament of reconciliation?

I would argue that being faithful and honest with respect to your spouse does not necessarily entail keeping no secrets. For example, a good friend of mine recently retired from the military where he held a high rank with a top secret clearance. I’m sure he didn’t go running home every night to share military secrets with his wife - just as I’m sure a priest wouldn’t go running home to gossip about what he learned during confession.

There may be good reasons for a celibate priesthood, but this isn’t one of them.

 

[Sarika]

I’m still concerned about the divorce issue. Exactly what would happen in this case? For instance, if the wife insists on a divorce and wants to remarry? Or worse yet, when the priest wants to divorce.

Would a divorced priest be able to validly celebrate the Mass?

 

[PerfectTiming]

I’m still concerned about the divorce issue. Exactly what would happen in this case? For instance, if the wife insists on a divorce and wants to remarry? Or worse yet, when the priest wants to divorce.

Would a divorced priest be able to validly celebrate the Mass?

Exactly! There are just way too many issues.

 

[MacMcCarver]

Bravo!

I’d also add that abolishing celibacy would be perceived by the world as a surrender to the “sexual revolution.” The media would interpret the end of celibacy as an admission that it was abnormal and/or a reason for the scandals. Look what happened with His Holiness’ statements on HIV and condoms.

To gain a temporary uptick in vocations (which would fade once everybody realizes that priesthood, even with a wife and family, is a totally sacrificial life), the Church would lose its most powerful witness: men who are so committed to the Kingdom of Heaven that they even give up the joy of a spousal love to serve it.

Let’s hope it never happens.

God bless and ICXC NIKA.

I don’t think it would be a surrender. The absolute priestly celibacy was only established universally at the Council of Trent, when the Church was trying to reassert itself in the face of schism. I think many today would perhaps see it as the Church becoming a little more human.

If more married men were applying to the diaconate I might think the Church should consider this. But they’re not.

Nearly all the deacons I know are married.

The “proposed reversal”? No such creatue.

Actually, there have been several proposed reversals. Here is one from earlier this year, where a group of theologians drafted a statement calling for the reversal of some of the current Church practices: germerica.net/node/5958
These type of statements are drafted by various groups every so often; the Vatican acknowledges some of them replies in the negative.

 

[Chatter163]

I don’t think it would be a surrender. The absolute priestly celibacy was only established universally at the Council of Trent, when the Church was trying to reassert itself in the face of schism. I think many today would perhaps see it as the Church becoming a little more human.

Nearly all the deacons I know are married.

Actually, there have been several proposed reversals. Here is one from earlier this year, where a group of theologians drafted a statement calling for the reversal of some of the current Church practices: germerica.net/node/5958
These type of statements are drafted by various groups every so often; the Vatican acknowledges some of them replies in the negative.

You’d best review your Church history. Celibacy was around long before Trent. And the group cited is not anything that can be termed a “proposed reversal.” It is just another media-hungry group of dissidents, nothing more.

 

[GEddie]

Well, it would be the same situation if a surgeon expert in his/her field was called on to deal with a special case, surely? The family would know that there were priorities that over-rode family needs. I don’t think either a priest or a surgeon etc. would put a kids’ soccer match first over an emergency, nor many other professions.

But the families of physicians are aware that such cases outweigh family needs. Everybody has had body problems and so they understand. A priestly family might not, and there would be conflict.

Would the wife and family of a priest undergo formation along with Father/Daddy?

If the married priest were truly unavailable (on holiday, for example) he’d have a replacement lined up, particularly when it came to the Last Rites. Would you really insist on having your own priest in those circumstances, anyway? I’d just be grateful to see any priest whatsoever.

After all, priests do leave town, sometimes often, without being married. And, chances are, you’ll be too unconscious, breathless, etc, to really care who is there.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Here is the positive opinion of the Friar Preacher who was the Master General of the Dominican Order from 1992-2001 (ironically, even if clerical celibacy were abolished, he would not be able to marry, being a friar):

kbroszko.dominikanie.pl/andrew/timothy_priest.htm

I myself am conflicted on the issue. On the one hand, the Church allowed married clergy in the West for around one thousand years before Lateran IV absolutely banned it. It allows a greater spread of men to fulfill a broad vocation, mixing all aspects of life in holiness. On the other hand, Catholic missionary-priests were able to spread the holy religion so far and wide (during the period 1492-1789, at least) expressly because they were not tied down. Priests who remain unmarried have that aura of solitary consecration that seems beautiful in of itself; naturally, though, a lifting of the ban would not necessarily force all priests to marry. It might discourage those with a real vocation, though, in that they might perceive a broadening of the Office and a diminution of its holiness (somehow).

 

[Corki]

Actually, there have been several proposed reversals. Here is one from earlier this year, where a group of theologians drafted a statement calling for the reversal of some of the current Church practices: germerica.net/node/5958
These type of statements are drafted by various groups every so often; the Vatican acknowledges some of them replies in the negative.

A quote from your link.

“The Church needs married priests and women in the ministry,” the group wrote.They also called for acceptance of same-sex partnerships and divorce, in a radical departure from current Catholic thought.

This is not a serious proposal regarding celibacy. It’s just another dissident group wanting to dismantle Church teaching. They don’t even understand the differences between doctrinal teaching a disciplinary policies.

 

[PJM]

=MacMcCarver;7974782]I’ve been curious lately about the opinion of fellow Catholics about the proposed reversal of the Church’s stance on priestly celibacy in the wake of the Traditional Anglican Communions and the terrible sex abuse scandal. What are your thoughts? Should married men be considered for candidacy for ordination?

ONLY as is current practice S THE EXCEPTION to a most prudent RULE known BEFORE taking Vows.

HISTORY HAS PROVEN that serving “two masters” may be possible BUT with the certituewrought of history, is VERY DIFFICULT. Which would you have suffer? The priest family or the Priest FLOCK:shrug:

THAT is the point is it not?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Sarika]

Does anyone out there have any thoughts about the issue of divorced priests? I really don’t know what would happen in this instance.

 

[GEddie]

Does anyone out there have any thoughts about the issue of divorced priests? I really don’t know what would happen in this instance.

My one thought on the subject is, “Let’s keep celibacy and not deal with it!”

Think about it. Fr. gets divorced, because he and his wife are at “different places in their lives.” This happens every year in the general society, after all.

He then gets remarried, has kids with the new lady.

He is now in what amounts to a permanent state of sin, but he remains a priest.

What would that do to those he counsels for marriage? To the kids he teaches CCD to?

And what would the Church incur all this trouble for? To surmount a temporary priest shortage? To address a totally unrelated church scandal?

I pray that the dissidents are not listened to for a LONG time.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Sarika]

I suppose if the priest became divorced, he might no longer be able to continue on actively in that capacity. By the way, who will be paying for the alimony?

 

[PbloPicasso]

I suppose if the priest became divorced, he might no longer be able to continue on actively in that capacity. By the way, who will be paying for the alimony?

I hope you meant that as a joke. Comments like that make us look pretty lame IMHO. Just like Protestants the preacher will be the one paying for the alimony I presume, otherwise the children will be paying for the rest of it with their lives.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Out of curiosity, what is the average size of a Ukranian parish?

Depends. Out here in the West, its relatively small. In Ontario and Manitoba, there are more Ukrainians and thus bigger congregations.