"Primacy of Honour"

[semper_catholicus]

I’ve changed this thread from Eastern Catholicism to Traditional Catholicism in an attempt to get more of a response.

Alright,

I’ve recently been studying Eastern Orthodoc arguments about the Papacy. They usually come out with something like: “Oh, well he only had a Primacy of Honour, not jurisdiction,” or “He is the first among equals.” You bring up Matt 16:18-19, and they say: “Yeah, well the keys were given to ALL the Apostles,” followed by a quote from some Church Father supporting it.

I was wondering if any of you might be able to list some counter-arguments to these arguments? If so, would you please be so kind as to share them with me? It would be greatly appreciated!

Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!

 

[pablope]

Alright,

I was wondering if any of you might be able to list some counter-arguments to these arguments? If so, would you please be so kind as to share them with me? It would be greatly appreciated!

Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!

Library : Origins of the Catholic Church

Origins of the Catholic Church Fr. Edward Berbusse uses specific examples from early Church history to support his thesis that the Pope has always been viewed as the final authority in matters of faith and morals. He also discusses Cardinal John Henry Newman's teaching on the development of...

www.catholicculture.org

Library : Byzantium and the Roman Primacy

Byzantium and the Roman Primacy An examination of the position which the Byzantine Church took on the Primacy of Peter from earliest times on up to the period when the estrangement between East and West occured.

www.catholicculture.org

https://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/chwordin1.htm#02

D. Extraordinary Power Of Organization And Of Government; Peter’s Power Compared With That Of The Other Apostles

 

[straykat]

The pope wouldn’t necessarily have jurisdiction if these other patriarchates had cleaned their house. Rome proved to be very resilient to heresies though, that were dragging other churches into chaos. Some Arians and Monophysites even held Patriarch positions. It was the average priests and laity themselves that looked to Rome to help bring these churches back into orthodoxy. So I’d say it was more than a mere symbolic title, in practice.

 

[Genesis315]

These questions might be a good starting point. What does primacy of honor mean? Is it just who gets the most flattery? Is it something with any real consequences in the government of the Church? Why does it matter? Why is it even a thing? Why does Rome even have have a primacy of honor in the first place? Why did it retain it for so long?

 

[straykat]

Both Catholics and Orthodox agree it had a primacy in the first place for the same reason: Peter

But they disagree on what primacy means.

 

[dochawk]

The pope wouldn’t necessarily have jurisdiction if these other patriarchates had cleaned their house.

This.

Specifically, in the settling of disputes. In the first millennium, it was more of what we would today call “appellate” jurisdiction, rather than the “immediate” jurisdiction claimed today.

Is it just who gets the most flattery?

• sputter *

It’s the phrasing of the extreme Orthodox position, parallel to the claim of universal immediate jurisdiction.

Moral authority and example were critical in the early papal role–much as thy have been for the last couple of popes and their influence outside of Catholicism.

Both Catholics and Orthodox agree it had a primacy in the first place for the same reason: Peter

Sort of. Many Orthodox claim it’s the dual martyrdoms of Peter and Paul occurring in Rome. Generally, they claim that the Petrine Ministry is shared by all bishops, not just Rome (and don’t ask me to explain every last bishop sharing in a ministry that the other 10 apostles didn’t . . .)

hawk

 

[ziapueblo]

Greetings,

Read Synodality and Primacy During the First Millennium: Towards a Common Understanding in Service to the Unity of the Church.

Conclusion

1. Throughout the first millennium, the Church in the East and the West was united in preserving the apostolic faith, maintaining the apostolic succession of bishops, developing structures of synodality inseparably linked with primacy, and in an understanding of authority as a service (diakonia) of love. Though the unity of East and West was troubled at times, the bishops of East and West were conscious of belonging to the one Church.
2. This common heritage of theological principles, canonical provisions and liturgical practices from the first millennium constitutes a necessary reference point and a powerful source of inspiration for both Catholics and Orthodox as they seek to heal the wound of their division at the beginning of the third millennium. On the basis of this common heritage, both must consider how primacy, synodality and the interrelatedness between them can be conceived and exercised today and in the future.

ZP

 

[straykat]

Sort of. Many Orthodox claim it’s the dual martyrdoms of Peter and Paul occurring in Rome. Generally, they claim that the Petrine Ministry is shared by all bishops, not just Rome (and don’t ask me to explain every last bishop sharing in a ministry that the other 10 apostles didn’t . . .)

Ah, I stand corrected. I thought Paul was mostly associated with Antioch.

 

[dochawk]

Ah, I stand corrected. I thought Paul was mostly associated with Antioch.

It’s Peter that has the multiple associations: Jerusalem, Antioch, and Rome.

There are extant papal writings stating that the three are actually a single see, and sharing the Petrine Ministry. I don’t have a cite handy (and I’ve probably botched the paraphrase, too!)

hawk